425 Engine VIN494876H936373

[Chimera]

My 66 Shadow turquoise GS Riviera has no visible stamping on the engine front. I will be attempting to use hydrochloric acid in attempts to bring out compressed metal to see if I can make anything out, however I wanted to also put out a call to see if someone might happen to have the block laying around if the one now in the vehicle is not original.

 

VIN 494876H936373

 

Thank you for taking the time if anyone bothers to check old blocks laying around.

 

The vehicle was originally from the Washington State area (Lynnwood?).

 

Happy New Year,

Gabriel

Edited January 8, 2018 by Chimera (see edit history)

[RivNut]

I know one other person who has a 65 with no identifying stamps on it.  Luckily for him, he has the paper work to show that the engine in his car was a factory warranty replacement.  What are the chances you may be in the same situation.  Is there a problem with the engine currently in the car now?  Do the date castings on your intake  coordinate to the build date on the data plate?  Any other engine with an engine serial code that doesn't match your VIN is going to be incorrect as well.  If there's nothing wrong with this block, you're better off as you are.  Lots of those stamped numbers get covered with paint anyhow and few people look that closely at the numbers.

[Chimera]

Interesting Ed. Yeah I had not thought of the factory warranty replacement possibility.

 

The intake has an F for June, but the fire wall plate shows the second week of April. 

 

I went far down the rabbit hole because I purchased the vehicle site unseen from Canada as a "numbers matching bone stock factory dual quad GS." You know, one of the 179. So in person I was able to confirm the GS with all the known aspects (with help from Darwin/Jason/RoA intel. The one most solid evidence as the PY stamping for the gear ratio/posi. Confirmed it as a 425 with the molding shown below.

 

I have a friend who actually saw this 66 in person in Washington State in like 1986 and even then it had the dual quad setup on it. In Washington it was owned by someone who worked for Boeing. 

 

Nothing wrong with the engine that I know of. Seems to run strong. Just thought I would continue my detective work and due diligence for such a fine beast AND to get/keep it as original as possible.

 

So with the 66 dual quads, as we already know,  there are those that are MZ, then some that got it at the dealership, and then of course added from other 1st generation vehicles. Does anyone know of a 66 that has a documented dual quad setup from the dealership? I also know that it is not always standardized how this was done, especially at dealerships. Is it generally known that the dealerships also put in the upgraded cam?

 

[abandg]

I have an NOS replacement block with only pistons and rings. It has no numbers on it and is a 401. It came in a wooden crate from the factory. Gene.  

[Loren@65GS.com]

I believe the build date is the fourth week of February.  I may be incorrect being you have a '66. For '64- '65 the data plate number is for the month and the letter represents the week of that month.

Loren 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Loren@65GS.com (see edit history)

[DualQuadDave]

I have rebuilt marine Nailheads and they have had no numbers on them, but usually have the "hook" on the back.  With all the matching #'s talk, this sounds like a Mopar or Vette thread, lol.

[Chimera]

Yeah end of February, thanks. Got my letters and numbers crossed!

Edited January 8, 2018 by Chimera (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Leave it as is.  A mismatched set of numbers would be worse than no numbers at all.  Clean it up and take care of the minutia and no one will question you.  The "universal" radiator hose will cause you more grief than the non-existant numbers.

 

A friend out in central Kansas has a 65 Gran Sport that has a 66 425 in it.  He took it to the ROA event in Colorado Springs in 2014 and had a number of people comment on his 66 engine in a 65.  When he asked me about it, i commented that if he would swap out the water cross over pipe that had the lifting loop on it for a plain one and paint the engine green rather than leaving it the original 66 red, no one would ask.  Since he's done that, no one has ever questioned him.

 

You'll probably never know for sure, unless someone with a dealer installed set up comes up with answers, if your car was originally an MZ or an MW.  Is the protecto-plate with the car?  It will have info on it that could be helpful.

