Need help identifying car body in 1909 picture with my grandfather!

[mkm5]

Good afternoon!

 

I came across a picture of my grandfather and some others around an old car body.

 

My mother had said the picture was from 1909, and that it was Henry Ford sitting in the back seat, but I posted the pic on the Model A forum and it does not appear it's actually Henry based on the responses there.

 

My grandfather is the tall fellow standing behind the center window, he was born in 1883 and was a woodworker.  He looks fairly young in this picture so the 1909 date may be accurate, but the car body looks later to me, like early 20s.

 

Any help identifying it would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Mike

[nzcarnerd]

I would guess the date at mid to late teens. The shape of the cowl where it meets the hood has hints of Dodge or Buick of that era but could be any one of many makes.

[retiredmechanic74]

2 minutes ago, nzcarnerd said:

I would guess the date at mid to late teens. The shape of the cowl where it meets the hood has hints of Dodge or Buick of that era but could be any one of many makes.

It looks British to me.

[nzcarnerd]

1 minute ago, retiredmechanic74 said:

It looks British to me.

The original poster didn't say where it was. Maybe an answer on that would help.

[mkm5]

Also, the picture was printed on large 7" x 12" paper, versus the typical post card style prints of the era.

 

I assumed there must have been some significance or reason of importance for why the picture was taken?

 

My mother said the picture was of a Ford vehicle with Henry Ford sitting in the back seat, so I figured it was taken in the US.

 

My grandfather came to the United States in 1907.

 

Thanks!

 

Mike

[46 woodie]

Well, I can't tell you what make that vehicle is but two things I can. First, It's not a Ford and second that's not old Henry in the back seat. If I had to guess, I would say that it is a custom body shop, that builds chauffeur driven car  bodies to be mounted on a production chassis.

[mkm5]

Interesting!  The guys on the Model A Forum agree with what you said, and suggested I inquire over here.

 

All the years I thought it was Henry!  Never had a reason not to, I thought it looked like him but must be because that's what I thought since I was a kid!

[Guest]

I see the car has no front door on the left side, much like W. McDonald's SD limo body (Brass Era Mystery thread) but the SD had no front door on the right hand side.

I would guess custom wood body as well. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by GregLaR (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Well, there MIGHT be a Henry in that picture, but not last name Ford!

 

Body looks aluminum, and is a town car.  Looks a lot like a circa 1920 Hudson limo/town car.

[Paul Dobbin]

Body style appears to be a Town Car, probably chauffeur driven by the looks of the open air front driver's compartment and divider window.  No left door also suggests British and possibly right hand drive.  I think MK5's mother was wrong about Henry too.  Possibly an Italian restoration shop photo or the first Popemobile prototype.

[mkm5]

Found this pic of a 1917 Hudson Super Six Town Car based on the comments here.

 

Not sure if this is US or not, but the driver's side door doesn't appear to be in operation on this one either, and the larger window opening looks similar too.

[CarlLaFong]

Wouldn't the lack of a left door indicate an American car? Early laws prohibited exiting a car from the left side. A chauffeur or cab driver would hop out on the right side to assist his passengers out of the car

[mkm5]

http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_145373-Hudson-Super-Six-1917.html

 

Description says US built car.

Edited January 8, 2018 by mkm5
correction (see edit history)

[46 woodie]

Henry was born in1863 so if that car is 1913 or thereabouts that would make that chap in the rear about 50 years old. I think mkm5 has the answer.

[wayne sheldon]

I may offend a few again. 

Having looked closely at literally thousands of original era photos of automobiles. And spending just a couple minutes comparing the two bodies (the OP body under construction, and the '17 Hudson posted later by mkm5 ), I am convinced they are NOT the same car. Although similar, the windshield is quite different, the door is slightly different, and the belting on the body is totally different.  While a few of those things could possibly have been changed (unlikely) between the time during construction, and the much later photo parked on the street? There is one other difference I see that would be more difficult to change, the roof-line in the first picture is nearly flat, while the roof-line on the Hudson in the street is quite curved.

