Hi beam flickering in ‘63

[rodneybeauchamp]

Coming back from a night cruise found that the high beam lights would flicker after a few minutes. Switching to low beam then back to high gave same result several times, after a few minutes on it would start to flicker.

 

After a few times doing this, I stayed with low beam as I did not want the lights to fail altogether. First time I had used high beam for any length of time. Am running all QH lamps, 60/55 watt high/low and 55 watt high beam.

 

I noticed from the wiring diagram and shop manual there is not a headlamp relay in the circuit. Am I correct on this ? ????

 

If there is not a relay, I should fit one.

 

Has anyone on the forum done this, if so where did you tap in to the wiring? ????

 

Would it be beneficial to put both low and high beam circuits on a relay? ????

 

Thanks Rodney ?????

[Bloo]

I can guess whats going on here. Most American cars of this vintage have a circuit breaker in the headlight switch. I don't know for sure how many amps it is on your Buick, but in Chrysler products it was 15 amps until 1968, and then 20 amps thereafter. This was typical for the period, because the original bulbs for a 4 headlight system were 37.5 watts (x4) on high beam. Later on they raised the wattage of new bulbs.

 

Cars with 4 headlights made before the late 60s often have trouble keeping the high beams on if all 4 bulbs have been changed. 15 amps just isn't enough.

 

A relay system might be in order here.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Bloo (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

If you want to splice a relay (or two; you'll need separate relays for high and low beams) into your harness, the most unobtrusive place is where the wires for the LH lights split out of the harness.  This would allow you to tuck the relays inside the fender right in front of the battery and behind the parking lights.  You can tap the new 12V feed from the post at the horn relay (use 12 ga wire).  Don't forget the fuses.  If you're doing this right, you'd also benefit from upgrading the wiring between the relays and the lights as well (low to 16 ga, high to 12 ga).

 

Among the reasons to do this:

- Your existing lamps will be brighter because there is less voltage drop at the lights.

- You'll save your switch from burning up.

- You can run higher wattage lamps.

 

I'm of the mind that the best way to do this is to replace the low beams with two really good lights, then repurpose the high beams as daytime running lights.  You could do that with a third relay and a tap off the pink coil wire. 

 

And of course, if you get too crazy you might find out that your alternator can't keep up.

[Loren@65GS.com]

I noticed from the wiring diagram and shop manual there is not a headlamp relay in the circuit. Am I correct on this ? ????

 

 You are correct, there is NOT a relay or a circuit breaker in the headlamp circuit. There is a fuse though and I am surprised it has not burned, [blown] out.  You most definitely need to use relays for the load created with the QH lamps. One relay for the low beam and one relay for the high beam circuits.

You also need to upgrade the wire size.  What is most likely happening , is the wires and connections are getting over heated. The overheating is caused by too much amperage draw for the size of the wires.  

Attached is an example of the circuit design needed.

The wire gauge from the junction block to the relays should be 10AWG. It should be protected by installing a 25 amp fuse or a 14AWG fusible link near the junction block. This 10AWG wire is going to have a split in it to power each relay. For added safety, a 15 amp fuse can be inserted into each of the separate leads before the relays. The new wires from the relays to the headlamp bulbs is 12AWG. The ground wire from the headlamp bulbs could use 14AWG or 12AWG.

As KongaMan stated,

- Your existing lamps will be brighter because there is less voltage drop at the lights.

- You'll save your switch from burning up.  Very important, these switches were not designed to handle the kind of load draw the QH system is creating.

- You can run higher wattage lamps.

Depending on the total amount of accessories that are being used, an upgrade in alternator output size may be necessary.  

 

AWG means American Wire Gauge.

 

  Loren 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Loren@65GS.com (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

My '64 dimer switch failed completely on the way home one night around 1988. How old is your dimmer switch?

Bernie

[1965rivgs]

3 hours ago, Loren@65GS.com said:

I noticed from the wiring diagram and shop manual there is not a headlamp relay in the circuit. Am I correct on this ? ????

 

 You are correct, there is NOT a relay or a circuit breaker in the headlamp circuit. There is a fuse though and I am surprised it has not burned, [blown] out.  You most definitely need to use relays for the load created with the QH lamps. One relay for the low beam and one relay for the high beam circuits.

You also need to upgrade the wire size.  What is most likely happening , is the wires and connections are getting over heated. The overheating is caused by too much amperage draw for the size of the wires.  

