BRENT in 10-uh-C Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Using the car pictured below as an example, what determines eligibility for a vehicle to participate on an AACA Reliability Tour? Naturally someone just calling it a 'Pre-1916' does not make it so, ...and so often a Speedster's mechanical parts are not the most pure-bred either, so what specifically is the minimum standard/level of parts that makes it acceptable in AACA's eyes? (Here is a video that might show a little more detail of the car)https://youtu.be/vYZ8uQ0VkiA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) Great question, it looks like a "1914 - 1915" Model T Speedster to me, hope the rules aren't made by Post WWII car owners. Bob Edited January 13, 2018 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) What I liked best was the age of the driver. GREAT to see the younger generation joining the old car fold. Hope he can be part of the fun! Edited January 14, 2018 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 There are a lot of neat and interesting vehicles that are not eligible for AACA events. I don't specifically know the answer to your question and I would suggest that you contact AACA headquarters. I am sure they will give you an answer or refer you to the appropriate individual for an answer. If I was to guess, I would say that this is the information that might help you figure it out. From the Policy and Procedure Manual - "Reliability Tour--The Reliability Tour is sponsored during even-numbered years for brass era cars, i.e., those manufactured in 1915 or earlier. This includes all recognized vehicles of that vintage." So, what is a recognized vehicle of that vintage? For AACA purposes, I would think that the most appropriate category of vehicle that a Speedster might be would be a DPC vehicle. The Policy and Procedure Manual describes DPC as follows: "The DPC (Driver Participation Class) is for vehicles with minor modifications 25 years or older that have not obtained a national first prize. (A vehicle with national awards is eligible for DPC only if the awards – other than 2nd or 3rd Junior – are turned into AACA Headquarters.) Certification will be based on vehicle components that must have the same appearance as when the vehicle was manufactured. The body/engine/chassis/driveline components must be period correct per the original manufacturer. Exceptions could be halogen headlights, FM radio, seat belts, turn signals, and/or air conditioning units from the period. Originality of all components is more important than their condition. This is a noncompetitive category and will not be judged but will be eligible for driver certification. A driver tab will be issued to each vehicle upon certification; a participation award will be given at certification and at each subsequent meet for attendance. A DPC certified vehicles that is significantly modified will lose its’ DPC certification. DPC certification remains with the vehicle even if there is a change of ownership." I would suggest that the operative words are "vehicle components that must have the same appearance as when the vehicle was manufactured." Did Ford manufacture a 1915 or earlier Model T with a Speedster style body? If I was attempting to answer your question, my answer would be Yes or No, depending on the answer to that question. If Ford manufactured a 1915 or earlier T with a speedster type body, it should be tour eligible. If not, then I would say it is not tour eligible. Brent, I think I know the answer to my question. I will defer to you and the other Model T experts on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) I see you matched all the wheels and raised the gas tank for the steep hills. May I add a wise move on the accessory braking system with your light weight and two speed rear end. Edited January 14, 2018 by Joe in Canada (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Very interesting question. While Brent is raising it regarding a Model T, speedsters are kind of popular now and some very nice examples of period design have been built on pricier chassis. Interestingly this question was asked of hcca and I think they welcome speedster on tours provided they are period correct. Smart move, imho. Here's ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Speedsters many times save a car/chassis that would normally be scrapped out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 minute ago, Larry Schramm said: Speedsters many times save a car/chassis that would normally be scrapped out. I toyed with the idea of creating a speedster or pickup out of a 1938 Buick Special chassis since I have an extra one from the body donor car for my current restoration. I hope to find someone who needs the chassis so I won't be tempted to do that. It would be a lot of extra work for something that I won't really have storage space for anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) I was interested in a 12 Reo roadster last year but anything with two seats the wife always puts up a fuss. I would love to build a speedster. Edited January 14, 2018 by Joe in Canada (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) There are more Speedsters today than there were back in the Model T era, the most famous being the one Ford entered in the New York to Seattle Race. Replica or clone a very nice one just sold.. Bob https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1909-FORD-MODEL-T-RACER-178649 Edited January 14, 2018 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Bond Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I have seen speedsters on the Reliability Tour before. They were of the era the tour recognizes and properly registered as vehicles of the appropriate year. Ford sold a bare chassis to anyone who wanted to build their own truck, race car ( or speedster) and there were many companies back in those days who made bodies to use on the Model T Chassis. Terry 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 The Rootlieb Bearcat/Mercer style bodies are still popular but some guys turning out very high quality repro bodies as Terry points out. These cars seem to be in a space between a 100% authentic brass car and a hot rod, if that makes any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) Although many pre-1916 vehicles with modified drive trains have participated in reliability Tours in past years, I believe the intent is to remain in keeping with the original tours. To me, that means the vehicle should have an original drive train to include engine, ignition, transmission, & rear end as manufactured prior to 1916. Therefore, a speedster body style really should not matter. This is from the AACA site: AACA Reliability Tour The Reliability Tour is held during even-numbered years and is for brass era vehicles manufactured in 1915 and earlier. All AACA recognized vehicles of that vintage are permitted to take part. The Reliability Tour was designed many years ago to test the reliability of earlier vehicles. Edited January 14, 2018 by Mark Shaw (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Google The Great Race and find the photos of "Speedsters" that run in that event. I would hope this type of vehicle would NEVER be accepted in an AACA Tour. Too Clown Car like IMO. