Power enhancement ideas

[jonlabree]

I am now working on a way to turbo both banks. My muffler guy is going to make a mount between the front and back header, and reroute the exhaust.

Right now, I'm looking for a large turbo for it.

[2seater]

3 hours ago, 63viking said:

I am now working on a way to turbo both banks. My muffler guy is going to make a mount between the front and back header, and reroute the exhaust.

Right now, I'm looking for a large turbo for it.

I know I am getting far afield from the topic but I would be interested to see what he comes up with. I have always had issues with getting the exhaust back out of the engine bay due to the limited room between the anti-lock and the rear corner of the block. Getting exhaust to the turbo or getting a down pipe from the turbo are not a problem, doing both at the same time has given me fits.

[jonlabree]

You want my secret eh?

Well I'll tell you that I have reworked the rear header.

[2seater]

1 hour ago, 63viking said:

You want my secret eh?

Well I'll tell you that I have reworked the rear header.

I'm sure it will entail substantial rework. I have reworked several myself, and I know this isn't an easy project, so of course it piqued my curiosity. I would guess others may be interested as well. Is this going to be twin-charged, adding the turbo to an already supercharged engine? I don't know of anyone that has done such a thing in a Reatta.

[jonlabree]

I don't know if this engine could handle both. I really don't want to blow it as I have too much into it.

I'm thinking it will have to be a hot one with no intercooler. I can't see a way to incorporate one. Every 90%

turn you put into the pipe you lose boost.

I also thought of just turboing the front bank as you have and adding it into the supercharger.

But I think that might be too hard on the engine also.

[89RedDarkGrey]

Do you have a water/methanol injection system installed? That can sometimes take the place of an intercooler. Here where I live- we have washer fluid that's rated -20F for Winter, and only $2 a gallon.

[2seater]

Interesting ideas all. Maybe this should be its own topic if desired to pursue further. Always happy to share.

[89RedDarkGrey]

4 hours ago, 63viking said:

'm thinking it will have to be a hot one with no intercooler. I can't see a way to incorporate one. Every 90%

turn you put into the pipe you lose boost.

 

Jon- please go to YouTube, and type in the Search- "Rear mounted turbo". There are many videos of proven designs, of an incredibly strange, but totally logical concept. After watching a few- hopefully you'll wonder as I do- why does everyone insist on installing the turbo within inches of the hot exhaust?

[Ronnie]

6 hours ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

why does everyone insist on installing the turbo within inches of the hot exhaust?

 

I believe the reason is to reduce turbo lag. Having the turbo bolted directly to the exhaust manifold would be ideal. Throttle response is improved by having the expanding hot exhaust gases get to the turbo immediately in order for it to spin up quickly and start building boost . The further you mount the turbo from the exhaust manifold the more turbo lag you will have. 2seater might chime in. I'm sure he knows a lot more about this than I do.

[jonlabree]

Thanks 89RedDarkGray, I will do that.

And Yes I have water methanol injection to keep the supercharger cool..

[2seater]

2 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Just a suggestion... If you would like to start a new topic about turbos I think I can move the turbo  posts in this thread over to the new topic and maybe we can pick up where we left off here.

I am good with doing that but there hasn't been a lot of interest in the past. Not a criticism, just that there is a greater interest in plug and play parts and accessories. Perhaps a boosted thread? There are many different ways of force feeding, including chemically with nitrous. There was that other system, electrical I think, that came up over on ROJ too.

[89RedDarkGrey]

4 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Just a suggestion... If you would like to start a new topic about turbos I think I can move the turbo  posts in this thread over to the new topic and maybe we can pick up where we left off here.

 

This almost fits in a thread titled "Modifying"

 

4 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I believe the reason is to reduce turbo lag.

 

Yes, that is what everyone thought- until the experiments were done, and the concept was more refined. Our atmosphere can be thought of as a fluid, too- especially when compressed and cooled. With fluid dynamics- volume is a key. With some of the applications- there's not even a need for an intercooler; the long aluminum pipe is a heat sink. Many of the systems also use "water to air" coolers (basically an AC evaporator on top of the intake, between air charge). You must watch the videos I suggested to learn what I'm talking about. Go to YouTube, type "rear mounted turbo".

[2seater]

There are many ways to accomplish boost. Squires, or STS, is/was one of the rear mount proponents. I saw an install on a Corvette on one of the Saturday morning car shows. It  certainly worked, replaced the mufflers. There are a few questions to answer when looking over locating a turbocharger outside the engine bay: can it be protected from damage, is there a source for cool clean inlet air to the compressor, is there room to run a 2.5"ish compressor outlet pipe back to the engine air inlet and finally, feed oil to the center section and return it to the engine. The last one will likely require a scavenge pump to pump the oil back to the pan since the turbo rotating assembly cannot be pressurized on the drain side of the bearings. 

