Are show cars still historic vehicles

[chistech]

I have read every post here and agree with most everything said. While I'm a very small hobby restoration shop, I always try to do the absolutely best work I can do. I do everything but engine rebuilding and painting.  I have a machine shop for the engines and a good friend who owns a paint shop. I believe a good car that's driveable and in serviceable condition on the inside should stay the way it is and be rewarded for it's ability to survive. If I get a basket case or rough condition car and it's mine, it will get a full restoration back to OEM as close as I can do it. While most times I spend almost equal effort both in the physical restoration as the research of the restoration. I will try and use all correct fasteners, rubber, etc. just like it came from the factory. I will not remove casting marks, frame stress stretch marks, and any oddities that are in the metal as they were there originally. Some items I will polish more than others as I know living here in the New England area, the environment will quickly add a patina to those polished surfaces yielding a more original finish than not polishing and getting a heavier corrosion than a "as delivered" car would have. (at least this is the reasoning for my polishing and so far, with my 31' has worked). There are many things that we end up doing slightly better in our restorations than was what done originally. Painting the inside of my body metal on my 32' Olds is one that quickly comes to mind. Most of us do these type of things to help preserve our cars better because modern times have taught us techniques to do so. 

     There are times I find myself going over some things that are so trivial, that I think most wouldn't bother. Things like fuel line fittings, rivet head size, was the pinstripe at the edge of demarcation or inside that line by X? But, it's those things that matter to me. If I can get the most correct features into my restoration that my research has taught me, I will. Though sometimes my work or my painter's work might be better than original, if it's correct, to me, it's not over restoring our cars. I've done some things that won't even be seen but I know that it's there and documentation of the restoration shows that it's there. For example, I coated all the wood frame work in my Olds with Copper Naphthalene. No, it's not the original copper arsenic that was used, but it is in the same family, is also green tinted, and hopefully safer to work with. In my research I've found out many things I've seen done incorrectly on other 32' Olds that have consistently won awards. Things like fully chromed horn trumpets, wrong trim rings, too wide of pinstriping, and a few other small things that most would never notice and mistakes I'm trying to avoid. My goal with my 32' Olds DCR (wood wheeled deluxe, 249 total built), is to have the most correct, closest to "as delivered from Lansing" roadster known.  Why, because it's what I want and what it comes down to is what we each really want for ourselves to make ourselves happy. This is OUR hobby, and we should all enjoy it as we each want to. There are too many things to drive us crazy in our day to day lives. I try and leave that out of my hobby.

[trimacar]

13 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Any one on this forum do Upholstery/interiors. Does it take any extra effort to cut material even, or to have your seams line up? Any one do paint? Does it take any extra effort to lay down a good paint job? Any one do metal fab? Any extra effort to weld it up right??

 

Yes, in between my engineering career, I worked at a professional restoration company as a trimmer, have done it as a hobby even while being employed, and now do it for fun and keeping in touch with people (although I'm not taking in any new work).  I apprenticed under a Master Trimmer, and there were no shortcuts or "good enough".  He said get every stitch correct, and the whole job will be correct.  I recently had a friend ask me about getting into the trimming business, and my first question was, do you have patience?  My second question was, if you see you've made a mistake, are you willing to rip hours of work apart and start over to get it correct?  Nothing sticks out worse on a restored car than poor paint or poor upholstery.  The problem I've seen is that upholstery is the last thing one usually does on a restoration, by then money and tempers may be short, the owner wants the car finished quickly, so the trimmer can sometimes take a beating.  If you're going to have someone do your upholstery, budget for them, and include them in your restoration plans early, not at the last minute, so when the car is delivered to them it's ready for the job.

 

When I worked at the restoration company, often people would come in and say they just wanted a "driver".  What that translated to in real life was, when the frame was sandblasted, and the undercarriage cleaned, no big effort was expended on filling in rust pits.  That's just about the only place you can "skimp".  You can't do a so-so paint job, or upholstery job, you can't put on poor chrome work, or scratched glass.  So, the owner would save a couple of thousand dollars, car would still be expensive yet win awards, with maybe a few points taken off for the undercarriage.

 

As far as seams and factory work go, I've quit even asking the question of owners.  I'm working on a seat for a car now, it has 4 inch pleats.  Or does it?  When you measure, you might find one that's 4-1/4 inch, one that's 4, one that's 3-7/8.  Do I duplicate this?  Of course not.  I once replicated a beautiful original early top (from the 1907 era).  I actually made two of them, on two sets of replicated irons and bows.  The original top had the large rounded top, decorative, tacks on the trim strips front and back.  The spacing of the tacks was random on the original top, and in fact in the side curve on the back, one side had two tacks and one side had three tacks.  I did talk to the fellow I was doing this for (HI! He's on this forum), and of course we decided to space the new tacks evenly.  Otherwise, can you imagine the people who would be critical of the job?  But, when the top was made, it was in a production mode, and spacing of tacks took a backseat to getting the job out the door.

