Steve1927Peerless

Best Oil & Lubricants for 1920's Cars

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I am new to your forum as our family has come into one 1927 Peerless and may have more 1920's cars coming. I need to find out what others are doing for oils and lubricants. I have read up on a few things:

 

Oil - The manuals of the time listed the recommended oils as heavy/light depending on season. Many have recommended a 30W, 10w30 or 15w40. The concern I have is the detergent factor. I have seen the "Antique" car oil for sale with no detergent. There is the general detergent oils at our local parts house. What are others doing? Feel free to share other forum that may have previously discussed.

 

Lubricants - The manual indicates 600w for different locations. What does that translate to for today's lubricants and is there a suggestion.  

 

Grease - Standard lithium? I need to get a Alemite greaase fitting also. 

 

Any recommended links to discussion or parts house is greatly appreciated also as I may have a Pierce-Arrow or Willys-Knight to work on soon. 

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On 11/19/2017 at 6:39 AM, Steve1927Peerless said:

I am new to your forum as our family has come into one 1927 Peerless and may have more 1920's cars coming. I need to find out what others are doing for oils and lubricants. I have read up on a few things:

 

Oil - The manuals of the time listed the recommended oils as heavy/light depending on season. Many have recommended a 30W, 10w30 or 15w40. The concern I have is the detergent factor. I have seen the "Antique" car oil for sale with no detergent. There is the general detergent oils at our local parts house. What are others doing? Feel free to share other forum that may have previously discussed.

 

Lubricants - The manual indicates 600w for different locations. What does that translate to for today's lubricants and is there a suggestion.  

 

Grease - Standard lithium? I need to get a Alemite greaase fitting also. 

 

Any recommended links to discussion or parts house is greatly appreciated also as I may have a Pierce-Arrow or Willys-Knight to work on soon. 

  • Any modern oil is better than those of the old days.  However, IMO, if your engine has not been rebuilt & has no oil filter, use "non-detergent" oil.  Older engines without oil filters had large oil pans to help settle out solids (sludge). The "detergents" (oil additives to be more correct) are designed to suspend particles for removal by a filter. 
  • 600w or SAE 250 WT gear lubes are available from Antique Car Catalogs online and should be used in crash-box transmissions and rear ends.
  • General purpose grease can be used for chassis components, and red high temp. grease for wheel bearings.
  • Alemite adapters are also available for modern grease guns.  The one I use one on my pneumatic grease gun saves lots of time and effort.
Edited by Mark Shaw (see edit history)
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If you do an oils or lubricants search you will find this is probably the most discussed and argued about topic on the forum.

 

That said, the only thing I would disagree with Mark on is the dispersant (aka detergent) oils used today will not dissolve the accumulated sludge, it will only suspend the new contaminants (mostly carbon).

 

Besides using modern oils, the best thing you can do is to drop the oil pan and clean the sludge accumulations formed from using the old oils without the dispersant. Once you do that, use today's oils and do regular changes you will not get new sludge deposits.

 

As far as engine oil weight, it depends on the temperatures you'll be driving in, splash lube vs full pressure, engine/oil pump wear, etc. I would suggest finding a weight that gives you a normal pressure reading for a typical drive.

 

Synthetics are best but I run mineral oil because without a filter, I like to do frequent changes and don't want to waste the money. Today's mineral oils are far, far superior to stuff back in the 20s.

 

And save your money on all the snake oil additives on the market.

Scott

 

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I agree with Stude Light.  For me, it's imperative to drop the pan of a newly acquired vehicle and do the clean out as a baseline or preventative unless you know the car well or that it's been run at least semi-frequently in recent years.  And if you can take some extra time, it's good to ensure that the crankshaft oil passages are clear.

 

Here's what a steady diet of non-detergent oil plus infrequent use will do:  the attached photos show "crank turds" from crankshaft oil passages on a friend's 1919 Pierce Series 31, nominally 38 hp.

crank turd 1.jpeg

crank turd 2.jpeg

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I asked the same questions you did about the oils . In the motor of my 1931 Reo Royale 8 cylinder I used SAE 30 non detergent oil . It was suggested I add some Lucas ENGINE BREAK-IN OIL ADDITIVE TB ZINC-PLUS . In the differential and gear box I bought a product from the Antique Ford dealers especially designed for old transmissions . 
 
