A pet peeve - the hobby is dying and old cars are junk

[John348]

7 hours ago, keithb7 said:

I’m 46.........................................................................

 

I joined the local vintage car club. Yes, probably 95% of the members are retired. 

 

 

 

I think that is the entire point of the statement that the hobby is dying or undergoing a rapid change. I don't see enough 46 year old people coming into the hobby to offset the attrition

[R.White]

I think we are perhaps seeing a change in the hobby rather than it's demise.  If the demand for historic vehicles declines so will the price and that could bring in a whole new generation.  I imagine that the cost of classic cars must deter hard up youngsters from getting started in the hobby and I have always felt that when a car becomes an investment it ceases to be fun.  For those enthusiasts who think of their collections as being a good investment, the future may not provide them with the dividends that they have in the past.  The question then is who would want to "invest" in a depreciating asset?  I suggest the market will eventually decide on the true value of classic cars and the picture in the future may look a whole lot different to what it does today

 

Ray.

[MCHinson]

People were predicting the death of the hobby long before I got in it. I have been in it for over 20 years. Being 57 years old currently, I think I have another couple of decades left in it myself. I am sure that people will still be predicting the death of the hobby after I am dead and gone. When I finish my current restoration project, both of my kids will have an antique car to inherit.  

[John348]

33 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

People were predicting the death of the hobby long before I got in it.

 

Matt I am only a few years older than you but for intent and purpose we are the same age, I was fortunate to have grown up in the hobby and have been actively involved for over 40 years, and I never had heard anyone predicting the death of the hobby until the past few years. I am not going by what I other people say, I am going by what I see.

[Dynaflash8]

1 hour ago, MCHinson said:

People were predicting the death of the hobby long before I got in it. I have been in it for over 20 years. Being 57 years old currently, I think I have another couple of decades left in it myself. I am sure that people will still be predicting the death of the hobby after I am dead and gone. When I finish my current restoration project, both of my kids will have an antique car to inherit.  

Only 20 more years?  Come on Matt, I'm 79 and resurrecting another old car now.  Although I've said it before, this really will be the last one though.  Having a hell of a good time (and expensive one) finding and buying the parts I want for it too.

[Dynaflash8]

1 hour ago, John348 said:

 

Matt I am only a few years older than you but for intent and purpose we are the same age, I was fortunate to have grown up in the hobby and have been actively involved for over 40 years, and I never had heard anyone predicting the death of the hobby until the past few years. I am not going by what I other people say, I am going by what I see.

Jim, I get what you see.  I see it too, but I saw it 18 years ago too when our first lady President was predicting the possibility of AACA going way down within ten years.  I thought so too, but then along came Steve Moskowitz and the club under him has found new ways to revitalize itself.  They just bought a new headquarters building.  Before that, back in the 90's, none other than Jay Leno made a speech to some large gathering where he talked about the "graying of the hobby".  The gentleman from England hit it on the head, a major part of what you see today is resulting from a change in the hobby where by other gray haired old men with pony tails are ripping apart pre-war cars to built street rods.  Well, that's a shame.  It's like paint a mustache and sideburns on Mona Lisa.  The difference is there is only one Mona Lisa and there are still a lot of pre-war cars that can be destroyed.............shame that it is.  None of us on this website, in my opinion, will live to see the total demise of AACA, the main life-blood on the antique automobile hobby.

[MCHinson]

2 hours ago, John348 said:

 

Matt I am only a few years older than you but for intent and purpose we are the same age, I was fortunate to have grown up in the hobby and have been actively involved for over 40 years, and I never had heard anyone predicting the death of the hobby until the past few years. I am not going by what I other people say, I am going by what I see.

 

Here is just one example of a discussion of concerns of "graying" of the hobby. I have not yet read the entire discussion but please note that this link is to a discussion is from 2000  - about 18 years ago! 

