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How realistic is it to plan for a million mile motor?


Frantz

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I'm getting old because I thought I knew which book I read this in, but I couldn't find it.... I remember reading about a maintenance schedule for a Studebaker motor that generally was overhaul every 100k and full rebuild and machining at 250 and the bores would be bored out to their max by the 1,000,000 mark. I was thinking this was in one of my AMC books and they were talking about an AMC block was nearly as stout in the alloy used in the block (high nickle). Anyhow... got me wondering how realistic this is generally? Could you do that with a model A motor? With modern oils and bearing materials if you started with a fresh build how far can the block go?

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I am currently in the process of overhauling a 302 Ford from my brothers 1992 Lincoln Mark 7, it had 140,000 miles on it.  Bores look excellent with no ridge so I had a friend of mine come over with his Sunnen bore taper gauge. We were amazed that 7 bores had only .0005”taper and one had .001”

Just a quick ball hone is all it’s getting and a new set of standard rings. 

Yes I think it’s entirely possible to get a million miles from a block over the course of several overhauls, boring oversize only when necessary.

Might be possible with a Model A engine but frequent oil changes and filtering are paramount.  Just can’t see anyone wanting to travel a million miles at 45mph though...

Edited by Modeleh (see edit history)
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There are long haul diesel trucks that have done a million miles without an overhaul. There have been cars in taxi or limo service that have done a million miles or close to it. I know of a 56 Cadillac limousine and a 63 Plymouth taxicab. I believe both had the engine rebuilt once. Then there is the well documented 1966  Volvo P1800 with 3 million miles in the hands of the original owner.

 

Either the Studebaker or AMC engine should go a million miles. Do a really good rebuild with the best available parts including modern moly rings, they don't cut the cylinders the way the old rings did. Break it in carefully and run full synthetic oil with the stock full flow filter plus a Frantz bypass filter for clean, clean, clean oil. Make sure the air filter and the filter for the crankcase ventilation system is perfect allowing no dust into the engine. Maintain it by the book and 500,000 mile or more between rebuilds should be a breeze.

 

Later. ...Irv Gordon's 1966 Volvo P1800 now had 3 million miles on it. Engine has been rebuilt twice, transmission overhauled once.

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hsx/2011/11/Driven---1966-Volvo-1800S/3704971.html

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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Modeleh the reason cylinders don't get worn anymore was the change to low tension rings in the mid 80s. They did it to cut friction and improve gas mileage. A side effect is lower engine wear. Eventually the rings wear out but they don't cut the cylinders.

 

Lincolns of that model have gone way more than 140,000 miles in limo service. I had one, an ex limo 1997 Town Car with over 500,000 km on it or 312,000 miles. The engine was still going strong but the plastic intake manifold was crumbling and I didn't feel like replacing it.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, Modeleh said:

Just can’t see anyone wanting to travel a million miles at 45mph though...


Haha, yeah I can't say that's top of my list... but I've got time. It's more of a "do no harm" philosophy. So sometimes I get crazy ideas like using a Model T or A for daily driver for the nice months when I only have shorter trips. The A makes more sense from a modern vehicle. Both are up on my list because of parts availability for wear items.

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I bought Big Blue, a used 1977 Chevy Suburban Silverado 1/2 Ton C-10 from a friend in 1983. At 52,xxx miles, just prior to my purchase it had just received a new 305ci Target Master engine 2 months earlier. The prior owner had an oil change done at a San Antonio dealership which left the drain plug loose so three miles down the road and pulling a utility trailer with the family's camping gear, the original engine locked up.

 

I have been brought up by a Dad who taught me to change oil and filter every 3,000 miles - not to put clean oil through a Less-Than-Clean filter. I have followed his advice since oil is cheaper than engines.

 

The Target Master which was installed at 52,xxx did beautifully until, at around 280,xxx miles, a brand new Western Auto fuel pump with a defective diaphragm filled the oil pan with gasoline. Yes, it smoked a lot and I didn't know why since the dipstick showed "full and clean" so I just parked it after the 35 mile trip home and decided to look into it the next morning. Trying to start it the next morning with the oil pan full of gas and gas vapor, the explosion was heard throughout our otherwise quiet suburban neighborhood. Neighbors came running, the hood had dents from where the rocker covers had torn off of the heads, and the oil pan lay on the concrete below "Big Blue". Neighbors asked if I'd been doing business with the wrong people.

 

The replacement engine this time was a 350 4-Bolt-Main Mr. Goodwrench, and shortly afterward I changed jobs, thereafter driving well over 100,000 miles per year overseeing a sales team throughout the East Coast and Southeast.

 

When the Suburban took on water into the transmission during Hurricane Katrina in August of 2005, the odometer had rolled over multiple times, totaling 1,433,xxx miles - yes - One Million, Four Hundred Thirty-Three Thousand. That stated, the replacement engine - properly maintained, had delivered 1,153,xxx miles -

 

again - One Million One Hundred Fifty Three Thousand miles without any internal engine repairs - just oil changes, a few alternators, two starters, and the regular replacement of normal wear parts for the HEI distributor - (Rotor and Module).

 

Can't ask for better than that, can you?