 

One more story.  At the restoration shop, we had a body man and painter, let's call him Dave since that was his name.  He was fantastic at his job, when he was done painting a car, it was "optically correct", and flawless.  The shop gave tours, and one day a fellow came through, and asked Dave how he got such a beautiful finish on the sheet metal.  Well, Dave explained, you clean the metal, then work it to get it as straight as possible, even painting black coats of paint so that you could see if there were any flaws.  After getting the body work done and in primer, and using the thinnest putty you can to correct any very minor flaws, then sanding, then priming, even paint again in black to check, sand off black, start laying paint, sanding between coats, laying on even coats of paint, then wet sanding and buffing the final coat.  "No, that sounds like a lot of work", the tourist replied, "What's the EASY way to do it?"..........................

[SC38dls]

Xander. Those cars are beautiful and looks like very well built. As I’ve said before I love your Hudson Big Boy Truck. It looks great but the best part in my opinion is you drive it. Show cars have there place and guys that build them are very talented. Guys that buy them or have them restored demand (rightfully so) them to be perfect for the dollars spent. I just think there are two worlds out there that are never going to agree. Overbuilt show cars and well built drivers. I’m happy to have a driver and happy to go to shows to SEE show cars. I guess I’m saying both have places 

Dave S

Edited December 19, 2017 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Economics of the 1980's cause a shift in investor money from traditional items to cars. Prior to that "old" cars, collectible or not weren't really popular with the masses.

In the 1970's I remember a bunch of bib overalled geezers with their Fords who supported their hobby by shrewd purchases in the past and untaxed income mostly from farming, but other business endeavors, as well. The better cars were owned by professional people or those generally a bit more wealthy than the common guy. Take a look at some of those old Hershey video clips or period club magazines. You can tell by the clothes.

The "investor" cash raised the bar. And the supporting cottage industries expanded what Sears and Roebuck had done with tires and batteries. In the 1990's I redid some 100 point work of the '70's to meet the new standards.

 

Today we have a lot of aging people with long memories and short tolerance, as we had before.

 

My Uncle had a body shop then. He was a true Dutch Uncle, big guy, always smiling, and a full beer for lunch. My Dad said that someone came into his shop around 1960 and sold him a can of fiberglass and he had been smiling ever since. They did a few restorations.... and industrial lockers, too.

 

When it came to quality I remember guys in the used car trade who were very discerning- this job doesn't matter, it can be crappy, this job has to be good. Already a cynical youth, I decided maybe I wasn't that small and I better stick to doing the best I could on EVERY job. I have stuck pretty close to that in all aspects of my life and it has worked out well. That includes lining the damned screw heads up, avoiding misunderstood abbreviations, and looking up the spelling of a person's name if I send them a message. Same goes for cars.

 

I looked at the example cars pictured above. They look good, but the usual Craigslist question popped into my head. "Did you save the factory wheels?"

Bernie

Edited December 19, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

I agree with what you said trimacar. But you just made my point. Taking a car to you, the end result will be over restored. Because you have the skills, talent, vision, work ethic and desire to do quality work. The restoration side is pined in the corner. This is how it was, this is how it needs to be, this is what that costs. The street rod/custom side can cut corners all over the place. You can make choices over the build that can save a lot of money. But the end result still will be a high quality build, just with different material choices. Steel wheels with chrome caps $650.00. Custom polished rims $3,500.00. The car will drive the same. But the restoration/build of the car should be quality through out, because it is being done by people with skill/talent. Painters in body shops will tell you, the hardest thing to do. Is not laying down and buffing out a nice paint job. It is having to match a orange pealed factory paint job. Hard to ask someone who does good work, to tone down their skills and put out a poor product. The longer a person does a trade, the better and faster they get at doing it. They can do the job with fewer mistakes, and get it done in a quicker time frame. So does a customer pay less for the faster/less hours worked, no. The quality shop charges more for the work done because the customer is buying quality/skill/talent and end result. Where quality shops start to slide is in the time frame that they should be able to get stuff done in. People with the funds, do not mind paying the bill, if it gets done. Around here you can watch a dirt field get turned into a Cosco. And over the same time frame some poor guys 38 Ford is still in bare metal sitting in a shop. The construction world could never get away with some of the stuff that goes on with the cars. I would take over restored/built any day, it means skilled people worked on it.

[trimacar]

21 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Taking a car to you, the end result will be over restored.

 

This is true, particularly for the production cars of the twenties and thirties. 