 

Earl, I have to add that I find it amusing to see that you have been referring to yourself as one of the "old guys" for at least 18 years.

[60FlatTop]

12 hours ago, Dynaflash8 said:

where by other gray haired old men with pony tails are ripping apart pre-war cars to built street rods

 

That is an awful lot like stereotyping. Over the years I have been saying "If they didn't keep living up to the stereotypes maybe there would be less" You think???

 

I have been shopping for a new vehicle and trying to cheap out looking at used trucks (even though I am pretty sure I know the outcome). Anyway, I came across a potential truck. It was a typical ad, fingers over the license plate, yes I make a judgement based on that, and decent pictures, However, the Harley Davidson floor mats in a truck did raise a red flag. I immediately pictured the gray pony tail, tattoos and at least a few piercings; and the "Don't Tread on Me" stance- feet apart, arms crossed, and probably 5' 6". THAT is the immediate image. I chose to pass.

That was not so much the person, but where TV and the media have put my thoughts.

 

It is very true that, second to the cars, the people make the hobby. And the people have changed. I look at the old Hershey clips on Youtube or some early club publications. I have a stack of The Way of the Zephyr that really bring a smile, they all wear a Professional Engineer's uniform, with pocket protector. Today's vids you see baggy shorts, ear rings, either those little white socks or the tall white medical ones. And the pony tail or some other stigmatization. And I can usually tell the kind of car they own. When I was 16 a "typical" orphan car owner came to our house to look at a car I had for sale. A week before my Mother died, 50 years later, I think she mentioned that guy, unforgettable.

 

It's the hobby and the fun of the hobby. Life is too important to take seriously. Too much seriousness leads to unfulfilled expectations.

 

I'm in for 35 my years or so.

 

Bernie

[R.White]

If we are talking stereotyping; from our perspective on this side of the pond, as a result of a slew of T.V. programmes, all you Americans are custom car freaks.  We NEVER hear about all the true old car enthusiasts who value originality over modified. Instead, we get the impression that if an old car is dragged out of a barn covered in dust, the first thought is how to hot rod it.

 

Ray.

[philipj]

It is indeed a real shame to see rarer cars for sale, such as Century's and convertibles chopped at the front with V8's and automatic transmissions... Unfortunately, no one has any control over that...Wish there was a way. I just say to myself, one less possible restoration candidate or running original off on the road... For what?

Very frustrating!!.. It takes real talent, dedication and passion to maintain/drive an original car...

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, R.White said:

If we are talking stereotyping; from our perspective on this side of the pond, as a result of a slew of T.V. programmes, all you Americans are custom car freaks.  We NEVER hear about all the true old car enthusiasts who value originality over modified. Instead, we get the impression that if an old car is dragged out of a barn covered in dust, the first thought is how to hot rod it.

 

Ray.

I am afraid your perceptions are largely correct. And on the one hand I can almost understand the urge to modify old cars. Todays road situation makes the driving of stock condition vintage cars somewhat unnerving . The pace of traffic and erratic behaviour of some drivers makes for a degree of "white knuckle " driving in a relatively slow and marginal braking vehicle.

 Fortunately the majority of modified vehicles seem to be comparatively common cars. But every now and then something rare and desirable is also chopped up. These cases are unfortunately quite sad.

 On the other hand period authentic speedsters don't seem to me to be quite as serious a transgression.  The reality of the passage of 100+ years and the nature of early body construction means that there are substantial numbers of surviving chassis components that have little or no surviving bodywork. A period correct speedster seems like a reasonable choice.

 

Greg in Canada

 

[Dynaflash8]

4 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

I'm in for 35 my years or so.

35 years or so more?  Don't smoke then.

 

[MCHinson]

53 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

I am afraid your perceptions are largely correct. And on the one hand I can almost understand the urge to modify old cars. Todays road situation makes the driving of stock condition vintage cars somewhat unnerving . The pace of traffic and erratic behaviour of some drivers makes for a degree of "white knuckle " driving in a relatively slow and marginal braking vehicle.