Edited by Mark Gregory (see edit history)

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I agree with Stude Light and Grimy.

 

Just my opinion here.  

 

When I buy an antique car the first thing I do is drop the pan and remove the valve and pushrod cover, if it has one, to clean all the old gunk out.  

 

I prefer modern synthetic racing oil and use it in both my 1933 Chevrolet and 1962 TR4.  

 

I use racing oil (specifically Valvoline) since it has a higher level of zinc than normal modern oil, with no VooDoo chemistry to mix ZDDP.  From everything I have read, zinc was not found in early engine oil and at a reduced level in most modern oil after it it was found to kill catalytic converters.  It is supposed to reduce wear, especially with flat tappets.  Have also heard Brad Penn is a good oil for early cars, but I never tried it.

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It is Luddite behaviour to consider non-additive (so called non-detergent) oil. It is ignoring, at best and denigrating, at worst, the science.

 

It was recognised early on that there were three problems with oils in use at the time, with five significant symptoms (source: Service Station and Motor Mechanics Manual, George George A.M.I.A.E., M.S.A.E., M.I.A.M., F.I.C., 1940, p. 87). The problems were exercising the minds of motor lubricant makers, I expect under pressure from auto makers:
1. Corrosion by the organic acid compounds produced by the combustion of the fuel, upon the upper part of the cylinder walls and upon the piston rings.
2. Sludge formation in the oil itself.
3. Rate of viscosity reduction with temperature.
4. Extreme pressure lubricants needed for gearboxes and differentials.
5. Corrosion of the new alloys being used for bearing metal.

 

We call oil additive packages "detergents" so I will continue with that loose terminology. These detergents include anti-oxidants to retard corrosion (see symptoms 1 and 5). They prevent the oil turning to sludge (symptom 2). And the additive packages provide for a flattening of the viscosity-temperature curve, hence multi-grade oils (symptom number 3). The base oil is probably still S.A.E. 30, but the additives make it behave like the numbers in the multi-grade designation: easier to pump at cold startup (e.g. 5W or 10W), leading to far less wear, and holding their viscosity (the second part after the hyphen) at operating temperature. A good treatise on viscosity is Richard Widman's paper at http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html.

 

Note symptom number 2. Remember that back in the day, engines were full of SLUDGE, which was a consequence of the oil, not a design feature. In addition, when the non-additive oil flow slowed or stopped, the particles in the oil were deposited there, which is EVERYWHERE inside the engine. Hence the muck found in the crankshaft oil ways and shown by Grimy above. The oil ways will be blocked eventually so there won't be much lubrication. Why do you think engines wore out at such low mileages compared to today's engines? As well, why did they change oil at such low mileages (e.g. 1500 summer miles, 500 winter miles) - it was well on the way to being sludge, which doesn't lubricate very well and the pH was dropping to dangerous levels and corrosion was accelerating.

 

With "detergent" oil, the particles that are entrained are very very small - clay sized. They are basically combustion products (esp. carbon), which is why detergent oil goes black and the inside of the engine doesn't get this stuff deposited all over it.

 

Mark Shaw's first bullet is the opposite of what happens. "Non-detergent" oil deposits the muck everywhere when the engine is turned off. Very little of it is picked up again. Modern oil with additives does NOT deposit the muck and it comes out during an oil change. The filter allows for longer times between changes.

 

Stude Light gave good advice. ANY synthetic oil is better than ALL mineral oils, meaning there will be least wear with synthetic oil.

 

Remember that most wear occurs on cold starts when the oil circulation is poor. Thicker oils lead to more wear at startup. So you want an oil that behaves as a low viscosity oil when cold but like a higher viscosity oil at operating temperature. The multigrade oil designations tell you about this, e.g. a 5W-30 behaves as an SAE 5 oil when cold (the W can be thought of as "Winter") and an SAE 30 oil when at operating temperature. Your car's oil pressure gauge will show this too: the pressures cold and hot will be much closer together than if you use a single grade oil (or, heaven forfend, a "non-detergent" oil).