 

If you look at clear pictures of early, oughts and teens, cars, you'll see that in most cases the workmanship quality was quite high.  The carriage trade was very mature, thus trim work was a skill that a LOT of people had.  You can see tops and button tuft jobs in the pictures that are exquisite.

 

As far as the top mentioned above that I replicated, it was beautifully done, and in oh-my-gosh original condition.  With the exception of randomly spaced decorative tacks, there was little to find fault with.

 

I've not judged in AACA, I know that the condition, fit and finish, criteria is partly "as the car left the dealer" .  If I were judging under that standard, then minor deviations in upholstery work, or minor paint flaws, would never receive a point deduction.   I'm not sure that's the case in the real world, most judges, I would think, are looking for something approaching perfection, thus the over restored criteria that now exists.

 

If one is really conscientious about their handiwork, it's hard to do something that's "good enough".  If you have the patience and talent to do it correctly (as in even seams and symmetry of pattern), then it's hard to do it incorrectly and leave it.  I'd compare it to the act of a singer with a fine voice, who's asked to sing off key.  Sure, they can do it, but it's difficult for them.......

[chistech]

Funny isn't it. Those of us who just can't do anything but to try and do quality work are over restoring our cars simply because we might be good at what we do and can't bring ourselves to do what we feel is inferior work! So with that said, I think most of us are happy with our "over restoring".  

 

PS: I was brought up with my dad telling me that your personal trademark in life is the quality of person you are, including how you act, how you treat others, and the work you produce. He said if you back away from something you're doing and feel you could do it better, then you should,  not just be content to leave it, and you should always be happy with the person you see in the mirror. This is how I've lived my life and how I brought my kids up. My son is now having problems with it as he is an electrical foreman in the Union and tells me there are lots of men who don't have that sort of ethic. It kills him that wires are not straight, bends are not the same on a manifold, panel boards looks like spaghetti, etc. He called me the other day and said I "ruined him". He was joking of course. By the way, he's 27, been working for this company for 18 months, and they just called him in the office to offer him a huge promotion noting the offer was in part, because of the very work ethic/production that "ruined" him!

[chistech]

Thought I'd add a recent experience with a vehicle owner. I was sent a car for new paint, new roof, new interior, and new chrome. It was going to be a "driver" so some drivetrain improvements were also scheduled. (no changing of original drivetrain, just better cooling, braking, etc) As most of us know, once we open these old cars up, there's often hidden demons and I do wood era GM cars so yup, there's almost always wood issues. When painting these cars, it's better to fully disassemble them also so I always put the body on my rotisserie leaving the chassis. On this car, the motor was painted 5 different colors, and the chassis was painted 6. The customer didn't originally want to do anything with the motor or chassis but I explained that with a nicely painted car, how would he not want to open the hood to show the car off and if he did, what about the motor? So the motor/trans got pulled, stripped of all paint, and repainted along with other work like planing of the warped manifold, new gaskets, removing the pan and cleaning out 5lbs of oil sludge, etc.. Now, it left us with everything done but the rear of the chassis as the owner wanted the front of the chassis cleaned and freshened. Now I start thinking, it's what the customer wants but what about the first time he shows off his newly restored car?????? Someone is going to climb underneath and see the multicolored chassis and say, "who the hell restored this car for you"? Why didn't they finish the chassis? Who would even do work like this? Etc.  Knowing that the customer was spending a fair amount on this car and most likely sending me another, I finished the rear of the chassis off for no charge. It was 17hrs of work and a quart of gloss black single stage. So it goes back to what was said earlier and some of us suffer from it. Our inability to do lousy work or to even let something go that makes us uncomfortable. I would rather make less and have a reputation for good work than have someone think I did a bad job even though it was what the owner actually wanted. The owner is a really nice guy, just wanted a great looking reliable driver, and meant nothing by telling me to leave the chassis as is because it didn't matter to him for his purpose. To me, it meant what others might think of my work down the road because they never would know what the owner's original intentions for the car were. 

[cxgvd]

If you professional restorers are finished patting yourselves on the back please return to the original poster's question.  They are beautifully restored cars but are they still historically significant?  Regards, Gary

[trimacar]

OK, well, I'm not really a professional restorer, but I guess my arm is a little sore.  I was just trying to show real world examples of how people perceive a restoration, and that, when a person is spending money on a restoration, it's virtually impossible not to "over restore" if the craftsman wants to receive a check for his or her work at the end of the month.

 

Now, on to the discussion of the Charter of Turin, which is what the Hemmings article awkwardly weaves into the restoration discussion.

 

The main focus of the Charter is for countries around the world to recognize the historical significance of antique and vintage automobiles, and to NOT pass legislation which significantly limits the use of same on public roads.