 

Greg in Canada

 

 

Apparently Canada must be a lot different from the Southeastern part of North Carolina. I enjoy driving my 1937 Buick on a regular basis. I admit I don't have a car from the teens, but I have local friends who drive their Model T Fords here often as well. 

 

The first thing to remember about "Reality TV" (and probably all TV for that matter) is that it is NOT Reality.

[1912Staver]

Traffic in the Vancouver area is definitely nerve wracking at times. Very rapidly growing population, very poor public transportation. Challenging geography. Little improvement in roadway network despite huge increase in population. Consistently rated as one of North America's most congested traffic systems.

Greg in Canada

[Dynaflash8]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

The pace of traffic and erratic behaviour of some drivers makes for a degree of "white knuckle " driving in a relatively slow and marginal braking vehicle.

 Fortunately the majority of modified vehicles seem to be comparatively common cars.

I guess it depends on what you consider a "comparatively common car".  Any surviving pre-1950 car is no long relatively common.  They're all rare.  As to the brakes, any car built after at least 1936 with hydraulic brakes stops just fine.  I had one of mine out yesterday in heavy traffic and it stopped in all instances as well as any car really needs to.  A lot of these modern drivers drive so fast and stop so late that they have to stop much shorter then would a better driver.  I even had a '35 Buick with mechanical brakes that stopped adequately, but it wasn't a very fast car either.  Much of that is hype from bad drivers in my opinion.  I had a 66 Chrysler and still have a 64 Buick Wildcat, both with power brakes, that are scarier to stop than the pre-War Buicks with standard hydraulic brakes.  Last, I will say, I don't think any old car is common.  But yes, I agree that the gentleman from "across the pond" is correct about street rods in the U.S., and also all the TV shows that push them.  Makes me sick, and I guess that wasn't politically correct, right?

[Dynaflash8]

19 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

Apparently Canada must be a lot different from the Southeastern part of North Carolina. I enjoy driving my 1937 Buick on a regular basis.

Hey Matt, you'll have to curtail driving that old '37 Buick a bit now at 10-12 mpg.  I see gas has gone  up to $2.55.9 a gallon here today.  I guess the oil companies are getting ready to fleece us of the little increase in pay we're getting from our new-found tax cut wealth on Feb 1.  Guess they had to get a jump-start grubbing their money.

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[R.White]

5 minutes ago, Dynaflash8 said:

Hey Matt, you'll have to curtail driving that old '37 Buick a bit now at 10-12 mpg.  I see gas has gone  up to $2.55.9 a gallon here today.  I guess the oil companies are getting ready to fleece us of the little increase in pay we're getting from our new-found tax cut wealth on Feb 1.  Guess they had to get a jump-start grubbing their money.

 

 

Have a care for us Brits where petrol is the equivalent over $7 an imperial gallon... and our gallons are quite a bit smaller than yours!

[Dynaflash8]

4 minutes ago, R.White said:

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[philipj]

I must agree with Dynaflash 8 in all respects... It is not about the poor performance in braking or any other thing wrong with these prewar cars, but the fact that we have idiotic drivers everywhere that do not care about anything else but their iphones and coffee instead of respecting the traffic laws and other people around them. I also hate to think that we need to worry about what is politically correct in this forum; If it is black, gray or white we should be able to express it... 

[playswithbrass]

Actually an American gallon is 128 Fl oz. British and Canadian gallons are the same and 160 fl oz. but the British gas prices are horrible!

[Larry Schramm]

1 hour ago, R.White said:

 

Have a care for us Brits where petrol is the equivalent over $7 an imperial gallon... and our gallons are quite a bit smaller than yours!

 

How much is petrol currently per Liter?

