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Pinging when floored


rodneybeauchamp

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Hi all,

noticed recently that my ‘63 seems to be pinging when I accelerate more than usual. I am fairly light footed but this concerns me. There is a steepish hill that I sometimes use when coming home, and it seems to ping going up the grade under acceleration.

 

Am running a premium grade unleaded 98 octane, timing and dwell is correct, New cap, rotor and vacuum advance unit fitted. When distributor was out I cleaned and lubricated all moving parts, removed all burrs from weights etc, and it all seemed to move freely.

 

Any clues as to what to look for, whether a possible vacuum leak at brake reservoir or something I am missing.

 

many thanks ??????

 

 

 

 

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                     It may be that the outer ring on the balancer has moved and the timing is really a little more advanced than your timing light indicates.

At any rate, pinging will eventually damage the pistons, so you need to back off on the timing just a little and see if you can find a spot where it runs good and doesn't ping. another possibility is a large carbon buildup on top of the pistons. Pouring Seafoam down the throat of the carb will break that up if that is what

is going on.

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What is your initial advance set at?

Another possibility is you have too much total timing advance with both mechanical and vacuum. Especially if pinging is most noticeable when first put under load. Can also depend if vacuum source to module is ported or manifold. I have noticed aftermarket vacuum advance modules allow more advance than the original does. Original stock distributors and vacuum advance modules (at least on the 66 425) had a small hard rubber bushing on the shaft of both mechanical and vacuum mechanism which limited travel a small amount therefore limiting total advance when fully in. These bushings deteriorate and fall off over the years. With both bushings gone it adds a little more stroke on the mechanical and more stroke on vacuum and can make a slight problem worse.

 

Regardless its a good idea to check and see what your total advance is. If nothing else just for a point of reference. Also, who knows if the original distributor has been changed by a previous owner. I believe the 63s were designed  for 12 degrees initial, but 64 - 66 was 2.5 with exception of the dual quad engines which was back to 12. A "dial back" timing light can be used to determine total advance for both mechanical and vacuum, then compare to shop manual specs.

 

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                   I wonder where you are buying 98 octane fuel? Here in Texas the highest available is 93 octane and my car runs fine on it without pinging.

I know that when I have been to Missouri they have Sunoco stations that sell high octane fuel.....I wish we had those down here.

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8 hours ago, rodneybeauchamp said:

Am running a premium grade unleaded 98 octane

 

2 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

                   I wonder where you are buying 98 octane fuel?

 

1 hour ago, msdminc said:

Winston, Rodney is from Australia.  When I was there in May of this year, 95 Octane was the low grade.  I saw 98 all over the place and even in the 100's at some places.

In North America the octane listed on the pump is the numerical average of the research octane number (RON) and motor octane number (MON), in most of the rest of the world the number on the pump is the RON which is higher than the MON. Thus the same gasoline that would have a posted octane of 87 in the US will have a higher posted number elsewhere in the world. How much higher depends on the exact fuel as the difference between the RON and MON can vary quite a bit.

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                       I had forgotten about Rodney being in Australia. That explains the pinging ! His carburetor is upside down, causing the

carburetor to lean out and thus the ping. The obvious solution is to somehow flip the carburetor over and mount it to the manifold upside down.

this will take quite a bit of fabrication but it should be doable.

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Thanks guys,

 

yes after I posted the topic, I did remember about the bush limiting total advance. I can’t remember seeing anything that resembled that. Would someone have a photo to show what it looks like and where it fits. ??????

 

FYI I replaced the timing gears and chain almost two years ago and it fired up fine and has ran fine.

 

Am  tempted to refit my old vacuum advance and see what that does.

 

At same time would like to fit the limit bush if I can work out from a photo. ???????

 

And because we have lots of Rivieras down under now (almost as many as you guys) we need high grade fuels. 

1 hour ago, Seafoam65 said:

                       I had forgotten about Rodney being in Australia. That explains the pinging ! His carburetor is upside down, causing the

carburetor to lean out and thus the ping. The obvious solution is to somehow flip the carburetor over and mount it to the manifold upside down.

this will take quite a bit of fabrication but it should be doable.

 

Winston, I tried that but all the high grade fuel ran out all over the engine, not good. I think it has something to do with the distance from the moon and the tides, but not 100% on that.