 

There is very little verbiage in the Charter which addresses anything such as over restoration, and the Hemmings article is just, in my opinion, making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

Restored cars are definitely part of the heritage to which the Charter of Turin is directed.  The Charter does mention that there should not be significant changes to the cars discussed, but I don't think that the intent was to banish a well-painted car from the honor roll.  I believe these comments are directed more toward highly modified cars, not over restored cars which, although they may be glossier above and below, are still historically significant.

 

So, to answer the original post, yes, they are still historically significant.

 

I've subscribed to Hemmings since the mid 1960's.  Back then it was all advertising.  Now, there are articles and editorials.  In my opinion, quite a few of the editorials, and even some of the stories,  are just silly, and the viewpoints don't serve any useful purpose for the old car hobby.

Edited December 19, 2017 by trimacar (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Again, I don't think anyone is criticizing the work of restorers; I wish this discussion hadn't taken that sad turn. The problem is more directly related to the clubs responsible for the judging and the owners who figure that they're paying for something, so it damned well better be perfect. The guys doing the work aren't deciding where the limits are, the guys writing the checks are. I understand about doing your best and wanting an excellent result that you can show with pride, but if customers were demanding to have orange peel in their paint so they could win top awards, I'm quite certain the best restorers would be laying down some heavily textured paint, personal standards of quality be damned.

 

I continue to believe that in mixed-marque clubs the only way to make judging work is to turn it into a beauty contest, which is what drives this phenomenon. Single-marque clubs like the NCRS have the ability to set different standards that are easier to enforce among a known group of cars where experts are readily available. Making a Corvette imperfectly perfect is insanely difficult. No offense to the restorers, but it's relatively easy to make a flat, smooth, glossy surface. But to replicate crappy factory workmanship, including built-in flaws? Now that's a real trick.

 

Perfection is the only standard that can be reliably quantified and measured between dissimilar vehicles. So here we are. It won't change. It should, but it won't. The perception is more important than the reality and I don't think many people are doing it for the history anyway. They're doing it because they like the cars more or less the way they were.

 

More or less.

[Paul Dobbin]

As my display sign says.  "Restored to good used car condition. and it is used regularly"   

As Larry Schramm said, "The best "trophies" are memories with friends driving on tours.  There is nothing better that engaging the average person to the joys of an old car and driving it." , or as Dave S. said  "A thumbs up, a wave and big smile or someone saying nice car is the best trophy I can get. Then I also get to drive it home, how can you beat that."

[Tim Wolfe]

We have two cars, an all original Brougham and a Coupe show car. One was a professional restoration and the other has never been touched other than maintaining it. They were shipped four days apart from the same factory and inspected when built by the same inspector. I enjoy both of them.

[39BuickEight]

I like to think of restoring a car as a course in higher education, where instead of books, you buy a car and tools, and instead of a diploma, you get more friends, auto knowledge, and a big smile.  The journey is the prize.

 

I do like what Steve said, some cars need to be restored and some don't.

Edited December 20, 2017 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 4:57 PM, SC38DLS said:

Unfortunately I don’t think I will ever own a show car. There is no way I could afford the 30,000 plus hours to make a car show worthy. That’s ok as I really like working on them and enjoy driving them more.  My old 49 F3 Ford pickup barn find (yes a real barn find, the last barn in the city of Chicago) only took 15 years to restore and make drivable. The current 38 Studebaker was another barn find. No body work but paint buff out, engine rebuild, brakes and electrical rebiuld. It’s a driver and it’s a ball to drive. I’m sure judges would not allow it on the show field but it attracts all kinds of people young and old where ever I go. I always have to tell someone about it and have even been pulled over by a few cops just to talk about it. A thumbs up, a wave and big smile or someone saying nice car is the best trophy I can get. Then I also get to drive it home, how can you beat that. 

Dave S 

 

Dave,

 

I would disagree with you on saying that you will never own a "show car".  You have the very wrong definition on what "show car" means at least to me and many others. 

 

The fact that you have a '38 Studebaker is awesome to the average person on the street.  You need to remember that if I read the population demographic reports correctly, less than 2% of the population was born when your car was built.

 

I encourage you to drive it, let others see it on the road and let them sit on the inside with your supervision.  Maybe even give some rides if you can.  My wife and I drive our '15 truck all summer to different events including Church, to the restaurant, car drive-ins, meeting with other car "guys", Costco, Kroger, and on tours with driving groups.  One of the best groups that I would encourage you to look at is the VMCCA.  I also like the Horseless Carriage Club (but they are generally pre '16) as they are about driving and enjoying the cars and sharing with the public.  Some of the best sayings that I have heard with the HCCA is the best trophy that you can get is a set of word out tires that you purchased nes.