Edited January 8, 2018 by RivNut (see edit history)

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: There is only 1 problem with non matching numbers on a First-Gen Riv.  If a 63 has  a 64, 65 or 66 engine....unless the installer knew EXACTLY what they were were  doing (WHICH IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY) it most likely gonna be a mess. Otherwise who cares?   Mitch

[RivNut]

13 hours ago, Chimera said:

 

Nothing wrong with the engine that I know of. Seems to run strong.

 

Apparently not a mess.  

 

You could, if you're so inclined, do what I understand the Chevy guys do.  Get yourself a set of punches and create the block number to correlate to the rest of the car.  ?

[Chimera]

Thank you for all the feedback. I will update if there are developments. In the off chance that someone actually finds a block with the listed VIN stamped please pm me.

 

Any information on factory installed 66 dual quads would also be very interesting to learn about.

[JZRIV]

What are the carb numbers? Its simple and inexpensive enough (price of intake and valley pan gaskets) to pull the intake and valley pan and check the cam for the telltale machined groove indicating the 091 cam. Assuming of course it has not been replaced in the past.

[1965rivgs]

23 hours ago, JZRIV said:

What are the carb numbers? Its simple and inexpensive enough (price of intake and valley pan gaskets) to pull the intake and valley pan and check the cam for the telltale machined groove indicating the 091 cam. Assuming of course it has not been replaced in the past.

Would a factory replacement block have the `64-`66 dual quad cam? Highly doubt it....or did a replacement short block not have a camshaft requiring moving the original cam into the replacement block??

I have a late `65 GS which is very, very original, doubt if the engine had ever been opened...I found a `66 cam and the car and it had a very smooth idle compared to other GS cars I own. I think the factory installed a `66 cam. So much for expectations and consistency

  Tom

[JZRIV]

Agree Tom. I think Gabriel felt there was a slight possibility the engine may be original to car and never got stamped from the factory and or if it was a legitimate dealer install did they bother to open it up and put the cam in.

[Chimera]

Hard to know and Occam's razor is not always the best tool. Certainly the odds of someone finding a block with this VIN on it would be super low odds, but you never know, hehe.

 

Tom's story also further invokes the reality of chaos theory. 

 

I would think a replacement block would be issued regardless if dual quads or not if required.

 

The carbs are 64 or late 65.

 

Still, digging down into the dealer installed 66 dual quads would be interesting intel for everyone. If anything can be dug up regarding.

 

Thanks again!

[RivNut]

Here's a list of casting numbers for the nailheads.   (Don't pay any attention to the 65 - 66 GS 401 exhaust manifolds.  Those numbers refer to the manifolds for the 401 nailhead in the Skylark GS series.  Totally different than what came in the bigger series cars.)

 

https://www.teambuick.com/reference/casting_numbers_nailhead.php

 

Here are the numbers for the 1965 dual quad carbs. The source from which I got these does not list the '66 numbers 

 

1965

8

425

(Rear of 2 - A/T)

Carter

AFB

3925

860

1965

8

425

(Front of 2)

Carter

AFB

3645

860

1965

8

425

(Rear of 2 - S/T)

Carter

AFB

3924

860

Here are the numbers for the 1964 dual quad carbs.

 

 

1964

8

425

(Rear of 2 - A/T)

Carter

AFB

3646

860

1964

8

425

(Rear of 2 - S/T)

Carter

AFB

3634

860

1964

8

425

(Front of 2)

Carter

AFB

3645

860

 

 

Check to see if the band with the part number is still on the distributor.  That was a different distributor for the dual quad cars.  I don't know those part numbers.

 

I would venture to say that you're looking for a needle in a haystack if you're trying to find the block that matches your VIN.  For some reason, that block was discarded in lieu of the block that's in the car now.

 

Below is a page from an old Riview in which Denny Manner answers questions about cam shafts.