Edit: I have given this some serious thought about trying the rear mount on my Ranger pickup. There is a lot of room under the bed, room for air inlet in a rear wheel housing, similar to the stock air inlet of the front wheelwell, lots of room to run a discharge pipe under the cab outside the frame and over the right front wheel to connect to the stock air filter housing. The only hurdle is the oiling system. A work in thought process 

Edited January 16, 2018 by 2seater (see edit history)

[89RedDarkGrey]

18 minutes ago, 2seater said:

The only hurdle is the oiling system.

 

STS has that covered, too. They've revamped their entire operation. Unveiling soon, early 2018. Check out their website. Their "kits" and separate components are quite impressive. I can't wait to see the new stuff.

[2seater]

1 hour ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

 

STS has that covered, too. They've revamped their entire operation. Unveiling soon, early 2018. Check out their website. Their "kits" and separate components are quite impressive. I can't wait to see the new stuff.

I guess this sort of system does qualify as a performance muffler, so it' s in the right place. I am familiar with some of the STS products and they have been around for many years. I only mentioned some of the items to be examined as a package, not in isolation. I will be interested to see how an oil-less system would work so I don't dismiss anything out of hand. Just for reference, a moderate sized turbo, such as used on a GN, has a minimum cross section of 7.75", so about twice as thick as a common 4" case muffler. It's funny how large things become when trying to fit them in limited space  If this is rear or undercar mounted, I do not see how that is cool clean air. It sure hasn't been in my experience? I am probably not qualified to comment further as I have no direct experience with this system.

[2seater]

I do not know if a turbocharger fed from only one-half of the engine exhaust will be powerful enough to provide enough flow to enhance the existing supercharger. Your engine already has a greater demand than a standard normally aspirated will have. I think the compound boost is an intriguing idea but is above my pay grade at this point. It may be that the already supercharged engine with it's greater output will drive the turbocharger more forcefully to provide useful boost but I would suggest contacting one of the specialists to get some suggestions.

 

I do know there are one or two current production engines that use a system like that but no other detail. The higher output 2-stroke Detroit Diesels also used a variation of a supercharger as a scavenge pump and a large turbocharger to feed into the supercharger but I believe it used a bypass valve that rerouted some of the turbo boost past the supercharger once it had spooled up. The supercharger provided the startup and low load air supply and then the turbo took over at higher speed and load.

 

My very low boost turbo setup is an attempt to find a relatively simple, low cost, installation that provides useful improvement. It is fed from the front manifold only and exhausts into the existing rear manifold, so only two pipes need be modified or fabricated. This was a screenshot of a recording I did when I was testing this installation. This was approx. 4 psi of boost indicated and should be in the area of 215-225 hp. This was my bone stock engine save for two modifications, it had a 1988 camshaft and the rear manifold restriction was removed. The exhaust did have a modern replacement cat. and a straight through muffler, otherwise stock 2.25" diameter. As can be seen, this is still likely below the level of 63Vikings supercharged engine without help.

  

[handmedownreatta]

isn't the grand national the same engine?i suppose there's not enough room to use its turbo system.

[2seater]

1 hour ago, handmedownreatta said:

isn't the grand national the same engine?i suppose there's not enough room to use its turbo system.

It is similar but the 3800 has evolutionary changes that make it quite different. Some of the GN's systems can be adapted but the biggest difference is we are front wheel drive vs rwd, so room is definitely an issue as you surmise. I do use parts from an early GN turbo, including the wastegate.  The exhaust manifolds might fit with some work but would probably point in the wrong directions, requiring similar rework to just using ours as the base.

[Ronnie]

8 hours ago, 2seater said:

My very low boost turbo setup is an attempt to find a relatively simple, low cost, installation that provides useful improvement. It is fed from the front manifold only and exhausts into the existing rear manifold, so only two pipes need be modified or fabricated.

 

I really like that idea. Does it require changes to the PROM to make it work? Can a stock MAF and O2 sensor be used with this setup?

[jonlabree]

I just can't get my head around turboing half of the engine.

[2seater]

4 hours ago, Ronnie said:

 

I really like that idea. Does it require changes to the PROM to make it work? Can a stock MAF and O2 sensor be used with this setup?

Only testing would tell if the stock prom will work unmodified. I know my present setup is very close to stock, but I have tried so many variations, I must admit I have lost track without going through the archives. It may only require using a bit better fuel. Boost starts to show up at relatively high rpm where the engine will tolerate it better. That was my intention as it is much easier on other parts. The MAF and O2 are all stock and in stock locations. The MAF is about at the upper limit in the screenshot and the injectors are right at their limit.