Attached is an example of the circuit design needed.

The wire gauge from the junction block to the relays should be 10AWG. It should be protected by installing a 25 amp fuse or a 14AWG fusible link near the junction block. This 10AWG wire is going to have a split in it to power each relay. For added safety, a 15 amp fuse can be inserted into each of the separate leads before the relays. The new wires from the relays to the headlamp bulbs is 12AWG. The ground wire from the headlamp bulbs could use 14AWG or 12AWG.

As KongaMan stated,

- Your existing lamps will be brighter because there is less voltage drop at the lights.

- You'll save your switch from burning up.  Very important, these switches were not designed to handle the kind of load draw the QH system is creating.

- You can run higher wattage lamps.

Depending on the total amount of accessories that are being used, an upgrade in alternator output size may be necessary.  

 

AWG means American Wire Gauge.

 

  Loren 

 

 

There is no fuse for the voltage feed to the headlight switch. The headlight switch has an auto reset circuit breaker in it. The fuses in the circuit above are add ons to protect the relay side of the circuit.

  Tom

[Loren@65GS.com]

Thank you Tom,  the wiring diagram in the FSM is such small print, I missed the circuit breaker as being in the switch.

 

  Loren

[RivNut]

Many moons ago, a bunch of buddies and I used to take off with our canoes after work on Fridays.  It was a long haul to the rivers we floated and on the hills and curves of the Ozark roadways, we needed all the light we could get.  I thought I'd be smart and wire a set of driving lights into the high beam circuit on my van.  When it got dark and I turned on the headlights, the high beams would just flicker, worse than no high beams at all.  Made the entire trip that weekend on just the low beams. Scary, dude.   Went back home and created a new circuit with a relay in it for the driving lights.  Lesson learned about over taxing a circuit.

[SwedeDownUnderR63]

I went even further and used 2 relays for each side of the car which probably is overkill but I am used to work with highly available computer solutions...

I also converted to H1/H4 lamps at the same time. (NARVA have kits for the Australian market for this conversion). My 1963 had already a modern alternator which I think would be needed.

[Bloo]

That's really the right way to do it. With 4 relays the front end cannot go completely dark (assuming the fusing was well thought out).

[rodneybeauchamp]

2 hours ago, SwedeDownUnderR63 said:

I went even further and used 2 relays for each side of the car which probably is overkill but I am used to work with highly available computer solutions...

I also converted to H1/H4 lamps at the same time. (NARVA have kits for the Australian market for this conversion). My 1963 had already a modern alternator which I think would be needed.

Hi Jan, was thinking it through also and was considering using 3 relays, one for low and two for high beams (as their would be 4 lamps on high)

 

. I picked up this afternoon, two 30amp relays with mounting blocks. These are the normally closed 5 pin versions that will have two outputs per relay. Thinking these would be fine for these lamps, but interested in your solution also.

 

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

That's really the right way to do it. With 4 relays the front end cannot go completely dark (assuming the fusing was well thought out).

 

So what you are saying is that if one relay fails, I will still have lights on the other three headlamps. Heck, it’s only money, so I might pick up two more.

[KongaMan]

Even if you only use two relays, you won't lose all your lights unless they both go.  That seems unlikely.  But if you're worried about a relay failing, carry a spare. 

 

If you really want to get carried away, use 6 relays: one each of the two low beams and one for each of the four high beams.

[Bloo]

Well, you have to think about how you lay it out. There are several ways. If you have each "pair" of high beams on a relay, and something fails, you would still have the other two. If you have the low beams on a relay, and something fails, you lose it all (but you can get light back by hitting the high beam switch). If you have a fourth relay you can split the low beams so that cant happen.

 

If you split the high beams up by side (1 relay switches 2 high beams on the same side) you could probably get by with only 2 fuses, one per side of the car. In that scenario, with a blown fuse, one side goes dark on both low and high. With a bad relay you lose either high or low on one side.

 

On the other hand, you could just fuse every relay separately. Either way you keep some light on the front of the car with a failure.

 

The only thing that can still screw you up and turn off the whole front of the car is if the circuit breaker in the light switch (the original problem) kicks out. With only the current draw of the relay coils it wont happen.