 

I have a 1930 Dodge Brothers 8. I am running a 5W-30 oil in it. I change it at 1000 mile intervals at the moment. I will increase that interval when I finish working on the engine.

 

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We actually had a seminar at our facility just yesterday with a chemist from one of the oil companies, PennRite (formerly Brad Penn, who, by the way, do the private label oils for at least two of the "old car" oils on the market today). They formulate oils specifically for old cars as well as many other applications. It was technical, not sales, and there was a lengthy Q&A session afterwords. The #1 question was about zinc (important for muscle cars with high-lift cams and strong valve springs, not nearly as critical on cars older than the mid-50s) and other additives (don't bother), followed by synthetic vs. conventional oils (synthetic is probably overkill on an old car with large clearances), with #3 being about "detergent" oils.

 

The short version is what Stude Light and Spinney have said, and the presenter said he wishes that they had chosen another descriptor other than "detergent." When asked, I'd say that more than 3/4 of the 55 people in attendance raised their hands thinking that "detergent" oil cleans out old deposits in an engine. FALSE. There's a widespread myth that detergent oils have cleaning agents in them to keep engines clean inside, and that those agents will knock any old sludge loose and clog small oil passages, possibly destroying an engine. That is 100% false (cue the anecdotal story from someone who says he's seen it happen). As the others have said, detergent oils do not clean out the engine, they do not soften or loosen old deposits, and they don't "clean" the existing sludge out. What they do is keep particles in suspension instead of letting them settle out, ostensibly to let the oil filter capture them. It works really well in modern cars, but it's even more useful in an old car where there is no filter, because it won't settle out into the pan or elsewhere in the block. You have to change your oil to get rid of the contaminants, but it's better than scraping them out of the pan with a spoon every few years.

 

From the horse's mouth: detergent oils will not clean out an old engine and cause sludge to dislodge and ruin the engine. It will help reduce the formation of new sludge (which was largely a by-product of crappy oil technology and leaded gas anyway) because the particles that used to settle into the engine are now carried out in the oil.

 

He also said that there are very few "non-detergent" oils left on the market simply because they aren't needed any longer and that most are not formulated for automotive use, which can cause all kinds of new headaches. In short, don't bother, don't worry, and use the good stuff.

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The myth about detergent oils damaging old engines was debunked by oil industry tests long ago. The real question is why this myth keeps popping up everytime the subject of engine oils comes up.  Anyone who thinks they are being authentic to old engine design by using non detergent oils can have an authentic sludge build up that is the real culprit for damaging  engines. 

 

Synthetics are good. But don't get fooled into thinking they can be left in an antique engine longer, - the same way synthetics can extend modern engine oil change intervals. 

 

I agree with Matt that it's better to use conventional motor oil and change it more often,  than it is to try to save some money by running expensive synthetic longer before changing it. That's just kicking the cost-can down the road to having to do an engine rebuild that much sooner.      

 

Paul

 

 

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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9 minutes ago, PFitz said:

Synthetics are good. But don't get fooled into thinking they can be left in an antique engine longer, - the same way synthetics can extend modern engine oil change intervals. 

 

I agree with Matt that it's better to use conventional motor oil and change it more often,  than it is to try to save some money by running expensive synthetic longer before changing it. That's just kicking the cost-can down the road to having to do an engine rebuild that much sooner.      

I agree.  What an oil filter, if you have one, does NOT catch is the liquid contaminants such as water and acids which are the by-products of the combustion process, and by unburned gasoline.  This liquid contamination is exacerbated by the inefficient (by modern standards) design of L-head and T-head engines.  Drain your oil while engine is HOT (45-minute drive) and leave the plug out for at least half an hour while you attend to other periodic maintenance.  Since I can be forgetful, I place an oil jug (to use in the refill process) on the driver's seat as a reminder that the drain plug is out.

 

I usually change oil every 12-15 months, usually at the end of the touring season so as not to leave contaminated oil in the sump over the winter / period of much less frequent use, whether I've driven 1.000 miles or 200 since the last oil change.