Edited January 28, 2018 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[cxgvd]

I fuelled up today at $121.9 per liter Canadian.  Larry it seems to me it takes 3.78 lt per US Gallon and our dollar sells for about a 25% discount to yours.   I'm just happy 87 octane gas is not in short supply.  Gary

 

[trimacar]

So, doing the math in my head, and making assumptions and a few wild a-- guesses, sounds like 23 fill ups equal one plain radiator shell rechrome!

 

I always get a kick out of people asking what mileage I get in, for example, my Pierce.  It's the furthest thing from my mind when I'm enjoying a drive.....

[John_S_in_Penna]

4 minutes ago, cxgvd said:

I fueled up today at $121.9 per liter Canadian....   it takes 3.78 liters per US Gallon...

 

Well, that's a lot better than England's reported $7 per imperial gallon;

but some automobile association should tell your politicians--they work

for the citizens, and they need to remember that--if you want lower gas taxes.

 

I was in Texas over Christmas, and gas there ranged from $2.15 to $2.25 per gallon.

In the last 10 years or so, heretofore unknown oil deposits are being discovered widely

in the U. S., and they're likely in Canada and other places too.

 

For a long time, gas in the U. S. and Canada was very close in price,

and the Canadian dollar was for many years around par with the U. S.,

so Canadian coins would circulate freely in the northern U. S.

Canada and Britain need sustained prosperity as much as anyone else!

 

[R.White]

48 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

How much is petrol currently per Liter?

It depends where you get it (and if you want the cheaper ethanol stuff) but petrol is about £1.25 a litre.   

 

I run my 4.6 litre Range Rover on LPG which is about half the price of petrol.  It is cleaner and the V8 engine runs more smoothly and picks up better than on petrol.

 

Ray.

[Dynaflash8]

During the hurricane here in Florida LPG (I guess you mean liquid propane) was $4.52 a gallon.  Doubled for emergency. 

 

We're like fleas on a dogs back.  All we can do is go where the dog takes us.

[Larry Schramm]

3 hours ago, R.White said:

It depends where you get it (and if you want the cheaper ethanol stuff) but petrol is about £1.25 a litre.   

 

I run my 4.6 litre Range Rover on LPG which is about half the price of petrol.  It is cleaner and the V8 engine runs more smoothly and picks up better than on petrol.

 

Ray.

 

Ouch on fuel.   About $1.75/ quart.  More expensive that a gallon of milk here which in the Detroit area is $2.00/gallon.

 

I had a Buick Regal years ago that ran on propane.   It had a 3800 engine and ran great.

[padgett]

For years it has seemed that the price of a gallon of milk and a gallon of 87 PON have been about the same. Any difference in all tax.

[cxgvd]

I should remind everyone Canadian fuel has the price of carbon credits added to the cost of fuel, so it may be closer to the actual cost of driving if one takes pollution into account.  A whole other topic for discussion, Canada is a member of the Paris Climate Accord.  Regards, Gary 

[trimacar]

3 hours ago, cxgvd said:

I should remind everyone Canadian fuel has the price of carbon credits added to the cost of fuel, so it may be closer to the actual cost of driving if one takes pollution into account.  A whole other topic for discussion, Canada is a member of the Paris Climate Accord.  Regards, Gary 

Canada is a member, does it contribute monetarily?  The United States is considered an "industrialized" country, thus it would have partly funded the Paris climate agreement.  Countries such as China and India are classified as "developing" countries, and do not have to contribute monetarily.  That sure sounds fair, sheesh.  So, is Canada in industrial country, or a developing country?

 

I don't think the price of gas has much to do with old car values, and the same can be said of price guides.

 

Things always change.  The car collecting hobby will be changing too.  However, anyone who likes old cars, and doesn't buy one now because they're waiting for values to be pennies on the dollar, is wasting the time they could have had making friends and enjoying the experience of old car driving.

[alsancle]

8 minutes ago, trimacar said:

Things always change.  The car collecting hobby will be changing too.  However, anyone who likes old cars, and doesn't buy one now because they're waiting for values to be pennies on the dollar, is wasting the time they could have had making friends and enjoying the experience of old car driving.