[2seater]

24 minutes ago, 63viking said:

I just can't get my head around turboing half of the engine.

I was unsure about trying this too but I saw either Saab, or maybe Volvo, had an engine right around the turn of the millennium that did this. I could never really find any details of how it was done, but I am pretty sure it is engineered beyond what I can accomplish. I asked a custom cam maker if the idea was feasible with our stock camshaft which has almost zero overlap, so backpressure wouldn't be a problem. As he put it, the engine will act as if half turbo and half supercharged and should work. The turbocharger in my sig. is actually from a 2.3liter Ford turbo Thunderbird.

[2seater]

I intended to start a thread to invite comment about what some have done to enhance performance. I have some experience in a limited area but there is a wealth of other modifiers out there that may have been lost in time and are way beyond my small experience. Things like engine swaps, nitrous oxide, gear ratio changes when rebuilding, manual transaxles, air intakes, new injectors and exhaust mods. Not a complete list by any means. Even things like aerodynamics. 

[89RedDarkGrey]

53 minutes ago, 2seater said:

I was unsure about trying this too but I saw either Saab, or maybe Volvo, had an engine right around the turn of the millennium that did this.

 

1991 Saab 900s

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, 2seater said:

Only testing would tell if the stock prom will work unmodified. I know my present setup is very close to stock,

 

If no tuning changes were needed there might be a (small) demand for a bolt-on turbo kit if it was just a matter of changing pipes. I'm sure I'm over simplifying what would need to be done but I like the idea of a turbo kit that would add a little zip to the Reatta engine without stressing the transmission too much.

[2seater]

I wish it wasn't winter here to give more detail. The car is put away miles from home so I can't get at the chip to check for differences. I will look in my old garage laptop to see if I can decipher what I am running right now. I am sure I modified the chip for 24# injectors from a Jeep. They are Bosch type 3's. The stock prom will run them, the O2 sensor will adjust through the integrator and block learn, but readings will be off. Sort of related: a second '88 replacement camshaft came in the mail today and will be going into the engine in the car now. It is interesting that these were almost impossible to find in the replacement market a decade ago but turn up from time to time now, and they are inexpensive.

 

[2seater]

This is a pic of the half-turbo being mocked up. No laughing at the props and welding  The throttle body is from an early aluminum TPI manifold on an adapter plate for the stock manifold but there is no real advantage to using one aside from the IAC is in a different location to provide more room underneath. It flows similar to the stock one but the throttle body and MAF are one integrated unit. My sig picture is the same setup except I used the entire TPI manifold and the turbo runs through a front mount intercooler so the piping looks different. The intercooler was already in place but is not needed for this application and will not be used in the future as well as the TPI manifold will likely be changed back to stock also. Aside from the piping change, it does need an oil drain plumbed to the oil pan and no wastegate is used at all.

 

 

 

[89RedDarkGrey]

I really like that custom manifold vacuum block you've made. Could you please elaborate on it- PM me some closeups? Is it billet? Thank you.

[2seater]

2 minutes ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

I really like that custom manifold vacuum block you've made. Could you please elaborate on it- PM me some closeups? Is it billet? Thank you.

Old eagle eye at work. I guess it would be considered billet since it is just a solid piece of scrap aluminum. I try to collect thick pieces like that wherever I can find them for just such a use. I think it is about 1" thick and all the custom machining is done in a drill press. Just drill all the way through the appropriate size for 1/8" npt and tap both sides for hose nipples. Drill partway up from the bottom to form an interconnecting chamber. It's bulletproof and allows you to get rid of that large 1/2" hose to the non-existent brake booster, or add a vacuum/boost gauge in the cabin. 

[89RedDarkGrey]

WTB: 1 custom vacuum block...

[Ronnie]

The piping isn't near as complicated as I thought it might be. I wonder how hard it would be for a muffler shop to duplicate if you took your pipes to them?

[handmedownreatta]

4 hours ago, 2seater said:

I intended to start a thread to invite comment about what some have done to enhance performance. I have some experience in a limited area but there is a wealth of other modifiers out there that may have been lost in time and are way beyond my small experience. Things like engine swaps, nitrous oxide, gear ratio changes when rebuilding, manual transaxles, air intakes, new injectors and exhaust mods. Not a complete list by any means. Even things like aerodynamics. 

i always like a discussion of things that work,plus suggestions that might make it work even better.

 

[2seater]

2 hours ago, Ronnie said:

The piping isn't near as complicated as I thought it might be. I wonder how hard it would be for a muffler shop to duplicate if you took your pipes to them?

