Seeking advice on registering classic cars in California

[1935Packard]

I'm going to be moving to southern California from the east coast, and I was hoping list-members might have some good advice on do's and don'ts for registering antique cars there. By way of background,  I have two antique cars; I drive them each around 700 miles per year; and I have owned both of them for more than 10 years.  I'm having them shipped in enclosed trailers to the new house.  When I get there, of course, I'll have to register them.  I'm particularly interested in advice on where/when to go for registration; whether one should get a historic registration or regular registration; how the taxes or registration fees work; whether it's easy or hard (or worthwhile/not)  to get YOM plates, etc.  I've looked around for advice on this on the web, but I haven't found very much, so I thought folks here might be able to help. 

 

Oh, and if your advice is not to move to southern California, I get that, but that part has already been settled.

 

Thanks!

Edited November 13, 2017 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[Real Steel]

Old cars are registered the same way as newer cars. 

 

All smog test rules apply if your cars are newer-ish.  (the cut-off year rules change sometimes, so check the latest rules).

 

You can get new 'Historic Vehicle' plates just by filling out a form (I don't remember the cut-off year for that).  About $50 or so.

 

YOM plates can be done if you know what you are doing and you know how to stand your ground with DMV.  There are many points that must be considered, but it boils down to this: 

Get a PAIR of matching plates that are the same year as your vehicle, make sure they are authentic and steel, make sure they are clean and legible, unrestored is okay.  Make sure the number is 'DMV clear' (no one else has that number).  If the DMV clerk is a problem, ask for the supervisor.  Fill out the correct form.  Bring your current registration and proof of insurance.  Bring cash or check.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Real Steel (see edit history)

[1935Packard]

Thanks, Real Steel!  A few followups: 

 

  Do most collectors use regular plates or historic vehicle plates?  From what I read on the web, the historical vehicle plates come with a lot of restrictions. I gather that most who drive their cars get regular plates, with driving limits then effectively imposed by their insurance policies rather than state law?

 

On the YOM plates, should I wait to first register the car and then larer come back with the YOM plates?  Or should I go to the DMV the 1st time with the YOM plates?   Not sure if the latter is possible. 

 

My cars are pre-1950, so no need to worry about smog tests.  

[Grimy]

Inquire from DMV how your car will be valued (less is good), because CA registration includes a huge ad valorem  (tax on value) component.  *IF* you have conventional plates or YOM, you must pay full ad valorem each year.  BUT if you get Horseless Carriage (HC- thru 1922 plus all V-16s thru early 1960s) or Historic Vehicle (HV - post 1922 thru more-than-25-years-old) plates, there is a flat $2 per year ad valorem, irrespective of DMV's value.  For example, my 1918 Pierce acquired in 2016 came with 1918 YOM plates registered to it, but the renewal would have been $959 for that one year to keep the YOM plates assigned to it; so I put HC plates on it and just wrote a check for $107 for the coming year.

 

For HC or HV plates, you are required to sign a DMV statement that the car(s) will be used ONLY for tours, shows, parades, club functions and other events of public interest BUT that is not what Section 5004 (f)of the California Vehicle Code (CVC) says: 

 

"(f) As used in this section [5004, authorizing HV and HC plates], a vehicle is of historic interest if it is collected, restored, maintained and operated by a collector or hobbyist principally [emphasis added, the key concept here] for purposes of exhibition and historic vehicle club activities."

 

To me, "principally" is 51% of my use.  And I carry a copy of CVC Sec. 5004 with my registration and insurance cards.  I've never had to play that card with a police officer, but I am prepared....

[Grimy]

Afterthought:  To inquire about how your cars will be valued, call the DMV Public Inquiries Unit in Sacramento at 916-657-6560.  The "field offices" rarely deal with our cars, and even the supervisors and managers are unfamiliar with the provisions of Sec. 5000 and following sections (read it, esp. 5004).  The Public Inquiries Unit used to be old-car friendly, but not so much anymore (it's been about 3 years since I called them).  Key info is that you're moving to CA and have had them for x years and are trying to decide whether to request conventional plates, YOM, or HC/HV.

[1935Packard]

Thanks, Grimy!  That's extremely helpful.  I just called the number you mentioned and they transferred me over to the unit that does registration (direct 916-657-8035, for anyone interested).  Then they put me on hold with an estimated wait time of 123 minutes, but with the option (I took) of requesting a call back.  It will be interesting to see what they say.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by 1935Packard (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Thanks, please keep us all advised on what they say about what they use to assign values for cars brought in from out of state.  FYI, when a car is sold in CA, what you paid for it (an under-oath declaration) becomes the "basis" for future ad valorem.  However, if you bought a car 40 years ago for $100 and have done a full restoration during your ownership, its basis is still $100--if it's been in CA.  I don't know whether you would have to provide evidence of what you paid in another state many years ago.  It would seem that confining value to *acquisition* cost, however many years ago, is what they are after.  But bear in mind that the subscribe to and use various industry old car value guides.