 

Ed

 

1959 - 1966 Buick Nailhead Cam Specs.PDF

 

[RivNut]

PS  -  if you're curious as to the difference in the 401 GS exhaust manifold, here's a picture of one for the driver's side.  The passenger's side looks similar

 

[1965rivgs]

7 hours ago, RivNut said:

Here's a list of casting numbers for the nailheads.   (Don't pay any attention to the 65 - 66 GS 401 exhaust manifolds.  Those numbers refer to the manifolds for the 401 nailhead in the Skylark GS series.  Totally different than what came in the bigger series cars.)

 

https://www.teambuick.com/reference/casting_numbers_nailhead.php

 

Here are the numbers for the 1965 dual quad carbs. The source from which I got these does not list the '66 numbers 

 

1965

8

425

(Rear of 2 - A/T)

Carter

AFB

3925

860

1965

8

425

(Front of 2)

Carter

AFB

3645

860

1965

8

425

(Rear of 2 - S/T)

Carter

AFB

3924

860

Here are the numbers for the 1964 dual quad carbs.

 

 

1964

8

425

(Rear of 2 - A/T)

Carter

AFB

3646

860

1964

8

425

(Rear of 2 - S/T)

Carter

AFB

3634

860

1964

8

425

(Front of 2)

Carter

AFB

3645

860

 

 

Check to see if the band with the part number is still on the distributor.  That was a different distributor for the dual quad cars.  I don't know those part numbers.

 

I would venture to say that you're looking for a needle in a haystack if you're trying to find the block that matches your VIN.  For some reason, that block was discarded in lieu of the block that's in the car now.

 

Below is a page from an old Riview in which Denny Manner answers questions about cam shafts.

 

Ed

 

1959 - 1966 Buick Nailhead Cam Specs.PDF

 

Ed,

  According to this chart the `64 and `65 front carbs are the same?? I dont have the carb numbers memorized anymore but I dont think that is correct. I can tell a `64 carb from a `65 carb just by looking at them so I would be VERY surprised if the carb numbers are the same.I dont have time to check right now but the carb numbers are in their respective year shop manuals,

  Tom

[1965rivgs]

Gabe,

  As Jason has suggested, what are the carb numbers?

  Tom Mooney

[RivNut]

44 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

Ed,

  According to this chart the `64 and `65 front carbs are the same?? I dont have the carb numbers memorized anymore but I dont think that is correct. I can tell a `64 carb from a `65 carb just by looking at them so I would be VERY surprised if the carb numbers are the same.I dont have time to check right now but the carb numbers are in their respective year shop manuals,

  Tom

I copied and pasted this from Carbking's website.  I don't have the resources to check the numbers for the 65, but I'll check the numbers for the 64.  

[Chimera]

 3925S with G4 

 

and the other has 3645S with AF4 (or AFA?) under

 

 

[1965rivgs]

9 hours ago, Chimera said:

 3925S with G4 

 

and the other has 3645S with AF4 (or AFA?) under

 

 

These carb numbers are not consistent with what I would expect to see on a dealer installed 1966 Super Wildcat modification

Tom

[carbking]

Carter lists 4050s and 4051s as PROTOTYPE dual quads for 1966. I have no records showing that these made it to production, which is why I do not list them in my charts on my website. No use for someone trying to find something that does not exist.

 

Typically, Carter would produce a few carbs (generally 6 or fewer) which would be sent to the O.E. for evaluation. Following evaluation by the O.E., the carbs would either go into a production status or be forgotton. Often, these prototype carbs would also carry the "experimental" number, generally a 5 or 6 digit number beginning with an "X". I have several of these, but none for Buick.

 

If someone has Buick data that would show these carbs were actually produced, I would like to see it, and would then add them to the web-page.

 

Jon.

[telriv]

Jon,

 

   I had a 4051, which was supposedly correct for the rear of a '66 set-up, but had a '64 throttle shaft installed. Looked factory as there was NO evidence of someone changing the throttle shaft. I cut off the roller & welded the correct kick down portion to it.