 

Lord knows how many rides that I have given in my '15 truck.  It is a very rewarding experience to you and them.  I guarantee that it is more memorable than any trophy that you would get on a "show field"

 

Larry

[Doug Novak]

This argument will never be resolved as both positions are correct for two different opinions on what a classic car needs, or does not need to be. Basically it's your car, you own it and make what you want it to be that makes you happy.

 

As for over restoration if you look at fine art hanging on the walls of the best Museums, most have been touched up at one time or another. Coin collectors are told to never clean or polish their coins as it devalues them which is true. Some think shined up polished coins would increase their value and be easier to sell, not true. Different strokes for different folks.

[SC38dls]

Larry - I do drive the 38 about 3 or 4 days a week.. As long as there is no snow or salt it is my daily driver.  I let people get in it for pictures all the time. I have the two blonds below in the back seat most of the time also. I call it driving Miss Gracie and Miss Sophie.  When I said I will never have a show car I was just referring to the super restored cars they are talking about in this thread.  I think they are great to look at but I have the fun if driving mine all the time.

Dave S 

[Larry Schramm]

Dave,

Love the dogs. By your definition, I will never have a show car either.

 

As my wife tells people,  "we don't collect trophies, just smiles"

Edited December 21, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

The Jaguar that I am building will be finished to the level of a show car. It is a custom build, and modified everywhere. It will also be driven, I will see to that. Alot of show cars are built just for show, buying some of them is a roll of the dice. All of the cars that I put in the shows are 100% road worthy. Not all show cars can say that.

[Ed Luddy]

Great topic, lot's of equally great responses. I've never been a Concours fan, but I have friends who are. I giggle at the chassis & frames that have zero imperfections and layers of mirror gloss paint, watersanded and clear-coated. But it's their money and car,so go for it! Crayon and chalk marks, reproduction stamps, fake date coding, endless agonizing over proper jack instruction decal placement just doesn't make a car any better, but some people live for that stuff and the trophies that go along with it.

 The only sad part of it to me is that younger people who wern't around when these cars were new or a few years old now have a warped sense of whats factory correct, which was far from perfect.

 My 63 Studebaker GT Hawk or my 74  Eldorado give me a dose of reality everytime I get behind the wheel of how far modern car build quality has come. They give me a trip back to my youth and it's forgotten flaws that my Genesis or Toyota will  never match!

[cxgvd]

Since this thread is still going, I'll add my current thinking.  Two years ago I bought a deteriorated older restoration 1915 McLaughlin (a Canadian Buick) which we know the history of from new.  The fellow I purchased it from owned it for 50 years and it was a very good and complete car.  I am restoring the car for touring and hopefully will earn a first Junior award.  Not perfect but historically correct.

 

For instance the wooden wheels are stripped and refinished in 3 coats of Spar Varnish.  They are sound, smooth and shiny but show blems and are definitely not new.  A workman fabricated these wheels a 100 years ago, collected his pay check, bought a house, perhaps fought and died at Vimy Ridge.  Somewhere a man may have told his offspring that granddad worked as a woodworker at Col. Sam's shop in Oshawa.  The wheels could of been filled and sanded, fill and sanded and painted to look new or even replaced.  Though these are the wheels which rolled through both world wars, the space age and both Trudeau governments.  They earned their knocks, I think that is provenance.  

 

The car is really for my granddaughter, maybe when she is ready she will be in a position to keep it and say my granddad fixed it for me or the car will be sold to help pay for her home or education.  A definition of a movable savings account.  Regards, Gary

 

 

 

[SC38dls]

13 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

The Jaguar that I am building will be finished to the level of a show car. It is a custom build, and modified everywhere. It will also be driven, I will see to that. Alot of show cars are built just for show, buying some of them is a roll of the dice. All of the cars that I put in the shows are 100% road worthy. Not all show cars can say that.

If you need a test driver for these beautiful cars when you are finished building them, I would be very happy to volunteer! Each drive may take a few days.  

Dave S 

[padgett]

My opinion is that for many cars (a few are well documented) time spent in research can be just as difficult/demanding as the restoration itself. Take a T-41 nose  job on a wagon. Those could only be built in Framingham because that was the only plant that had all of the necessary parts. Or a '78 V8 4-speed Sunbird that was not available with AC (my specialized knowledge is limited mainly to cars I've owned) and that proper judging would take most of a day and require some disassembly to check date codes.

 

Clearly at a multi-marque show this is absurd.

 

So as the gentleman said to the lady: "We've decided that, what we are negotiating is the price."  For me, I am more concerned with keeping my cars safe and comfortable to drive than stock. However being AR/OCD I save all of the original parts in big baggies (trash bags for tires and wheels) and most of the changes are period/manufacturer correct. (BTW before I took delivery of my GS in 1970 I had the dealer replace the bias-belted tires with dog-bone Dunlop radials on larger wheels so have been "modifying" for a looong time.