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Here are pics Rodney. Note how short the slot is on the factory original vacuum module. Keep in mind for each degree of advance inside the distributor that equates to 2 degrees measuring at the crank. With both mechanical and vacuum you want around 32-36 degrees max advance with the vacuum module providing around 10-12 degrees and mechanical the balance 22-24. Even if none of this has anything to do with your problem, for best performance its a good idea to know how your advance is working and what rpm the mechanical is all in and at what level of engine vacuum the module is fully  pulled in.

Distributor3a.jpg

Dist Shaft Limit Bushing.jpg

Edited by JZRIV (see edit history)
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The MOST common is the rubber bushing falls off from dry rot & causes the mechanical timing to get too far advanced. You won't even know it happened because the bits fall inside the distributor under the advance plate. IF you don't know where to look you'll NEVER know it fell off.  I have BOTH of those rubber bushings in stock as I rebuild & re-curve distributors.

 

 

Tom T.

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5 hours ago, JZRIV said:

Here are pics Rodney. Note how short the slot is on the factory original vacuum module. Keep in mind for each degree of advance inside the distributor that equates to 2 degrees measuring at the crank. With both mechanical and vacuum you want around 32-36 degrees max advance with the vacuum module providing around 10-12 degrees and mechanical the balance 22-24. Even if none of this has anything to do with your problem, for best performance its a good idea to know how your advance is working and what rpm the mechanical is all in and at what level of engine vacuum the module is fully  pulled in.

 

 

 

Jason, you da man! I had no idea where to look and you give it all in pictures. That’s truely informative. I’m sure the new Wells unit had nothing like that. My old one held vacuum so it may return.

1 hour ago, telriv said:

The MOST common is the rubber bushing falls off from dry rot & causes the mechanical timing to get too far advanced. You won't even know it happened because the bits fall inside the distributor under the advance plate. IF you don't know where to look you'll NEVER know it fell off.  I have BOTH of those rubber bushings in stock as I rebuild & re-curve distributors.

 

 

Tom T.

And Tom, many thanks for that. I may need to get one from you, if happy to post out.

 

1 hour ago, KongaMan said:

It's not clear why there's a bushing instead of just making the slots shorter...

 

It also seems that a short piece of tubing might make a good replacement for the bushings.

 

Kongaman, you may be right, however if Tom does have the correct piece, it would be a better fix. And perhaps some silicone would help hold it in place. Though according to Winston, because we are up the other way, it shouldn’t fall down at all.

 

Many thanks to all for help on this ???????

Rodney

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1 hour ago, telriv said:

The MOST common is the rubber bushing falls off from dry rot & causes the mechanical timing to get too far advanced. You won't even know it happened because the bits fall inside the distributor under the advance plate. IF you don't know where to look you'll NEVER know it fell off.  I have BOTH of those rubber bushings in stock as I rebuild & re-curve distributors.

 

 

Tom T.

 

So Tom, are there TWO rubber bushings to replace? Can you send me an email and I will get them both.

cheers

Rodney

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Guys, please look in your factory shop manual for YOUR YEAR car/engine.  The '63 is setup differently from the '64-'66.  Buick provides a graph of advance vs RPM (can be converted to road speed).

 

I have a set-back timing light that allows you to map the degrees of mechanical advance at several different RPMs to reproduce the curve in the shop manual.  The advance amount per increase in RPM is controlled by the springs on the centrifugal advance.  The bushing controls the maximum advance.

 

'63 should use ported vacuum.

 

I have carbon build up in my heads, so I get higher than stock compression.  With that, I have to reduce the initial advance several degrees, or else I ping in summer.

 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, JZRIV said:

Here are pics Rodney. Note how short the slot is on the factory original vacuum module. Keep in mind for each degree of advance inside the distributor that equates to 2 degrees measuring at the crank. With both mechanical and vacuum you want around 32-36 degrees max advance with the vacuum module providing around 10-12 degrees and mechanical the balance 22-24. Even if none of this has anything to do with your problem, for best performance its a good idea to know how your advance is working and what rpm the mechanical is all in and at what level of engine vacuum the module is fully  pulled in.

Distributor3a.jpg

Dist Shaft Limit Bushing.jpg

Great pics Jason,

  Tom

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17 hours ago, rodneybeauchamp said:

Kongaman, you may be right, however if Tom does have the correct piece, it would be a better fix.