  It's still in service today in Texarcana.

 

 

Tom T.

Edited January 12, 2018 by telriv (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

On 1/11/2018 at 5:31 AM, carbking said:

 

Hi Jon,

  Can you please post a pic of the Carter documentation you referenced?

  The 4051 carb most definitely was installed on production MZ cars so feel free to add it to your list. I am 99.9% sure of this carb number but am quoting from memory. I am currently away from my car and documentation. I will followup and if I am in error will correct this post. Thanks in advance,

  Tom Mooney

[1965rivgs]

13 hours ago, telriv said:

Jon,

 

   I had a 4051, which was supposedly correct for the rear of a '66 set-up, but had a '64 throttle shaft installed. Looked factory as there was NO evidence of someone changing the throttle shaft. I cut off the roller & welded the correct kick down portion to it.

  It's still in service today in Texarcana.

 

 

Tom T.

Hi Tom,

  I remember you having this carb and viewing the pics of the carb number. I recall the "font" of your carb was not the same as the font on `66 era AFB`s but was identical to later produced carbs. The font on your carb was narrower and taller with thinner "legs" on the characters having a more delicate appearance. DEFINITELY different compared to what I am accustomed to seeing on mid `60`s AFB carbs. Was this font changed when Rochester bought Carter? Maybe Jon can comment?

I came to the conclusion your carb may have been produced as a service carb for retrofit for a `66 application. Just speculation on my part...

  Tom

[telriv]

BUT, if it was a retrofit for a '66 application why did it have the '64 ONLY roller wheel for the kick down??? Who knows why it was manufactured the way it was???

[1965rivgs]

10 hours ago, telriv said:

BUT, if it was a retrofit for a '66 application why did it have the '64 ONLY roller wheel for the kick down??? Who knows why it was manufactured the way it was???

LOL...when I viewed the pics I dont remember it having the `64 throttle shaft. Perhaps you had already converted it?

Which brings us back to why, given the carb number, it had a `64 throttle shaft to begin with? My point was, not if someone played games with the original throttle shaft, but why the carb number stamp was different in appearance as compared to other `66 AFB carbs? Do you still have a pic of the carb stamp? I may still have the pic you sent but on a PC which I do not have access to at this time.

  Tom

[carbking]

First - Rochester did not Carter, Federal Mogul did, in about 1984.

 

Carter used a number of different fonts on the stamping of the AFB carbs. Some were stamped with both the date code and the identification numbers on the same line, others on two separate lines.

 

The Carter documentation quoted is from a 3-ring notebook listing done by a Carter employee. There is no evidence is was done by Carter so absolutely no proof of anything, but I know who did it. The 4050s and 4051s numbers never made any of the factory production literature. Generally, with a low "production" number such as the Pontiac Super Duty carbs from 1962 and 1963, Carter would issue a "TFN" which meant temporary field notice. These were done on a mimeograph machine as needed, but were not sent out with the factory Master Parts Books. I do have the TFN file from the office of the customer service people at Carter, and these numbers are not there. The numbers were assigned, and Buick numbers were also assigned, but this means nothing, as the same was true for the 1957 Pontiac dual quads. In the case of Pontiac, numbers assigned, prototype carbs sent to Pontiac for testing, NO production. However, over the years, I have seen a couple of the Pontiac sets. They were constructed from then-current parts, no new tooling was done. I have enough parts to build the exact carbs, if I wished to do so, as I did acquire the actual drawings for these carbs from Carter.

 

Often, prototype carbs would be hand-built BEFORE production for a given year, so NOT surprising that the 1964 throttle shaft may have been used.

 

I have tried to keep my database as accurate as possible, so show these as experimental. I know a few prototypes were built, but cannot prove how many or if these, if any, were actually sold to Buick for OTC sales from the Carter literature.