 

ps back in the 60s and 70s, the most expensive options were the premium (AM-FM, then stereo, then 8-tracks) radios and wheels/tires so often dealers flooplanned and customers ordered the base AM radio (this was before the "radio accommodation package" was forced by SEMA) and stock dog dish wheels/hubcaps while the purchaser would have the good wheels/tires/radio under their bed even before the car was built. Adds a whole dimension to "as built".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sligermachine]

On 12/18/2017 at 10:31 AM, lump said:

and will never cease.

I have won 1 place with my last 1929 ford truck . the week i finished it I did doughnuts in my front yard in the rain smoking the back wheels off  after 7 years of work making it as perfect as I could make it but I was going to drive its wheels off . all cars should be driven to the show in my thought . your right everybody's got a opinion  .the last big car show in my town I live in I was asked to judge man it was as hard as all get out somany of the cars were so perfect .---kyle

[Guest alleyyooper]

We attended many shows last summer with our 1985 Buick LaSabre collectors edition. We never expected any trophys from the shows because in the first place they are judged by people. No matter what your told people have biaesest options. One show we attended every throphy went to a Ford Mustang, Pest paint, Best engine, least modified, best in ahow and the whole ball of wax, the best in show was a 2012 model all tricked out with chrome and polish.

 

We attended a show where the car owners were the judges and the cars/trucks were broken down into year class. Many cars won a throphy, cars we had seen passed over at many other shows.

We our selves recived a trophy a memoriel trophy for the best orginal 1985 and older car.

 

Our car had sat out side for about 8 years in all kinds of weather. The roof paint was so thin it was starting to show signs of surface rust. the trunk lid was full of paint cracks and pits as was the hood. the engine compartment was an embarrassment as it had over heated a week before and I had not taken the time to do more than hose the anti freeze off.

 

I also have to laugh about crayon marks on cars same model one has a mark and the other doesn't. I worked for Fisher Body Pontiac. In 1969 when th efirst down sized Grand Prix was rolling down the line I was asigned to install power window wires and ther vacum door lock hoese and courtesy light wires in the door and thru to the fire wall. Management was complaining on routeing issues with some, So I started useing a paint stick and marked a AC on the fire wall just ahead of the fender mounting holes so they were hidden at final assembly.

We were also assembleming trhe GTO judge on the same line, Most didn't have power windows but many had the door pad lights so they also got the paint stick AC.

 

Also keep in mind that by 1969 Chrysler Corp was in deep CACA money wise. I looked at a new Dodge Dart for my sister. Told my sister to pass on it as it appered to be a kit car to me. The glove box was just stuffed in the opening, the door rubbers were hanging slack under the doors. I couldn't believe they allowed that crap to miss inspection and repair from the factory.

 

I had bought a 1969 Mercury Murader X100, Japenese steel was used in the MFG and it had rusted out wheel wells in 18 months.

 

The trash all the companies were trying to sell the public then was some thing else.

 

 

 Al

Edited December 22, 2017 by alleyyooper (see edit history)

[chistech]

@“Are show cars still historic vehicles?” 

 

That’s a loaded question when you think about it. One would believe any vehicle made years ago is a part of history regardless of how it’s restored or preserved. If someone took a one off and hot rodded it, the fact that the car even exists is historic. I believe the question is more to whether the car is restored in a historically correct fashion or a modern type fashion. You could have two cars with 100% correct physical options but one is over shiny finish base/clear coat and the other is single stage, color sanded, and buffed. In truth, neither might be correct as even the single stage polished to a more factory luster is still not lacquer and possibly that car was painted with lacquer. So, both these have been restored to their historic, as delivered, optioned cars, their finish is slightly incorrect due mostly to the unavailability of the original chemical composition paint. I’m willing to bet both of the owners probably would have used original type paint if it was available. So, does this make them “ non-historical “? Not really but are they as historic as an untouched, unrestored original? There’s the loaded question. If that vehicle is truly untouched then I would say “No” as that vehicle has not been altered in any way as it was delivered “X” amount of years ago. Now, we all know that a lot can happen to these cars over the course of their life, with many owners making whatever repairs necessary to keep them on the road. Now, someone might have purchased the car later in its life and put things back to original but it can’t really be as historically correct as that other, never touched, car. Can it? Also, with our early cars, none of us can truthfully know how it was really delivered. Case in point is something I personally experienced. In 1978, my dad ordered a Chevy K30, single cab pickup in Forest green paint. It was a stripped option work truck. When the dealer called to pick it up and we got there, this is what we found. Chevy bow tie on the grill, hubcaps, and horn cap. GMC on the passenger side dash trim and Sierra 3500 emblems on the fenders. There was also a dent right in the middle of the hood center rib. So, if this truck was still in existence today, what would happen at show? Wouldn’t it be very historic to leave it as it was or even restore it with those irregularities. Not arguing with any statements here, just sighting other observations and opinions.