It might be the same fix. ;) 

 

Get the OD of the rods, find some tubing with a slightly smaller ID (vacuum line, small engine fuel line, etc.), snip off a piece. and Bob's yer uncle.  Your local jobber might even give you a more-than-long-enough piece for free.  No need to overthink this...

 

In the bigger picture, you might (as Jim suggests) check the mechanical and vacuum advance before doing anything.  It could be that you'd benefit from changing your distributor settings (i.e. maybe your springs are weak).  If that's the case , a lot of distributor kits include the bushing.

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On 12/6/2017 at 5:38 AM, rodneybeauchamp said:

Hi all,

noticed recently that my ‘63 seems to be pinging when I accelerate more than usual. I am fairly light footed but this concerns me. There is a steepish hill that I sometimes use when coming home, and it seems to ping going up the grade under acceleration.

 

Am running a premium grade unleaded 98 octane, timing and dwell is correct, New cap, rotor and vacuum advance unit fitted. When distributor was out I cleaned and lubricated all moving parts, removed all burrs from weights etc, and it all seemed to move freely.

 

Any clues as to what to look for, whether a possible vacuum leak at brake reservoir or something I am missing.

 

many thanks ??????

 

 

 

 

Rodney, perchance your gasoline contains 10% ethanol ? In the US we contaminate our gasoline with ethanol in efforts to keep from poisoning ourselves from pollution. Once I changed to non ethanol gasoline the pinging went away. 

Red Riviera Bob

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8 hours ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Rodney, perchance your gasoline contains 10% ethanol ? In the US we contaminate our gasoline with ethanol in efforts to keep from poisoning ourselves from pollution. Once I changed to non ethanol gasoline the pinging went away. 

Red Riviera Bob

 

Hi Bob, we have Ethanol fuels but it is labelled as such ..... and I avoid them.

2 hours ago, telriv said:

The rubber bushings are a PREDETERMINED size. Then they "kinda" thin themselves out as they are installed. A piece of vacuum hose is normally too thick. The distributor kits have a metal bushing & you CAN'T get it on the vacuum advance arm.

 

And I agree with Tom, correct size bushings are worth the wait. Why do it twice. 

 

BTW Tom, I have sent my address details to you in a PM, can you let me know they came through, otherwise I can send again,

thanks

Rodney

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All of you octane junkies need to read this.  You'll be surprised.  I've just copied and pasted this.

 

In terms of its octane rating, ethanol has a rating of 113. As mentioned above, fuels with a higher octane rating reduce engine knocking and perform better. Also, almost all gasoline in the US contains 10 percent ethanol. When you mix 10 percent 113 octane ethanol with 85 octane gasoline it increases the octane two points to the normal 87 octane most consumers use. So the higher the ethanol content, the higher the octane. The octane rating for E15 (15% ethanol) is 88 octane and E85 (85% ethanol) is 108 octane.

 

In conclusion, it's not the ethanol that causes your car to ping.  If your car is pinging on 87 octane ethanol, it will ping on 87 octane non-ethanol.  Non-ethanol gas will improve your gas mileage though, and it won't "age" as it sits in your tank over the winter.  Google 'E85 at the racetrack' and see what's written about ethanol as a race fuel.

 

 

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I must have been about 13 or 14 years old when I read an article about chauffeurs. It told about a test of setting a full glass of water on the dash and being able to drive through traffic with a series of starts, stops, and maneuvers without spilling. That stuck with me all my life and I still drive very smoothly and deliberately, but fast. I have been reading this and thinking about how few times I have ever heard a ping. Now that tachs are on most vehicles it is a rare event to see mine nudging 3800 RPM. When I do I feel like I am being a real cowboy.

 

Just one opinion. I put the whatever regular Mobil in my stuff.

 

Reminds me of my Wife's first ride in a Rolls-Royce. She is usually riding shotgun with me, so we went out to dinner with a friend in his Silver Shadow. He's a city kid, a little froggy on the gas and the brake. We got home and I asked her how she liked his car. She told me it didn't seem as smooth as my Buicks. I think I heard it ping once or twice, too.