That basic style of "town-car" was relatively common for more than two decades with only minor changes. Most of those bodies were built by custom coach builders, and could be ordered in sizes and specifications to fit basically ANY car chassis. I even saw a circa '17 Dodge Brothers version in an era photo once. Smaller ones survive on Ford chassis both in the USA and abroad. I have personally seen several Pierce Arrow open front limousines, as well as a couple '10s Packards, and others. Car companies such as Hudson, Chandler, and even Studebaker showed such bodies in some of their sales literature. Even with most of the larger production companies, such special bodies were generally built by custom coach builders. 

The body in the original post, based upon the shape of the cowl, could easily be anywhere from 1913 through 1922.  It would be possible to be either earlier, or later,  however, earlier cowls would likely be a bit smaller, while later cars of the '20s likely would have a slightly larger (and more squared off) cowl in fitting with the styling rules of the day. There were, however, some earlier and later exceptions to those rules.

 

The body being built in the original posting is, of course, too large to be intended for a Ford or even a Dodge. I would guess that it wouldn't fit on a Studebaker chassis either. Although, chassis were sometimes extended for special bodies in those days. Without a good size reference, it is difficult to speculate on what chassis it would end up on. But it does look to be for a larger car. Maybe for a Hudson (they did build more than one), or one of the three "P"s. However there were so many other wonderful marques it could have been for.

[Guest]

If you use the mans three fingers width as 3" then the length of the body from cowl to the back is about 12 feet.

[Larry Schramm]

With the partition inside between the driver and the passengers, it would definitely be an upper end custom body like a limousine.

[8E45E]

First off, my guess is that car body was NOT photographed in an automobile plant at that stage, but some high-end coach/bodybuilder like pre-GM Fisher, Fleetwood, LeBaron, etc.  (Too much hand-finishing going on to be a mass-production item.) 

 

Perhaps first identify who the coachbuilder is.

 

Craig

[Friartuck]

The belting/molding detail suggests it is not a Hudson. Could mkm5 comment on where his Grandfather lived, by state or town?

[Gunsmoke]

The "ghosting" in OP appears to outline the wood carcass below the belt-line including framing which might have been making allowances for a front door (LH vs RH) on this side. Guy sitting in rear is also curious since at this stage normally there would not be seats in car. As Friartuck says, give us some more details on the grandfather and that may help pinpoint a manufacturing business/factory. 

[60FlatTop]

It looks like an early taxi cab, maybe a Checker or Yellow cab. My Grandfather told me stories about driving them up into the early '20's. He came to Rochester from Croghan, NY, on the Tug Hill plateau where the U S Army holds Arctic training because there is a better chance of Arctic weather there than in the Arctic. So he knew cold. One of his stories is about a winter night fare into farm country, which is now an upscale suburb. Bleach and absolute cold in that open hack, the coldest he had ever been in his life.

 

I'd put my money on it being a taxi body.

Bernie

[mkm5]

Great info, thank you guys!

 

My grandfather came to the US through France and Ellis Island and settled in Detroit, then Highland Park, Michigan, and resided there from 1907 to 1920.  He was a woodworker/carpenter by trade.

 

He became a naturalized US citizen in 1917 at age 34 after 3 years of applications, and went back to Armenia through New York to France in December 1920 to bring his few remaining family members back to the United States in June 1921.

 

Interesting though, he registered for the US Army at the start of WWII at age 59 but did not serve I presume due to his age!

 

He resided the remainder of his life in Highland Park, Michigan and continued his trade as a carpenter and home builder throughout those years.

 

Mike

Edited January 9, 2018 by mkm5
capitalization correction (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

Already mentioned that there were many coach building companies that could have built the OP body. If one wants a better idea of just how many companies there were? Check Coachbuilt.com

I lost all my bookmarks in a computer crash a couple months ago, so don't have the actual address. Whether that auto-link put in by the computer will take you there or not? I do not know. As much as I personally do not like Mr Google, simply working with the name "Coachbuilt" should get you there with little effort.

Depending on how much you want to study what they offer, and how much you want to restrict your findings to strictly the desired body you are researching? One could spend anywhere from several minutes to many hours going through the information they offer. A lot of the information is little more than a name of a company, and maybe a partial location. Others, lead to a great deal of information and sometimes many photographs.