I will see if I have more pics. The lower pipe from the front exhaust ports is the stock manifold. It was cut off about 6" from the outlet, which is a curved section, and the end was rotated to point where I wanted it to go and then re-welded. The elbow up into the turbine is the mating end of the stock crossover pipe. Since the ball type joint is still there, it gives a little flexibility to make small adjustments before it is tightened up. The crossover pipe which reconnects to the rear manifold is custom made but it doesn't need to be especially beautiful.  Check radiator hose clearance and of course the throttle body. Heat shield as needed. The flanges for the turbine inlet and outlet are available from multiple sites. This is a Garret T3 rectangular inlet for a Ford which has a specific five bolt pattern for the outlet side. I use no wastegate so the outlet plate can be a blank one with just the exhaust hole.

[2seater]

1 hour ago, handmedownreatta said:

i always like a discussion of things that work,plus suggestions that might make it work even better.

 

I agree completely and am hoping to encourage everyone to share. I have made my share of mistakes along the way. For example, I rebuilt a junkyard engine as a spare and raised the compression a little and liked it. Then I got the idea to turbocharge it. What I had done to raise the compression was just the wrong thing to do to add boost and actually contributed to making it more knock sensitive . It's a journey and more company is always welcome.

[2seater]

3 hours ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

WTB: 1 custom vacuum block...

I think I have one made from a block of black nylatron too. I'll look around.

[89RedDarkGrey]

9 minutes ago, 2seater said:

nylatron

 

who?

[Ronnie]

11 minutes ago, 2seater said:

I will see if I have more pics. The lower pipe from the front exhaust ports is the stock manifold. It was cut off about 6" from the outlet, which is a curved section, and the end was rotated to point where I wanted it to go and then re-welded. The elbow up into the turbine is the mating end of the stock crossover pipe. Since the ball type joint is still there, it gives a little flexibility to make small adjustments before it is tightened up. The crossover pipe which reconnects to the rear manifold is custom made but it doesn't need to be especially beautiful.  Check radiator hose clearance and of course the throttle body. Heat shield as needed. The flanges for the turbine inlet and outlet are available from multiple sites. This is a Garret T3 rectangular inlet for a Ford which has a specific five bolt pattern for the outlet side. I use no wastegate so the outlet plate can be a blank one with just the exhaust hole.

 

There was a time when I would have jumped right on this but that was in another lifetime.   I had a house with a two car attached garage and a two car unattached garage where I did this kind of stuff. I worked in a large machine shop where I could use any of the machines I wanted to do what we called "Government jobs" in our free time which were actually our own projects. Now I only have an attached garage that stays full of cars and I no longer have access to a machine shop since I retired. All I can do now is dream and talk about it. That's one reason I like treads like this. You should be proud of what you have accomplished by designing and building your own turbocharged 3800 engine.

[2seater]

3 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

 

There was a time when I would have jumped right on this but that was in another lifetime.   I had a house with a two car attached garage and a two car unattached garage where I did this kind of stuff. I worked in a large machine shop where I could use any of the machines I wanted to do what we called "Government jobs" in our free time which were actually our own projects. Now I only have an attached garage that stays full of cars and I no longer have access to a machine shop since I retired. All I can do now is dream and talk about it. That's one reason I like treads like this. You should be proud of what you have accomplished by designing and building your own turbocharged 3800 engine.

I know what you mean about lack of access to materials and fabrication. I used to be surrounded by all kinds of useful things and my stock is slowly disappearing. Sure I enjoy what I do but it is as much therapy as anything. Fiddling with an obsolete engine,  sort of an orphan among family members, is primarily looking for that sweet spot where it just feels stronger, but not really artificial. Everything is done with simple saws, files, drill press and a small mig welder in my garage. This is that front manifold, a better silicone elbow stuck on an old MAF housing. There is a 1/2" plate on the throttle body end of the MAF that was used to test a remote mount for the MAF, like locating it at the inlet to the turbo, more like the GN uses. Results are better blowing air into it.

 

[2seater]

42 minutes ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

 

who?

Graphite impregnated nylon. It was used as wear plates and guides for aerial ladders. Cuts, drills and taps really well.

[2seater]

I found this thanks to 89RDG's post for where/when this system started. Looking further it is obvious it was well thought out with not only a conventional wastegate but also a second one operated by the knock sensor. That lets the turbine to be sized smaller so it is always spinning fairly hard to provide a torque increase throughout, but with a safety net to prevent destruction. It only provided a maximum of 6-7psi and the most I have seen with the T3 from a turbo T'Bird is 4 psi, and that's at higher rpm.

 

1995

Saab announces the world's first asymmetrically-turbocharged engine. The turbo is fitted only to the front cylinder bank of a transversely-installed 3.0-liter V6, but delivers its charge to both. The light-pressure turbocharger is extremely small and integrated in the exhaust manifold for efficient packaging. It delivers 30 per cent more torque, which allows high gearing for reduced fuel consumption together with impressive pulling power.