 

By the way, after going under in Katrina, the Suburban went to a friend who builds StreetRods. He used the engine, as well as the 12-Bolt rear-end, and as I recall, he said it only took a "freshening" - didn't need a rebuild - amazing!

 

PS: He also used the 435,xxx mile 454ci engine and 400 Turbo-Hydro transmission from our '78 Suburban Silverado in another StreetRod, but did "go through" that engine.

 

 

Edited by Marty Roth (see edit history)
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What we used to call extremely high mileage is very common today. When I was a kid we saw cars in the junkyard with 80,000 miles on them and that was typical, although I know exceptions existed.

 

Ten years ago I was surprised to see cars going through a dealer auction with 200,000 to 250,000 and selling wholesale.

 

In my mind, the two greatest contributors to the extended mileage are fuel injection and overdrive. Fuel injection did away with automatic chokes that washed the lubrication from cylinder walls for at least 5 minutes when they worked right to constant.

 

Overdrives just keep getting better, 1700 RPM at 70 MPH is light work for an engine.

 

The only real problems that arise are engineering assumptions that go into production, fail in service, and don't get changed. Cadillac's fine threads taped into aluminum, GM's clunking steering intermediate shaft, and other things manufacturers seem to be amazingly oblivious to. I remember looking at a new 1979 or '80 Camaro for my Wife and asking if they had done anything to keep the mirrors from falling off the door, just got a bewildered look. Or the S-10 pickup i traded after 18 months because I didn't want to carry the driver's door home in the back like other guys had.

 

I have reverse cooling in my LT-1 and know the befits of that. And those 4.6 Lincoln Town Cars must hold some kind of record.

 

It all contributes, but Fuel Injection and Overdrive are the keys.

Bernie

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I think those are more than fair points on EFI and OD. not all million miles are the same. Having formerly been in the car business I know that there is nothing special about 200k. Even though we were a new car dealership, we did sell cars over 200k if they were nice enough at trade in. Generally what kills a new car is not the motor. In pa it's often rust or some emission issue that's more costly to trace down than the car is worth.

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I had a Toyota Sequoia as an every day vehicle  2001 till 2013 with 580,000 miles on it and it did not burn oil, 4 wheel drive,  and took care of it.  Sold it to a friend and it now has 760,000 on it and running as strong as ever.  If you take care of your vehicle, 1,000,000 is just a matter of time................................

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2 hours ago, Frantz said:

some emission issue that's more costly to trace down than the car is worth.

 

Although my Son's 2000 Buick Park Avenue is still drivable and could get him back and forth to a part time job while he finishes full time college, it is throwing a code for the transmission and can not be driven and appears to be a great treat to the environment.

 

Meanwhile.

2013._10._16._gonggun_banggongyudotan_si

 

And that's the calm beginning of the trip. At the other end.

1050512215.jpg

 

Ecology- 1

Buick-0

And technology heads for the million mile engine fooled with corn licker, er, a, fueled.

Bernie

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Here in Cyprus , my taxi driver who mainly does airport transfers ,has just retired a 1995 merc 280 to his son with 980000 miles ,

one Diesel engines all its life , couple of overhauls , as its his evening driver may be a couple of years before it reaches the 1M.

Personally I agree with some of comments made , I would be bored with the same car long before 1m was insight. I used to travel for business and 50k was my average for 6 years , but thought of 20 years of that lifestyle would be a nightmare. I am retired now and 7/8 k per annum is my norm. So as ' Trinidad' humouressly quoted not enough years left..

perhaps the answer is a family car passed through generations.

Edited by Pilgrim65 (see edit history)
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I see many Crown Vic's and Lincoln Town car's that have the 4.6 modular V8 that show over 900,000 kilometers that are still running very good.

Most of them are highway airport limos or highway taxi's.

There's at least 2 Town Cars for sale locally, 2009 and newer with over 1,000,000 kilometers showing. Most of them state original engine, several transmission rebuilds, and new intakes.

 We took apart a 96 Cadillac Northstar with well over 300,000 kilometers and the cylinder bores were perfect, no ridge, no scuffing, no need for honing. Too bad the block itself was mushy aluminum that couldn't hold head bolts

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  • 1 month later...

I have read stories of the old Checker Cabs that NYC once used, that had over 500,000 miles on the clock. They were replaced for newer and more ecologically friendly vehicles but probably could have gone further.

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On 11/14/2017 at 1:52 PM, Modeleh said:

I am currently in the process of overhauling a 302 Ford from my brothers 1992 Lincoln Mark 7, it had 140,000 miles on it.  Bores look excellent with no ridge so I had a friend of mine come over with his Sunnen bore taper gauge. We were amazed that 7 bores had only .0005”taper and one had .001”

Just a quick ball hone is all it’s getting and a new set of standard rings. 

Yes I think it’s entirely possible to get a million miles from a block over the course of several overhauls, boring oversize only when necessary.

Might be possible with a Model A engine but frequent oil changes and filtering are paramount.  Just can’t see anyone wanting to travel a million miles at 45mph though...