 

The information I have:

 

4050s - Buick 1373999 1966 Buick 425 both S/T and A/T front of 2 discontinued 9 Oct 1970.

4051s - Buick 1379226 1966 Buick 425 A/T only rear of 2 discontinued 26 August 1975.

 

It would be interesting to see if the Buick numbers appear in any of the Buick Parts books.

 

EDIT: for brain to typing finger error, the 4051s was A/T only, not S/T as originally posted. Have changed the post to reflect this. Thanks Tom.

 

Jon.

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by carbking (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

Was Federal Mogul a "parent" company? If so, did their holdings include Rochester? At what point in time was Carter sold? What year?

When I referenced the "font" I was not referring to the arrangement of characters but their appearance. The carb stamp Tom has described had a very different appearance as compared to typical `66 AFB carbs. As referenced in my post, the characters were very thin and vertically elongated as compared to other `66 carbs giving the stamp a much more delicate appearance.

How do the prototype stamps compare to the production stamps???

Buick most definitely installed 4051 carbs on the factory produced MZ dual quad `66 cars...take it to the bank! I even have the triangular tags attached to the carb air horn with the seven digit GM part number stamped into the tag. However, contrary to your post/source, the description should read for "A/T" application.

I would need to double check my late `66 Buick parts book which are not at hand but I am absolutely sure the 7 digit GM part number appears in the "up to `70" Buick parts book.

Hope this helps

Tom

[carbking]

Tom - to my knowledge, Federal Mogul never owned Rochester (division of GM). Carter was purchased approximately 1984 (from memory). Google probably can give an exact date, but I am lazy.

 

The size and shape of the font changed over the years. I mentioned the single line/double line only as additional information. My GUESS is when the stamps wore out, Carter simply purchased new stamps, without regard to the font.

 

The experimental carbs would be hand-stamped with an experimental number (started with the letter "X"). The prototypes would be stamped with the same numbers as the production, but I believe without proof, that they were hand-stamped.

 

Back to the Pontiac Super Duty carbs. They were what Carter considered "low production". The carbs were built from castings from other production carbs (some Chevrolet, some Chrysler) and some unique parts then attached, as well as calibration changes. The factory stamping from the original application was ground off. Again, I knew the individuals that pulled the production carbs off the shelf, and disassembled for the castings. Unfortunately, they are no longer available for contact to verify this.

 

If the 4050s/4051s DO appear in the Buick Parts Books, I am going to need to find one to produce a bill-of-materials, so I could offer rebuilding kits.

 

Is there any record of how many of these cars were produced? Were they factory, or dealer installed options?

 

The Chrysler "Drag-Pack" dual quads (200 sets) did make the Carter production literature.

 

Really difficult to document this low production stuff, and as a historian, I like to have factory literature as backup for my database (currently 92,584 application entries).

 

Jon.

Edited January 13, 2018 by carbking (see edit history)

[telriv]

Sorry Tom DO NOT have pictures any longer. The carb. being discussed DID have the one yr. only /64 throttle shaft. There were NO signs that it had EVER been messed with. MAYBE the purchaser of this carb. can commit since he recently bought the '65 GS that he purchased which, it seems to be not an original GS, that was one of the 454 that were produced with the dual quad option that wasn't a GS. Know who I'm talking about. It was a car that you knew about. Would rather not mention his name online although he is well known for his '71 Limemist GSX.

 

 

Tom T.

[1965rivgs]

8 hours ago, carbking said:

Tom - to my knowledge, Federal Mogul never owned Rochester (division of GM). Carter was purchased approximately 1984 (from memory). Google probably can give an exact date, but I am lazy.

 

The size and shape of the font changed over the years. I mentioned the single line/double line only as additional information. My GUESS is when the stamps wore out, Carter simply purchased new stamps, without regard to the font.

 

The experimental carbs would be hand-stamped with an experimental number (started with the letter "X"). The prototypes would be stamped with the same numbers as the production, but I believe without proof, that they were hand-stamped.