 

I think the price of run of the mill projects will approach scrap value eventually.   But, I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a Classic  car dealer almost 20 years ago.  At that point I was on the way younger side of the curve, and I was convinced demographics would cause prices to head down, if not collapse.   He laughed at me.  The particular cars we were talking about are up 200-250% since that conversation.

[R.White]

Procrastination is the thief of time.  My neighbour who has a collection of vintage and classic cars has a MG TC in bits; it has been like this for 30 years or more.  He has been prevaricating about rebuilding it for so long no one believes he will actually get round to it.  I have offered to buy the MG from him but he refuses, saying he will restore it "one day". I can't begin to imagine how many old cars are languishing for years on end like this.  The trouble is that when someone dies the scrap man is called to clear the garage because the average person has no idea that the pile of bits in the garage might be worth something.

 

Ray.

[60FlatTop]

6 minutes ago, R.White said:

the average person has no idea that the pile of bits in the garage might be worth something.

 

There is a good chance the person who does find it will be either above average or below average, but not average. So, it does have a 50% chance of being saved.

 

Prevaricating looks like the word of the day. I am meeting a friend for coffee this afternoon and I am going to ask him if he doesn't get things done because he spends too much time prevaricating while his other hand is on the mouse.

Bernie

[60FlatTop]

18 hours ago, cxgvd said:

I fuelled up today at $121.9 per liter Canadian.  Larry it seems to me it takes 3.78 lt per US Gallon and our dollar sells for about a 25% discount to yours.

 

I was filling my '60 Electra on Saturday and the guy at the next pump asked about my car. Then he said "That car was built back when they didn't care about gas prices." I asked him if it looked like I did.

 

Imagine if he knew there were four more plus a tractor at home, in a separate building I had built just to house them, and the building had a natural gas service and electrical service to heat it and run the compressor and lighting, and what I spent on tools and all the other hobby expenses.

 

Nope, he didn't even know I swiped the pump with a debit card that had my Wife's name on it.

Bernie

[John348]

1 hour ago, trimacar said:

Canada is a member, does it contribute monetarily?  The United States is considered an "industrialized" country, thus it would have partly funded the Paris climate agreement.  Countries such as China and India are classified as "developing" countries, and do not have to contribute monetarily.  That sure sounds fair, sheesh.  So, is Canada in industrial country, or a developing country?

 

I don't think the price of gas has much to do with old car values, and the same can be said of price guides.

 

Things always change.  The car collecting hobby will be changing too.  However, anyone who likes old cars, and doesn't buy one now because they're waiting for values to be pennies on the dollar, is wasting the time they could have had making friends and enjoying the experience of old car driving.

 

The part of the hobby that the price of fuel has an affect on is participation. That really applies to pulling a trailer X,000 of miles to go play some of those on a fixed income might be forced to think about it. When I take one out for a ride the cheapest part of the day is gas in the tank.

[60FlatTop]

Whether a country is industrialized could be determined by certain signs.

And a sense of urgency to keep your fuel tank filled.

 

Eh,

 

Bernie

[padgett]

Any polar bears here would be trying to cool off and not running. OTOH I tend to avoid parts of the country that have "Thickly Settled" signs.

[R.White]

36 minutes ago, padgett said:

Any polar bears here would be trying to cool off and not running. OTOH I tend to avoid parts of the country that have "Thickly Settled" signs.

 

Well, I thought it was funny anyway.  Do you get many perspiring polar bears down there?

[MikeC5]

I like the word 'prevaricating' too.  The first time I remember hearing it was watching Wallace & Gromit.  "There's no prevaricating about the bush...."

Edited January 30, 2018 by MikeC5 (see edit history)

[R.White]

My Mother used to accuse me of being "deliberately obtuse".

 

She was probably right.