 

A few weeks ago Scott Heise, a long time Buick guy, and I went out for lunch and drove through the old Medina sandstone quarries. I took the '60 Electra from a stop to 60, Dynafow style. I didn't hear a ping, but Scott giggled.

Bernie

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5 hours ago, RivNut said:

All of you octane junkies need to read this.  You'll be surprised.  I've just copied and pasted this.

 

In terms of its octane rating, ethanol has a rating of 113. As mentioned above, fuels with a higher octane rating reduce engine knocking and perform better. Also, almost all gasoline in the US contains 10 percent ethanol. When you mix 10 percent 113 octane ethanol with 85 octane gasoline it increases the octane two points to the normal 87 octane most consumers use. So the higher the ethanol content, the higher the octane. The octane rating for E15 (15% ethanol) is 88 octane and E85 (85% ethanol) is 108 octane.

 

In conclusion, it's not the ethanol that causes your car to ping.  If your car is pinging on 87 octane ethanol, it will ping on 87 octane non-ethanol.  Non-ethanol gas will improve your gas mileage though, and it won't "age" as it sits in your tank over the winter.  Google 'E85 at the racetrack' and see what's written about ethanol as a race fuel.

 

 

Hee hee

 

Corn rots - dinosaurs don't - 

 

Muscle cars and I prefer red meat

 

WHEN are you going to write your book, Bernie???

 

There are editors for hire....

 

 

Edited by PWB (see edit history)
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12 hours ago, RivNut said:

All of you octane junkies need to read this.  You'll be surprised.  I've just copied and pasted this.

 

In terms of its octane rating, ethanol has a rating of 113. As mentioned above, fuels with a higher octane rating reduce engine knocking and perform better. Also, almost all gasoline in the US contains 10 percent ethanol. When you mix 10 percent 113 octane ethanol with 85 octane gasoline it increases the octane two points to the normal 87 octane most consumers use. So the higher the ethanol content, the higher the octane. The octane rating for E15 (15% ethanol) is 88 octane and E85 (85% ethanol) is 108 octane.

 

In conclusion, it's not the ethanol that causes your car to ping.  If your car is pinging on 87 octane ethanol, it will ping on 87 octane non-ethanol.  Non-ethanol gas will improve your gas mileage though, and it won't "age" as it sits in your tank over the winter.  Google 'E85 at the racetrack' and see what's written about ethanol as a race fuel.

 

 

This is consistent with my experience. After the lead phase-out but before the common addition of ethanol I had serious spark knock issues in all the high compression `60`s monsters I owned and serviced when using "regular" grade fuel. The ethanol seemed to help this issue...with other disadvantages as Ed notes.

   Tom Mooney

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On 12/10/2017 at 4:10 PM, rodneybeauchamp said:

 

Hi Bob, we have Ethanol fuels but it is labelled as such ..... and I avoid them.

 

And I agree with Tom, correct size bushings are worth the wait. Why do it twice. 

 

BTW Tom, I have sent my address details to you in a PM, can you let me know they came through, otherwise I can send again,

thanks

Rodney

Rodney, smart man. The ethanol stuff is really hard on our small engine equipment. You are treating your Riviera right by using non ethanol gasoline.

Red Riviera Bob

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I treat the factory timing number as a guide. Here in CA, we've got a lot of stuff in our gas, and I'm about 2500ft above sea level. I usually get close to factory spec, then adjust to suit. On my mustang, I'd have to readjust for winter or summer blends too.

 

I'd back the distributor up a little bit, and the ping should go away.

 

Great info about those bushings, I didn't know that.

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Thanks Steve,

 

my first action will be to install the bushes when they arrive, recheck dwell and timing ?

second action might be to install original factory vacuum advance unit ?

third action might be to reduce initial timing advance. ?

 

 

hoping first action will resolve it otherwise

fourth action may be to accelerate with left foot only??

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  • 4 weeks later...

OK, here is what I found ( or didn’t find)

 

No bush on the mechanical advance or the vacuum advance. ( probably because it is new) at all!

 

Gave both vacuum advance units the “down under suckerarma test” ( patented in Australia) and the original unit takes much more vacuum to move as compared to the Wells replacement. It still has the 63 markings of an original so it is going back, even if not so shiny.

 

Put a vernier over some critical measurements and they are different, but only a distributor machine would provide accuracy to that.

 

Toms bushes arrived today so in they go, and will post results soon!