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1 hour ago, PFitz said:

The real question is why this myth keeps popping up everytime the subject of engine oils comes up.

 

Not really. Before the Internet, this was common knowledge, circulated in car enthusiast circles, printed in magazines, etc. I fully believed it when I got my first car. Napa had non-detergent oil on the shelf, and I used it. When I got my first gas station job, the owner laughed at that. He said: "We had detergent multiviscosity oil by 1956 for sure, maybe earlier, and we used it in everything. Do you really think that car has never had any?"

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)

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14 hours ago, PFitz said:

 

Synthetics are good. But don't get fooled into thinking they can be left in an antique engine longer, - the same way synthetics can extend modern engine oil change intervals. 

 

I don't believe in this for modern engines either. The synthetic manufacturers like to promote extended change intervals to justify the cost of the oil. They claim the oil lasts that much longer, and they are probably right. It is better oil. The main reason, however, for oil changes is to get all the acid, carbon, water, gasoline, and other foreign crap out of the engine. Grimy put that better than I could.

 

Extended oil changes matter less on brand new cars, and recently rebuilt engines. The better the ring sealing is, the less it matters. On an engine with some miles on it, the oil gets contaminated much faster. The bearings are worn and the bearing clearance is looser. When the clearance is looser, the sizes of the circles (the crank journal outer diameter and the bearing inner diameter) get further apart. This makes the contact area smaller. The pressure of the firing impulse is concentrated in a smaller area on the bearing surface. The oil needs to work better than it ever did when the car was new, but it is probably diluted with gas, soot and water that blew past the rings.

 

This is all just as true for cars with oil filters as cars those without.

 

I would rather have fresh clean oil of any kind than nasty fouled oil due to an extended change interval, no matter how breakdown-resistant that oil might be.

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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On 11/19/2017 at 7:21 PM, Matt Harwood said:

The short version is what Stude Light and Spinney have said, and the presenter said he wishes that they had chosen another descriptor other than "detergent." When asked, I'd say that more than 3/4 of the 55 people in attendance raised their hands thinking that "detergent" oil cleans out old deposits in an engine. FALSE. There's a widespread myth that detergent oils have cleaning agents in them to keep engines clean inside, and that those agents will knock any old sludge loose and clog small oil passages, possibly destroying an engine. That is 100% false (cue the anecdotal story from someone who says he's seen it happen). As the others have said, detergent oils do not clean out the engine, they do not soften or loosen old deposits, and they don't "clean" the existing sludge out. What they do is keep particles in suspension instead of letting them settle out, ostensibly to let the oil filter capture them. It works really well in modern cars, but it's even more useful in an old car where there is no filter, because it won't settle out into the pan or elsewhere in the block. You have to change your oil to get rid of the contaminants, but it's better than scraping them out of the pan with a spoon every few years.

 

My understanding is that detergents DO remove deposits from an engine but slowly.  The removed deposits are kept in suspension by dispersant additives.   See Corvair Oil Article, page 18, Bottom Line Recommendation #10:

Quote

Forget the myth that you can’t put high detergent oils in older engines or engines that have been using poor quality oil.  I do it every day!  50% of this market is API SF or lower, frequently without thermostats.  They are full of sludge.  Some drain plugs come out looking like a cork, with an inch or so of thick sludge on the end.  No matter what the engine, I put in a 10W-30 high detergent CI-4 oil and instruct the customer to come back when it thickens up, or the following week if he doesn’t want to check it himself.  Once  it  no  longer  thickens  up  quickly  we  move  on  to  15W-40 and add  a  1200  mile engine cleaner.  At the end of that cycle we move to whatever oil the engine should have.

 

From Bob is the Oil Guy, Bob explains the two functions of detergents:

  1. First, they lift any deposits from the surfaces from the surfaces of the engine to which they adhere to and then chemically combine to form a barrier film, which keeps the deposits from coming out of suspension and coagulating. Detergents form two kinds of barrier films. On small particles, (generally less than 0.02 microns in size), detergents form an absorbed film which slows down coagulation of the particles. On much larger particles, (ranging from 0.5 to 1.5 microns in size), detergents cause the particle surfaces to acquire an electrical charge of the same sign so they can repel each other.