 

 

60FlatTop, I dislike disagreement. But I must. The OP photo could be, however, likely is not for a taxi cab. While the style is similar, taxis were generally on small to medium size chassis. Early electric (city) cabs were often on roughly 90 inch chassis. As bodies, chassis, and gasoline engines grew, the chassis became longer. By 1910, taxis were on chassis of about 100 inches or slightly more. Meanwhile, limousines were usually put on the largest chassis available in some luxury car. In 1910, that would be well over 110 inches, and getting longer fast. The model T Ford chassis was 100 inches, and a couple thousand of them were built for taxi use. Other cars used as cabs may have been slightly longer, but still, cab companies generally (in those days much like today) used standard midsize models modified for cab use. That modification may have included a custom open-front body, but still on a midsize chassis. Except for the model T cabs, most taxis from the mid '10s into the mid '20s would most likely have a wheel base between (or near) 109 and 118 inches.

Compare chassis size and wheel base with a few luxury cars. A friend of mine has a 1915 Pierce Arrow limousine (talk  about sitting in the lap of luxury!). I believe the wheel base is 142 inches. Another friend has the large Hudson of 1915, its wheel base is 135 inches. Packard around 1915 also had their larger model wheelbase at 144 inches. All of these companies also had slightly smaller models, with wheel bases slightly less.  

 

This body looks large for the '10s era, but maybe not large enough for the top-of-the-line luxury chassis.

Exact measurements of the OP photo would sure be nice! (Along with many more close up photos of details.) But that likely cannot happen. Tinindian's "three fingers/three inches doesn't work for me either. Just for silly's sake. I measured my three fingers, and got 2 1/2 inches. Couple that to I have to wear Extra Large gloves, and that most people and their hands were smaller a hundred years ago? And I would say at least three feet need to be taken off his body length estimate. Such comparisons are a good way to get a good estimate. However people's body parts do not make a reliable basis for comparison. 

 However, lacking a more reliable item to compare, I went ahead with the man's hand. Using the man's full fist, measuring mine (slightly over 4 inches), adjusting slightly for smaller hand size, developed a scale, and measured the body. I came up with 84 inches (maybe slightly more), or maybe a bit over seven feet cowl to back. 

I would expect the OP photo body is slightly over 84 inches firewall to back. Then, just for kicks and giggles, I measured the man's height as best I could given that his feet are obscured. Turned that measure on its side and found the bodies length at about one and one third the man's height. Figuring the man's height at about five and a half feet plus two more feet for the approximate "one third" and adding them gives me the same ballpark, a bit over seven feet.

Working with model T Ford speedster body reconstruction, as well as some early horseless carriage bodies, we often use the wheel rim. The size is very consistent provided you know for certain which of the  common rim/tire sizes you are using for a measurement. For one project, I even developed a sliding scale from the front to the rear of the car by developing the scale off both the front and rear wheels. Because the picture was taken at an angle, I had to create a "vanishing point" scale to work on different areas of the car.

Simply for comparison, the body on my '27 Paige is 9 feet long.

 

It is just hard to know. The OP body could have been used for a taxi, maybe on a large Maxwell, or four cylinder Studebaker. I suspect it wound up on something more like a Chalmers or Velie, It could be any of the larger mid size cars of that era. Maybe used to take milady shopping in town?

My opinion.

Edited January 10, 2018 by wayne sheldon
Left out a needed quotation mark. (see edit history)

[8E45E]

Here is a 1922 Checker cab:  http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?53558-Orphan-of-the-Day-08-10-1922-Checker-Cab

 

Craig

[mkm5]

I measured the car body in the picture based on my grandfather's height of 6'-0", and the car body is twice as long as he is tall in the picture, measured from c/l of cowl to the back end.

 

So my estimate is the cab is 12' long and about 6' tall!

 

Mike

[Rusty_OToole]

I'm wondering if there is a left side front door or not? It looks like there is, then again it looks like there isn't. I can see there being a door there if the seam was washed out by the light. This is fairly common in old photos if the car is light colored or standing on a light colored background like snow or white sand. If the body was made of aluminum which most custom bodies were, then  reflections could easily blur the door line. Yet you can still see the shape of the door. So, I suspect there was a door there either concealed by the way the light hit it or maybe welded up.

 

Another strange feature is that none of the men seems to have any feet. I enlarged the photo and only one (possible) foot is visible right where the crease or fold is. But it does not match up with any of the men.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)