Circa 1910 monster- identification wanted

[Chris Paulsen]

I'm not sure what it is but I'd clear out my garage for it! What is it?

[Leif Holmberg]

How about Underslung around 1910?

Leif in Sweden.

[nzcarnerd]

10 minutes ago, Leif Holmberg said:

How about Underslung around 1910?

Leif in Sweden.

Definitely not 'underslung'.

[nzcarnerd]

I have quite a few unidentified photos of similar cars. One make that made something like this was Matheson, but I am sure there were quite a few others.

 

Edit - Just been having a look through my mystery cars file and found this same pic - labelled 'unk' -  filed in 2010. Had a play with it to try to make it clearer but I don't think it is much better.

[nzcarnerd]

It is very tempting to say this car is a Matheson - long hood, high radiator filler, five bolts front hub, six bolt rear hub. The only difference is the front fenders have an 'eyebrow'. The following year Mathesons have a different curve in the front fender.

 

More here -  http://theoldmotor.com/?p=16630

 

There are several versions of this ad on the net.

[keiser31]

The hood to cowl transition looks to be smoother on the car in question.

[JV Puleo]

There are questions in my mind as to how much we can rely on early advertisements to look EXACTLY like big cars that were produced in small numbers and all of which probably had at least semi-custom bodies. None of the minor details of these bodies were chiseled in stone like they would be even 30 years later when huge body and fender dies were used to make them.

[keiser31]

1 minute ago, JV Puleo said:

There are questions in my mind as to how much we can rely on early advertisements to look EXACTLY like big cars that were produced in small numbers and all of which probably had at least semi-custom bodies. None of the minor details of these bodies were chiseled in stone like they would be even 30 years later when huge body and fender dies were used to make them.

The hood to fender height is a lot different, too.

[JV Puleo]

That would be significant... That said, the cuts used to print those illustrations are not photographs. Having spent a good part of my life in the printing business, and collecting printed material for the past 50 years, I'd be very careful how much emphasis I placed on minor details in non-photographic illustrations. They all passed through the hands of people who converted an artists' rendering into a copper or zinc engraving. There is plenty of room for slight differences in proportion though, in general, I think they did a very good job. I'm only suggesting that small items, like the exact curve of a fender, could easily be off to a degree that would not have bothered the original user but might confuse a latter-day collector if he were applying the same standards of precision that we would expect from a photograph of a 1950s car.

 

I know from personal experience, where I have both the sales material and the car, that some of the illustrations and even the specifications listed in the original material differ from the finished product. Some of this I attribute to the length of time it took to prepare the illustrations. In many cases, work may have begun on the printed material before the car was actually in production (hence the owners manual for my 1910 Mitchell makes no mention or illustration of the carburetor... it apparently hadn't been decided on when the booklet was printed).

[keiser31]

Yep....artists' renderings can certainly be a lot different than the actual production models. VERY obvious in the 1930's "lower profile than actual" renderings like on this 1936 Chrysler Airstream with an extra low roof....

Edited December 31, 2017 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

1 minute ago, keiser31 said:

Yep....artists' renderings can certainly be a lot different than the actual production models. VERY obvious in the 1930's "lower profile than actual" renderings like on this 1936 Chrysler Airstream with an extra low roof....

And they used midget people to make the cars look bigger.

[Leif Holmberg]

How about a "striped" Thomas flyer  around 1909-1910.? 

Leif in Sweden.

[Gunsmoke]

Admittedly a very close comparison, proportions right, sweep on front entry, molding middle of doors, 10/12 spoke wheels, etc. However there are many different details suggesting perhaps different year/model or make.

 

Different details: photo car has a dropped lip on front fenders which are also flat on top instead of slightly curved; Rear door handle vertical versus horizontal; No side apron on photo car (may have been removed by owner); Folding windshield different on both cars, as well as leather tie straps to roof on one car, to windshield on other; hood in photo seems plain while "Flyer" hood has decorative moldings; Flyer has decorative & functional step into rear seat area on RB; Flyer has back of driver's seat rising to a height slightly less than the measure of upper part of rear door (proportions), while the photo car back of seat rises much higher proportionally; Flyer has clear dropped exhaust pipe at front wheel opening, while nothing shows on photo car; Flyer also has "box" in this area, possibly a later added battery?; cowl dimensions, and detail, including heavy raised molding abutting hood on Flyer are different. A lot of these details can be explained away, so I'm inclined to think it is a Thomas Flyer of some sort. 

[Varun Coutinho]

On 12/31/2017 at 3:25 AM, Chris Paulsen said:

I'm not sure what it is but I'd clear out my garage for it! What is it?

1910 Palmer-Singer Model 6-60 Toy Tonneau (non-standard front fenders)

 

Detroit Public Library Photo Attached : 1909  

[sagefinds]

On 12/30/2017 at 2:55 PM, Chris Paulsen said:

I'm not sure what it is but I'd clear out my garage for it! What is it?

If you find one and have a garage sale,call me would you Chris?