    The polar metallic heads of detergents have a great affinity for each other. These molecules attract each other like magnets and form clusters called "micelles".

    The deposit precursors being oil-insoluble have a greater affinity for the detergent molecule than the oil molecules. They are attracted to the detergent micelles (much like iron fillings are drawn to a magnet) and trapped within them. Thus, they are kept in solution in the engine oil and cannot settle out to form deposits in the engine.

    The number of particles that can be contained in a micelle is limited. When a number of particles exceed the capacity of the type of detergent chemistry being used deposits can form. Therefore it is necessary that the engine oil be drained before this happens if engine cleanliness is to be maintained.

  2. Secondly, detergents neutralize any acids formed by the combustion of the fuel by chemically reacting with the acids in order to form harmless neutralized chemicals.

  3. Dispersants are polar additives that are used to disperse sludge and soot particles for the purpose of preventing agglomeration, settling and deposits. Dispersants envelops particles and keep them finely divided. Dispersants are polymeric and ashless compounds. These compounds are based on long chain hydrocarbons, which are acidified and then neutralized with a compound containing basic nitrogen.

See Engine Sludge.

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11 minutes ago, fraso said:

Secondly, detergents neutralize any acids formed by the combustion of the fuel by chemically reacting with the acids in order to form harmless neutralized chemicals.

What follows from this is that the additives are *depleted* as they perform their valuable work.  I have seen elsewhere, probably in the entire article read some time ago, is that the additives become depleted from oxidation over time even if the engine is not being run--another argument for frequent oil changes.

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These oil threads always get out of hand so I sometimes wonder why I chime in.  All my "opinions" are based on SAE papers (which come from exhaustive testing at the OEMs) and one-on-one discussions with several oil chemists that work or have worked at GM, (several of which are published).  Additionally, I've worked with aircraft engine rebuilders and listened to their experiences.  What I've learned is the explanations are not black and white.  Like most things in life, it is very complex and there are a lot of interactions of each part of an additive package, not to mention the base fluid.  There are books written on this so it is hard to get into details on a forum since often is it is just snippets but does not always tell the whole story.

 

So going back to post #1....we take someone new to the hobby that asks "What kind of oil do I use?" and we immerse them in some complex discussion of how oils behave, how and why the additive packages were developed and what each one does.  Add in lots of chemical and engineering theory and arguments to confuse the heck out of them and leave them with an unresolved issue.  That said, I will repost my original advice:

 

1) Besides using modern oils, the best thing you can do is to drop the oil pan and clean the sludge accumulations formed from using the old oils without the dispersant. Once you do that, use today's oils and do regular changes you will not get new sludge deposits.

2) As far as engine oil weight, it depends on the temperatures you'll be driving in, splash lube vs full pressure, engine/oil pump wear, etc. I would suggest finding a weight that gives you a normal pressure reading for a typical drive.

3) Synthetics are best but I run mineral oil because without a filter, I like to do frequent changes and don't want to waste the money. Today's mineral oils are far, far superior to stuff back in the 20s.

4) And save your money on all the snake oil additives on the market.

 

Is any of this advice not good or not to the point? I'm not trying to be critical of anyone here because we each bring a good piece of the story and can learn from each other but sometimes we are a little too helpful and the help gets lost in the discussion.

Scott

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The rate of oxidation depends on oil temperature and this depends upon engine speed and load.  I suspect that the engine oil in most of the vehicles owned by members of this forum rarely get really hot.


Machinery Lubrication: The Importance of Oil Oxidation Stability

Quote

Generally, oxidation will reduce the service life of a lubricant by half, for every 10 degrees C (18 degrees F) increase in fluid temperature above 60degrees C (140 degrees F). This concept is based on the Arrhenius rate rule, which is named for the 19th-century Swedish chemist Svante Arrhenius.

 

There was a discussion on BITOG about too frequent oil changes not being beneficial for 3 reasons:

  • unnecessary cost
  • start-up  wear from a lack of lubrication as the oil filter fills
  • additive activation

I'm not sure what is the real effect of additive activation but here's one of topic about it:  NEw oil= increased engine wear?