 

The original 302 in my 94 F150 at 215K had very little wear when I tore it apart after the block cracked. The cylinders had no ridges and some cross hatching was still visible in the bores. Main bearings looked good too. If Ford would have designed freeze plugs in the rear part of the block it would have never cracked.

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Core or casting holes were not designed as recipients of "freeze plugs" therefore they do not serve that purpose.  Maybe if everyone called the plugs "core plugs" we wouldn't believe in them as protecting our engines.  Many engines and radiators do not drain completely when we open the drains.  An engine should always have some antifreeze in it, that way the un-drained corners are protected.

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The plugs had popped out on the sides so I had hoped the same happened to the "ones in the back" like most other engines do. Surprise I only found cracked water jackets in the back when I pulled the engine. I have a feeling it would have survived if it had plugs in the back. It still ran fine after it thawed out.

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On 11/15/2017 at 12:35 PM, Rogerrabbit said:

I had a Toyota Sequoia as an every day vehicle  2001 till 2013 with 580,000 miles on it and it did not burn oil, 4 wheel drive,  and took care of it.  Sold it to a friend and it now has 760,000 on it and running as strong as ever.  If you take care of your vehicle, 1,000,000 is just a matter of time................................

 

Many modern day vehicles like yours can last for 500,000 miles of more depending on how they are designed and made and more importantly if they are taken care of. Your Sequoia is one example. Another example is the 9 year old Million Mile Toyota Tundra. Seems this was a work truck used to haul heavy loads of oil field equipment around Texas by it's owner. It had regular oil changes and maintenance throughout it's life and just kept on doing it's job. The real interesting part of this story is what was found when the Million Mile Tundra was torn down. A lot of what was found proves that when a vehicle is built right and maintained a million miles can be achieved and should not be a big surprise.

 

I personally own a Toyota Tundra as well. It is a well built truck and is used to haul cargo and tow my enclosed car trailer and does it's job well. I change the oil periodically and it goes to the dealer once a year for it's annual safety/emissions inspections and any maintenance it needs. Other than that it just keeps on going.

Based on surveys I have been receiving from Toyota this past year I get the impression that Toyota is planning a full redesign of the Tundra in the not too distant future. The questions on these surveys have been very interesting from an engineering point of view and provide a little insight into what Toyota is thinking. If some of these things are actually incorporated into the next generation Tundra, Ford/Chevy/Dodge will have some new things to think about. 

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2 hours ago, Curti said:

The holes in the side of blocks are there to remove the sand after the casting cooled.  I don't know how the name 'freeze plug' ever came to be.  Core plug is correct.  

 

Not to this bunch.

The-Twilight-Zone-Hocus-Pocus-and-Frisby

 

They were the ones talking about freeze plugs, making bearing inserts out of their belt, putting clothes pins on fuel lines, and all the other cracker barrel BS I listened to when I was a kid interested in old cars.

Didn't take long to tune them out and start buying books, automotive text books and old shop manuals. And you had to be careful about that.

Bernie

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Drive gently and do the maintenance. A local Cancer hospital routinely gets 500,000+ miles on it's GM based Limos. They have their own mechanical shop and cars are rigorously maintained. Having a high  roller patient sitting on the side of the tollway waiting for a replacement limo is bad for business. This is a For Profit Hospital so international patients and wealthy patients are the norm.

Edited by plymouthcranbrook (see edit history)
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Not to go off topic here, but in reference to post 21 by 60 Flat Top, I once pulled apart a Model A motor and in place of the babbitt bearing material in one main journal, I found a piece of leather. This was a running motor with no noise.

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Yes, people used to do that. I think that is more of a "get home" thing than anyone's attempt at a repair, though during the depression, or the war, who knows. Parts and materials were expensive or scarce. Cars that had been allowed to knock often had a flat spot on the journal. It would be pretty tough to fit a bearing to a journal that isn't round....

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3 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

Not to go off topic here, but in reference to post 21 by 60 Flat Top, I once pulled apart a Model A motor and in place of the babbitt bearing material in one main journal, I found a piece of leather. This was a running motor with no noise.

 

I guess that explains why Chicago Rawhide is the name for a bearing company

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7 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

Not to go off topic here, but in reference to post 21 by 60 Flat Top, I once pulled apart a Model A motor and in place of the babbitt bearing material in one main journal, I found a piece of leather. This was a running motor with no noise.

 

I have heard from many places that part of a leather belt was a road repair in the day.

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Another significant factor in long engine life is constant use.  Constant use doesn't mean 2 miles per day either.  When an engine is warmed all the metal within the engine is at it operating temperature "size".  The longer run times allow condensation to be expelled rather than accumulated in the crank case, under valve covers, etc.  Low run times also increase carbon build-up. At least that was the case in older engines.  

 

Several of the examples of long engine life noted above are for constant or near constant use cars.  I am guessing that my fully rebuilt 1967 289 Ford engine will struggle to get 50,000 miles before I am forced to replace seals at the very least.

 

As a further example, General aviation engines are considered good for 2,000 reliable hours (generally speaking).  If flown regularly and for sufficiently long trips, they can go 2,500 hours with no change in their original compression.  If flown irregularly, they have maintenance headaches every 200 hours.

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