???

 

9D81FE55-63A3-43E9-83ED-DEB847BD43EE.jpeg

2960E7BB-0AE7-4199-B1C6-288500C1E664.jpeg

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There are two things I would look into for the pre-ignition knock, one, the springs on the centrifugal advance system ( If the springs are weak it can advance the timing) and if there is vacuum present at the vacuum advance.  The vac. hose to the advance is controlled. It gets its feed  from the carb "above" the throttle plates. A constant feed of vac. to the advance will keep the timing advanced. The only other thing that comes to mind is that the gas station where you get your gas is cheating on the blend. At one time I worked for a guy who owned a Sonoco Station and he at night would pump 190 into the prem. (260) tank. 

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Here is a link to a really good article on octane:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

 

While it gets fairly technical in some areas, about midway down the article is a very useful chart showing MON, RON, and AKI for a number of different fuels including various gasolines. This chart suggests that 98 octane in Australia/New Zealand would be 93~94 octane in the USA.

 

Here is another article which I did hoping to make the technical more user-friendly.

 

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Octane.htm

 

Like others have suggested, I would vote for timing issues.

 

Jon.

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I believe Rodney has a '63. It has ported vacuum which has the port ABOVE the throttle plates & 12* initial timing at a slow idle. Installing the original vacuum advance may be one of the issues. Just clean it up a little Rodney & spray some silver paint on it to make it look better. Vacuum advance '64-'66 had FULL manifold vacuum & initial timing was 2 1/2* except for the 2x4 cars.

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8 hours ago, telriv said:

I believe Rodney has a '63. It has ported vacuum which has the port ABOVE the throttle plates & 12* initial timing at a slow idle. Installing the original vacuum advance may be one of the issues. Just clean it up a little Rodney & spray some silver paint on it to make it look better. Vacuum advance '64-'66 had FULL manifold vacuum & initial timing was 2 1/2* except for the 2x4 cars.

 

Yes it is a 63 and the original vacuum unit ( including the new bush) is going back in. Silver paint might be worth a go too!

keep you informed!

Rodney

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Both distributor bushes now installed. One on centrifugal advance was a cinch, a very neat fit and certainly reduces movement.

 

Vacuum advance was a mystery as when installed it rubs on each side of the mounting bracket. It still operates but wondering if this will inhibit the movement of the rod. It may wear in over time but not certain it should be like this. ????

 

Have road tested it out and it seems to have improved the situation when I gave it heavy throttle on a steep hill. Hasn’t gone away fully but improved. I may remove the bush from the advance and recheck.

 

Can anyone one shed some light on the codes that are now visible M 63 6 since a clean up and silver paint? And Tom appreciate the note about the solvent, I used a wire wheel and some methylated spirit on a rag to remove any oils.

 

 

80A977F6-06C9-459E-AE8A-338A4D3273B7.jpeg

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Don't know about the "M" but the 63-6 = the 6th. month of 1963 I believe. So it was made on June 6th. 1963. What's the number on the tag warped around the distributor?? What's the build date of your car??? As the advance number would indicate your car was a late built '63. Am I correct??? The rubber bush will NOT harm anything the way it is. Your could try backing up the timing 2-3 degrees & see if this helps. Should make little or no noticeable diff. in performance or fuel economy. I believe you stated you were using 98 octane fuel. Correct???

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???? WOW WHAT A DIFFERENCE!

 

Removed the bush from the original vacuum advance unit as when fitted it rubbed on the mounting bracket, which would slow its return. When given some throttle I noticed with the timing light connected  that the timing was slow to return to idle setting. 

 

So re-installed original vacuum advance ( after a freshen up with silver paint) re-set timing at 12degrees BTDC @ 400RPM with advance disconnected and plugged. Dwell was 30 degrees, never changed as points were not disturbed.

 

Did a cruise down to the city with a good stretch of country roads at speed, some freeway and city driving. Not only did it look good but it is the best it has ever run, big performance increase on steep hills and acceleration. Some very minor pinging at WOT but not enough to concern me as I don’t drive it there. This may be due to weak springs on mechanical advance.

 

Two steep hills were taken with ease, plenty of power (almost scary with such light steering) so more than happy.

 

Many thanks to Tom, Jon and all the others for your input. ?????

 

 

 

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