 

I recall a discussion on another forum about a member forgoing oil changes completely because he was using a Franz Oil Filter.  He didn't seem to understand or care about additives.

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3 hours ago, fraso said:

The rate of oxidation depends on oil temperature and this depends upon engine speed and load.  I suspect that the engine oil in most of the vehicles owned by members of this forum rarely get really hot.


Machinery Lubrication: The Importance of Oil Oxidation Stability

 

There was a discussion on BITOG about too frequent oil changes not being beneficial for 3 reasons:

  • unnecessary cost
  • start-up  wear from a lack of lubrication as the oil filter fills
  • additive activation

I'm not sure what is the real effect of additive activation but here's one of topic about it:  NEw oil= increased engine wear?

 

I recall a discussion on another forum about a member forgoing oil changes completely because he was using a Franz Oil Filter.  He didn't seem to understand or care about additives.

 

 

This topic of oil getting too hot used to come up , so I decided to run some oil temp tests a few years ago. I ordered several oil temperature gauges with mechanical sending units and persuaded a couple of my customers to let me install them in their cars. First was a 1931 Franklin sedan. Franklins being air cooled it was always speculated that they must be running hot.   The oil temps stayed in the low 100's.

 

Next up was a 32 Franklin sedan. The 32's have a reputation of running hotter. I drove that one myself for 150 miles over hills and highways in western Massachusetts and eastern NY. Going up a very long hill east of Albany I was able to get the oil up to 150 F. Most of the trip it was in the 110F to 120F range. Then for comparison, I installed the same gauge and sender unit in my 98 Windstar. It stayed a very consistent 210F. So much for old cars run hot !!!

 

I then called Quaker State and talked with one of their engineers. After I told him the results of these test, he said that what we were more at risk of running too cold to activate some of the additives in modern oil.

 

Take it for what it's worth.

 

BTW, check out why with so many commercial engines, it's standard practice to  never change the engine oil. They just periodically send out oil samples to a test lab (you can too) and put in additives that the tests show are needing to be replenished. They only change filters.  If oil really breaks down so easily you can bet they wouldn't risk  such VERY expensive engines on such a practice as that.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)

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You guys are hilarious......I needed the laugh. I could not get through half of you.......thank you all. You guys would be great sitting around with tinkering or sharing a beer. Being I have a Peerless/Carling Black Label.  

 

On a more serious note, I will get a chance to go through all your suggestions in December with a couple of days to change the fluids and clean her up. 

 

Now, if any of you "WISE GUYS" know much about the vacuum tank and carb settings also, lets start another talk about them. I open my shut off between the vacuum tank and carb and fuel pours out the carb. I have a old Dyke's maintenance book and the manual. I thin the float is flooded in the vacuum tank. Thoughts?

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On 11/21/2017 at 7:52 AM, Grimy said:

What follows from this is that the additives are *depleted* as they perform their valuable work.  I have seen elsewhere, probably in the entire article read some time ago, is that the additives become depleted from oxidation over time even if the engine is not being run--another argument for frequent oil changes.

Grimy - Might need your input more later as I might be in the way of a 1927 Pierce-Arrow to go with the Peerless. I am in California, are you nearby?

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Steve, I'm in San Leandro, just south of Oakland, and will look forward to hearing from you.  If you get the '27 Pierce (good luck!), then you'll need to find a Packard to complete your collection of the famous Three P's.

 

A full head of fuel in the vacuum tank should NOT cause overflow in the carb.  Check your carb float for cracks/leaks, and the needle and seat.

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On 12/5/2017 at 6:16 PM, Grimy said:

Steve, I'm in San Leandro, just south of Oakland, and will look forward to hearing from you.  If you get the '27 Pierce (good luck!), then you'll need to find a Packard to complete your collection of the famous Three P's.

 

A full head of fuel in the vacuum tank should NOT cause overflow in the carb.  Check your carb float for cracks/leaks, and the needle and seat.

I am in Castro Valley. We will have to meet up at Elios sometime when they have a show. Working on getting time to change fluids and tune the vacuum tank and carb. 

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