[ted sweet]

in mustang judging  an overstored car wont win.

[gsjohnny]

At a car show in durham ct back in the early 80's if memory serves, met  a guy with a unrestored dusenberg 2 dr coupe. The car was as is, was unrestored and driven regularly. I asked why it wasn't restored. Said 'you can't drive it from the grave'. I heard he is still alive and still has the car. Looking back, that wisdom changed my mind about as is and restored cars. I had, my son has it now, an 67 buick special, all original, unrestored. it won an award in the originality class. But since then, the driveline has been upgraded in the h/p area. All the original parts are stored away. The car was shown and raced before and now with the changes. It still gets attention wherever it goes. We will never spend stupid money on making it a trailer queen. (a trailer queen is like having a blow-up doll for a date) We also have a 1968 front end dragster that was built to run top fuel in 1968, but never did. We try to make close to '68 specs ,aka visual, with a buick motor. Both these machines see plenty of abuse. They are just made out of metal. They can be fixed. Fixed for peeble beech style is way out of our vision. It's like living in the taj mahal wit your nose up in the air. I like the crowd I hang out with better. They are a better grade of people imho. 

 

just my $.02...because that's all I got.

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

In 2007-08 I took over the build of a project car for a customer. You see it in the picture below, A 1937 Ford. Behind the Ford you can see a Cuda. The Cuda was in the same class "antique restored" that our Packard was in. I did not do the restoration on the Packard, we bought it the way you see it. I cleared out the shop to build a display for the Packard. You are judged on how the display fits the car, a 20x20 display gets more credit then a 10x20 space. Over the course of the show I talked to the owner of the Cuda a few times, nice guy, the Cuda was a very nice car. It was over restored, no Cuda was that nice from the factory. The owner of the Cuda was worried that the Packard would beat him and get best in class. If he did not win best, he would not have enough points to go too the nationals back east. It did not matter to me how the Packard did, after the show I would just drive about seven miles up the road to go home. A lot of things were stacked against the Cuda to win, it was just roped off, no display, in a 10x20. The Cuda won best antique restored. never getting a judging sheet I do not know what was wrong with the Packard. (nothing) And did not care. I know that people are not going to bump out a car on tour, for a car that is just going up the road. And I was fine with that, but it does give a person some insight to the fact that no matter how nice a car is, the show must go on. Build/restore every car as nice as you can, and when the winners are picked, use that time to buy one more beer, before they shut down the beer vendors.      

[Matt Harwood]

What did the Packard do that it needs to be kept in a cage?

[Xander Wildeisen]

It saved money on the "do not touch" sign.

[Joe in Canada]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

What did the Packard do that it needs to be kept in a cage?

Time  out for not winning?

[Marty Roth]

2 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

What did the Packard do that it needs to be kept in a cage?

 

Penalty Box for beating up on the 'Cuda?

[60FlatTop]

That railing around the Packard should go on the landing for the steps. That would probably pay and code enforcement guy's wages for a month.

 

I had a side door to our 1872 kitchen addition that we no longer used. The old set of steps deteriorated and I just removed them and never used the door. Our village started a fund raising rampage using code enforcement.

Ahh, the code guy was the only one dumb enough to open that door. I replaced the door with a tall window.

 

Better put that fence on top of the bathrooms!

Bernie

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

Spacing on the bars in the fence/panels are to far apart, to meet code. area above bathroom was walled off. Not my house anymore. If you want stories about codes/inspectors I have a bunch of them. Code requires a light outside of that door, were you a code breaker in the Navy?

[padgett]

Air Force 306mop0

 

When I had my back garage built was told if it was a garage, that big it came under commercial code. Garage/workshop was ok though...

[edinmass]