 

Back to the Pontiac Super Duty carbs. They were what Carter considered "low production". The carbs were built from castings from other production carbs (some Chevrolet, some Chrysler) and some unique parts then attached, as well as calibration changes. The factory stamping from the original application was ground off. Again, I knew the individuals that pulled the production carbs off the shelf, and disassembled for the castings. Unfortunately, they are no longer available for contact to verify this.

 

If the 4050s/4051s DO appear in the Buick Parts Books, I am going to need to find one to produce a bill-of-materials, so I could offer rebuilding kits.

 

Is there any record of how many of these cars were produced? Were they factory, or dealer installed options?

 

The Chrysler "Drag-Pack" dual quads (200 sets) did make the Carter production literature.

 

Really difficult to document this low production stuff, and as a historian, I like to have factory literature as backup for my database (currently 92,584 application entries).

 

Jon.

Thanks Jon,

Your description of the "low production" Pontiac carbs and how they were built up also holds true for the 4051 Buick carbs. Thanks for the info,

  Tom

[1965rivgs]

8 hours ago, telriv said:

Sorry Tom DO NOT have pictures any longer. The carb. being discussed DID have the one yr. only /64 throttle shaft. There were NO signs that it had EVER been messed with. MAYBE the purchaser of this carb. can commit since he recently bought the '65 GS that he purchased which, it seems to be not an original GS, that was one of the 454 that were produced with the dual quad option that wasn't a GS. Know who I'm talking about. It was a car that you knew about. Would rather not mention his name online although he is well known for his '71 Limemist GSX.

 

 

Tom T.

Thanks Tom, yes I know him and had pics of his car from back in the `80`s. Thanks,

  Tom

[carbking]

A wee bit more information from some additional files:

 

The airhorn casting used on the 4050s is shared with 3645s

The lower casting used on the 4050s is shared with unique

 

The airhorn casting used on the 4051s is shared with 3634s, 3646s, and 3924s.

The lower casting used on the 4051s is shared with a BUNCH of different Buick carbs 1964, 1965, and 1966.

 

I believe this exhausts the information in the files of which I have custody.

 

Does anyone have a late 1960's Buick Master Parts book to check?

 

Jon.

[1965rivgs]

15 hours ago, carbking said:

A wee bit more information from some additional files:

 

The airhorn casting used on the 4050s is shared with 3645s

The lower casting used on the 4050s is shared with unique

 

The airhorn casting used on the 4051s is shared with 3634s, 3646s, and 3924s.

The lower casting used on the 4051s is shared with a BUNCH of different Buick carbs 1964, 1965, and 1966.

 

I believe this exhausts the information in the files of which I have custody.

 

Does anyone have a late 1960's Buick Master Parts book to check?

 

Jon.

Jon,

  I have many Buick parts books, at least one of which I have stated has a listing of the 7 digit part number and application for the 4051 carb. See my previous post in this thread. What else do you want to know??

  Tom

[carbking]

Tom - if would be too much to ask. I need to find a book so I can get part numbers for the various kit components, and then then are probably Buick numbers, will have to cross-reference them to other Buick carburetors for which I have the Carter bill-of-material. Then I will be able to offer rebuilding kits.

 

Jon.

[1965rivgs]

16 hours ago, carbking said:

Tom - if would be too much to ask. I need to find a book so I can get part numbers for the various kit components, and then then are probably Buick numbers, will have to cross-reference them to other Buick carburetors for which I have the Carter bill-of-material. Then I will be able to offer rebuilding kits.

 

Jon.

Jon,

  I am quite certain the rebuild kit for the `66 4051 would be the same for the equivalent `65 carb. It has been over a decade since I researched the 4051 via the parts book breakdown but I`m reasonably sure the only difference between the `65 and `66 dual quad rear carb is the choke calibration.

Tom

[carbking]

Thank you Tom, I will list them.

 

Jon.