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe in Canada Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 What kind of turnout does the Reliability tour attract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I would think that a car would have to be eligible for class judging at an AACA National Meet to be eligible for National tours. Either we have rules or we don't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRENT in 10-uh-C Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 25 minutes ago, Restorer32 said: I would think that a car would have to be eligible for class judging at an AACA National Meet to be eligible for National tours. Either we have rules or we don't. Great point. Is AACA “recognized” and “eligible” the same thing or different?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 "Recognized" or "eligible", if you can't show it at an AACA National meet it should not be welcome on a tour. Just my opinion of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, Restorer32 said: "Recognized" or "eligible", if you can't show it at an AACA National meet it should not be welcome on a tour. Just my opinion of course. This is an old can of worms, Ford did sell bodyless chassis in the Model T era, and custom built or aftermarket bodies were available. A Model T station wagon or "Depot Hack' is OK with AACA, restored period piece or made from new lumber last year. I've always thought it was odd that a Syverson Depot Hack was OK but a Syverson Speedster wasn't, neither one is a dead on reproduction of a body from the T era. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I agree with Bob's post 14, and to clarify not advocating non period drivetrain when I made a more general observation about these cars straddling original and hot rod worlds. Bob I would think an old Syverson speedster would be of interest to many, aaca eligible or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRENT in 10-uh-C Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 49 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said: This is an old can of worms, Ford did sell bodyless chassis in the Model T era, and custom built or aftermarket bodies were available. A Model T station wagon or "Depot Hack' is OK with AACA, restored period piece or made from new lumber last year. I've always thought it was odd that a Syverson Depot Hack was OK but a Syverson Speedster wasn't, neither one is a dead on reproduction of a body from the T era. Bob Bob, FWIW, I received a private message that said on the past several tours, the Reliability tour has been held in conjunction with the Horseless Carriage Club of America, and as long as the engine and driveline were all HCCA eligible, then participation on the Reliability Tour should be acceptable. I also agree there are rules, and why have them if they are not going to be followed. Granted there are many that have clearly not followed those rules in the past, but that does not make ok for the future. Adding to this thought, the running gear seen above will probably be on the Reliability Tour this summer however it will have the original body back on it by then as this speedster body was built by my son in a few evenings as he wanted to drive a speedster on a few tours while the Touring body was being re-wooded, repainted, and reupholstered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capngrog Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 I'm a fan of the "Speedster" genre, but I know little about them. It seems to me that they are modified cars of a particular era, which would make them "Hot Rods" of a particular era. Are there rules as to what defines a "Speedster"? Cheers, Grog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) I think it's still a gray area, whoever sent Brent a PM did so for a reason, assume it's a non official stance and this may not be right venue to hash it out. Of course that's aaca or hcca only, as speedsters are popular but no formal clubs I am aware of exists to make any rules, so to speak. Somee of the best speedster builds date from the 40s, 50s on bigger chassis. Edited January 14, 2018 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Brent, Thanks for the additional info on the T Speedster. You would think AACA would welcome young members in NON JUDGING events with speedsters, heck of a lot cheaper that the Mustangs that are in every garage in America. Based on ones skills and buy in cost I think a lot of people could be on the road for 5-8 grand in a Black Radiator T. T's are fun and the T Speedster is a part of our automotive history. Bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Bob you just articulated what I was thinking. What a fun way to introduce younger hobbyists. Sporty, period, relatively inexpensive, easy enough to build at home, great training for a more involved restoration. Plenty of interest, I know it's not everyone's thing but check fb activity on this as well as our own forum. What's missing is a club type body to organize this growing part of the hobby. Seems like an opportunity for aaca or hcca. Why is our monthly online publication called "Speedster"? To get attention of course. Food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, Restorer32 said: Recognized" or "eligible", if you can't show it at an AACA National meet it should not be welcome on a tour. Not everybody participates in car shows or judged events. Club rules specific to tours are obviously needed. Unfortunately, several clubs do not post their rules or membership requirements on their websites. I know that the HCCA is often perceived as only a brass era (pre-1916 only) club. HCCA National tours are all pre-1916, but the HCCA also includes a nickel era registry and includes members with pre-1942 vehicles. And, local chapters can establish age requirements for regional tours. Edited January 15, 2018 by Mark Shaw (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 If the cost of a Model T "Show Car" and enclosed trailer to haul it to National Meets is unaffordable to future AACA "Younger Members", I can see how a T Speedster owner would join HCCA and go on their tours. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) I agree with you 100% , Bob. I do agree with the AACA 25 year old threshold , but we all know what antique cars are. The 25 year threshold gets a huge number of enthusiastic members involved , and gives them exposure to antique cars. AACA would be a very interesting place to be if only antique cars , basically the PRE pre-classic period , were the exclusive focus. Interesting place , yeah , but a very small one , primarily composed of senior citizens and old folk. Here is a young antique car fan , REAL antique , pre-16 antique. Every possible encouragement should be extended. Strength in NUMBERS , the 25 year bit , strength in ORIGINAL mission by supporting all REAL antique cars. Happy New Year to my 1993 Cadillac ! It just became antique ! I remember riding my bicycle to the ferry dock , and then pedaling another few miles on the other side to look at an antique car. It was 1959 , I was not quite 16 , and had my paper route savings in pocket. Newspaper provided me with the bucks , and the classified ads were titled "Antique and Classic Cars". REAL classic cars were actually advertised there. I remember a Cane body V16 Madame X Cadillac , WAY beyond my pay grade. Maybe a grand or so , grand and a half ? But the antiques of course , were much older. 1940s cars were just used cars. Pretty sure my 1939 Cadillac 60S was just in the "Used Cars" section. It cost $100. Of course , those were REAL dollars too ! "Younger Members" , "Older Cars". Here he is with a REAL ANTIQUE ! After all , Cad-LaSalle club now welcomes , supports and judges "Modifieds". I would think we could be as enlightened. - Carl Edited January 16, 2018 by C Carl Spelling & added 4 small words (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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