Interesting thread, and I have waited awhile to respond. Currently we are restoring a very historically important car, a one off custom from the “Classic Era”. As it is a well documented car, and we have photos of it the day it was delivered, we are putting it back to the same condition and looks as it was when new. Shortly after the delivery, the owner added side mount covers, lights, and a bunch of other bling....... all within a year of its purchase. So.......what is “correct”? As the owner had several of these cars all purchased new, and all were modified in the same way after delivery. There is no correct answer. And let’s toss in over restoration. When new the car had a chassis painted in red primer. The factory then painted the chassis to the color the customer wanted, and a body was installed. Originally they missed the inside of the frame rails and other hard to get to spots on the frame and chassis. So the car had primer showing all over the place. Would you do a total frame off 100 point restoration and NOt paint the entire frame while it was apart? How about protecting the car for the years to come? Is only adding paint over primer over restoration to get one hundred percent coverage on the car and protect it for years to come? What about keeping it clean and rust free? Hard question to answer. If your putting in years of time and endless dollars would you want the frame to have bare spots on it? Well, since we intend to compete on today’s show circuit, we have elected to put the car back to the condition of the original delivery photo before the owner took possession of it and added all the bling. The car will be showen how the original designer drew it, and how the coach builder delivers it. We decided to go for 100 percent authenticity and will not paint the entire frame while the car is apart. We will restore it and assemble it the way the factory built it, and then paint the chassis assembled, leaving the primer to show underneath. I expect the judges won’t slide under the car far enough to see any of it one way or the other. The point of all of this is we are trying to put it back as closely to new as possible. So, there you have it. Most total restorations  today do not over restore the car, and many of us are trying to be as historicaly accurate as possible. Fifty years from now I am quite sure the then current caretakers will curse us for not painting the thing all apart, covering everything in 100 percent paint coverage. They will be dealing with the after effects. Ed

Edited December 25, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[8E45E]

On ‎2017‎-‎12‎-‎24 at 10:54 PM, edinmass said:

Interesting thread, and I have waited awhile to respond. Currently we are restoring a very historically important car, a one off custom from the “Classic Era”. As it is a well documented car, and we have photos of it the day it was delivered, we are putting it back to the same condition and looks as it was when new. Shortly after the delivery, the owner added side mount covers, lights, and a bunch of other bling....... all within a year of its purchase. So.......what is “correct”? As the owner had several of these cars all purchased new, and all were modified in the same way after delivery. There is no correct answer. And let’s toss in over restoration. When new the car had a chassis painted in red primer. The factory then painted the chassis to the color the customer wanted, and a body was installed. Originally they missed the inside of the frame rails and other hard to get to spots on the frame and chassis. So the car had primer showing all over the place. Would you do a total frame off 100 point restoration and NOt paint the entire frame while it was apart? How about protecting the car for the years to come? Is only adding paint over primer over restoration to get one hundred percent coverage on the car and protect it for years to come? What about keeping it clean and rust free? Hard question to answer. If your putting in years of time and endless dollars would you want the frame to have bare spots on it? Well, since we intend to compete on today’s show circuit, we have elected to put the car back to the condition of the original delivery photo before the owner took possession of it and added all the bling. The car will be showen how the original designer drew it, and how the coach builder delivers it. We decided to go for 100 percent authenticity and will not paint the entire frame while the car is apart. We will restore it and assemble it the way the factory built it, and then paint the chassis assembled, leaving the primer to show underneath. I expect the judges won’t slide under the car far enough to see any of it one way or the other. The point of all of this is we are trying to put it back as closely to new as possible. So, there you have it. Most total restorations  today do not over restore the car, and many of us are trying to be as historicaly accurate as possible. Fifty years from now I am quite sure the then current caretakers will curse us for not painting the thing all apart, covering everything in 100 percent paint coverage. They will be dealing with the after effects. Ed

The same dilemma faces restorers of big trucks where they were delivered "cab &chassis only" to the dealer and a third-party built a deck or box (often a local builder) for the business end of it.   Or in the case of a "chassis only" delivery, the entire body was third-party.  Which way is 'correct'?  Is the 'factory delivered' look, where it shows the bare chassis the correct way? Or with a box or deck mounted on it?  It is open to debate, especially when some big trucks were re-bodied when it changed hands where the second owner required it to suit his own need.

 

Craig

[Paul Dobbin]

On 12/20/2017 at 9:10 PM, Xander Wildeisen said:

The Jaguar that I am building will be finished to the level of a show car. It is a custom build, and modified everywhere. It will also be driven, I will see to that. Alot of show cars are built just for show, buying some of them is a roll of the dice. All of the cars that I put in the shows are 100% road worthy. Not all show cars can say that.

    Xander, you are building my wife's dream car.   We got married with a 57 Porsche Speedster, toured 

    the USA in a 72 240Z, kept her 65 Mustang Conv. 24 years, did Glidden Tours in our 34 Ford V8 Phaeton,          

    enjoyed a  AMX, a 57 Corvette, a Fiero GT and 100 others,  But she always wanted a Jag 150 with an            

    automatic transmission.  Drive it and ignore the purists in their Toyota's.

    My wall hanger was not enough!

Edited December 30, 2017 by Paul Dobbin
Added a picture (see edit history)

[padgett]

Can have a 150s roadster like one I had, all you need is cubic money and willingness to accept a lack of heat, AC, and a mantra of "40 psi at 3,000 rpm".

 

ps you know that is a Mk 2 front end on your wall. Those are easy to find with a T-35.

Edited December 30, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)