 

One thing though, make sure your dimmer switch is good. Those have a nasty habit of corroding up and leaking current to the floor they are bolted to. THAT could kick out the circuit breaker.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Bloo (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

OTOH, if you only use the two low beams as headlights and repurpose the high beams as DRLs, you'll have a completely separate backup circuit.

[petelempert]

Coming in late on this post, but I'd replace the dimmer switch before doing anything. About a year ago, the switch went out on a 72 Cutlass I have and every light on the entire car was blinking at different intervals like a pinball machine. PRL

 

[RivNut]

4 hours ago, KongaMan said:

OTOH, if you only use the two low beams as headlights and repurpose the high beams as DRLs, you'll have a completely separate backup circuit.

Chip,

 

Can you illustrate this circuit for me?  Thanks, Ed

[SwedeDownUnderR63]

There are more ways than one to skin a cat. Interesting to see the variations.

The relays that I used came with a fuse on top which I thought was handy.

I also have a spare dimmer in the car as I did run into a faulty one in the 80’s...

[KongaMan]

This is obviously a rough sketch, but it's what I had on hand.  If I get a minute I'll clean it up and label it better.

 

 

The DRLs come on when the key is turned to run (IGN).  They shut off when the lights are on (either high or low beam).  The squares are relays (the one on the far right was for the parking lights, but I blew that off).  The triangles are Schottke diodes, so that a single relay can be triggered by two discreet sources.

[rodneybeauchamp]

I might put a torch in the ? ????

 

 

[rodneybeauchamp]

Many thanks for all input. Job done.

 

Problem was a result of upgrading standand lighting to 60/55 H4 QH inserts on Hi/Lo and 55W Haleogen on Hi. This upgrade caused the headlamp circuit breaker to activate as circuit was now overloaded. According to shop manual original headlights were 37.5W/50W Hi/Lo and 37.5 on Hi.

 

Ended up using three seperate relays, one for Lo beam, one each for LH and RH Hi beam.

All relays had a double 87 output pin that allowed a seperate wire to run to each filament on each lamp. (2 filaments for Lo and 4 for Hi)

This was extremely beneficial when soldering terminals to the 5mm heavy feed wires.

 

Ran seperate 5mm power feeds (3) to each relay from the terminal stud on the LH inner fender. They are all seperately fused with inline holders. Ground to each relay was same size 5mm wire.

 

Again used same size wire from relay outputs to each lamp to minimise voltage drop and also upgraded original thin ground wires with same heavier size wire. Used original colours of orange, grey and black to avoid confusion. ?

 

After removing the old orange and grey wires from the main wiring loom that goes across the radiator support panel made up a new seperate harness with the new wires, two grey and two orange and linked this to the two new black ground harness. Picture shows the new harness with upgraded grounds. Original grey and orange wires were cut near the battery and became the triggers to activate each relay.

 

All three relays mounted in block holders that link together to form a neat module that was attached to the inner fender to the left of the battery. You will see from the picture they are sort of out of the way but still accessible if needed.

 

When testing relays one by one, found that the Lo beam turns off when Hi beam is selected and after some research found this may be correct for a H4 globe.

 

And after a test drive, will need to aim them correctly, cos I can now see!

 

 

 

[Bloo]

That is correct, H4 just burns one filament or the other, not both (just like sealed beams).

 

Glad you got it sorted out!

 

Where did you get those relay sockets?

Edited December 29, 2017 by Bloo (see edit history)

[rodneybeauchamp]

11 hours ago, Bloo said:

That is correct, H4 just burns one filament or the other, not both (just like sealed beams).

 

Glad you got it sorted out!

 

Where did you get those relay sockets?

 

Hi Bloo,

thanks for confirmation about the H4 filaments, stops the cogs churning!

 

The relay bases were Narva 68084BL,  neat and inexpensive and came from my local Bursons Auto Parts (Australia) but should be available most parts places.

 

They fit all standard relays as I have a Bosch fitted in one for my DRL. They come with the correct female brass terminals that lock in to the base. The base has individual compartments for each terminal to prevent shorting as well as a mounting tab. 

Rodney ?

 

BTW was most impressed with the 3M Temflex 1610 electrical tape used to tape up the wiring harnesses, it really sticks and is easy to use. I had been using a Nitto before and found it unsatisfactory as it did not want to stay stuck at the ends!

 

just my two bobs worth! (Gee, it sounds like “ and now a word from our sponsors”) ????