[Grimy]

Another afterthought:  If the DMV functionary tries to use a current value guide to assess your car. ask for a supervisor/manager and state that you should be treated as if the car(s) had been in CA during your entire ownership.

 

Plan B, if you get a stonewall or ugly information, is to use a "DMV expediter" for a fee who work with old cars frequently.

[mike6024]

I know someone who got Historic Vehicle plates (HV) for a car that is only 1980 vintage, and he drives it regularly even though he is not supposed to. He claims it is advantageous. I also seem to remember he claimed to avoid the smog tests.

 

I am wondering if the "ad valorem" component of annual registrations is less if you have the HV plates?

 

Also there is something called non-operation status which you should use if you car is off the road for a year or more, it will save you money.

[Grimy]

2 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

know someone who got Historic Vehicle plates (HV) for a car that is only 1980 vintage, and he drives it regularly even though he is not supposed to. He claims it is advantageous. I also seem to remember he claimed to avoid the smog tests.

 

I am wondering if the "ad valorem" component of annual registrations is less if you have the HV plates?

 

Also there is something called non-operation status which you should use if you car is off the road for a year or more, it will save you money.

Mike, it's advantageous until he gets caught.  My Jeepster is more of an occasional driver and I have the 1963-issue black plates, still valid with current stickers, and pay the minimal ad valorem.  As I mentioned, HC and HV plates have a flat $2 per year ad valorem, but all other plates (conventional and YOM) pay the full boat ad valorem.

 

Non-op is about $20 per year, each year, but the vehicle can't be driven.  The advantage is in keeping the same plates and getting it back on the road again, because CA drops vehicles out of their computers after about 4 years of non-registration or non-op status.  It's really ugly to have to get your serial numbers re-verified after the car has once been dropped out.  And therein lies the value of non-op.

[Guest]

You can save yourself a lot of time and grief if you're a triple A member. I bring cars from out of state to SoCal semi-regularly, AAA gladly does the VIN check and registration without the attitude and extended wait times. If you you're not yet a member I recommend you join. In the last 20 years I've only had to go to the DMV for driver's license renewal. Good luck with your move! Oh, and what part of SoCal are you moving to?

Greg

[Real Steel]

I have driven old cars for many years, and I have never had a problem with cops or DMV.  The value of your car is what you declare it to be based on what you paid for it, not on the current street value.  Who's to say you got a great deal or a poor deal?

 

Hypothetically speaking:  If a person buys a car, the owner and seller could agree on a price, then a buyer can offer to pay him less for the car, but more for that unusual rock in the corner of his yard...after all, the buyer could have  been looking for that type of rock for many years and its worth serious money to him.  So the seller gets his money, and the buyer get a car and a rock.  Did you know that  DMV only taxes the car, not rocks?  I would never condone this behavior of course; this is only an example of how the car is only worth what the buyer decides and declares it to be.

[39BuickEight]

A friend of mine recently moved to CA and left his cars registered in Florida as long as he could.  Apparently there is a rather larger tax/fee of some sort when you register a vehicle there as a new resident.  He got away with it for a few years until the local police pulled him over as his out of state plate has been running around town for a while—his car stands out like a sore thumb (loud exotic).  He lives is a small town in SoCal.  They made him change his registration since he clearly used the car there now.  At least they let him claim the current value and not what it was 3 years prior.

[mike6024]

When you buy a used car you have to pay the sales tax when you go to transfer the registration. Actually it is called the "use tax" since sales tax is for new items only. That is up to 9.75% for us now, though it varies a bit depending on your county and city of residence.

 

I was not aware that moving here from out of state would subject you to the use tax though. Maybe or maybe not.

[1935Packard]

Mike, if I'm reading the code correctly, the use tax applies if you bought the car within a year of moving to California, and any state taxes you paid in your prior state are offset toward the California tax payment.

[1935Packard]

1 hour ago, Real Steel said:

I have driven old cars for many years, and I have never had a problem with cops or DMV.  The value of your car is what you declare it to be based on what you paid for it, not on the current street value.  Who's to say you got a great deal or a poor deal?

 

Hypothetically speaking:  If a person buys a car, the owner and seller could agree on a price, then a buyer can offer to pay him less for the car, but more for that unusual rock in the corner of his yard...after all, the buyer could have  been looking for that type of rock for many years and its worth serious money to him.  So the seller gets his money, and the buyer get a car and a rock.  Did you know that  DMV only taxes the car, not rocks?  I would never condone this behavior of course; this is only an example of how the car is only worth what the buyer decides and declares it to be.

 

I'm not going to misrepresent how much I paid for my cars, but getting to use the price originally paid rather than the current market value would be very helpful given the combination of inflation over time and work done on the cars.

[mike6024]

Yes you should not have to pay the sales/use tax. You bought it long ago in another state. 

 

Here is the fee calculator for Nonresident Vehicle Registration - https://www.dmv.ca.gov/wasapp/FeeCalculatorWeb/newResidentForm.do

 

Vehicle Registration Fee Calculator

     
 
 
Transaction Date:           November 13, 2017
Type of Calculation:           Nonresident Vehicle Registration
 
Type of Vehicle:           Automobile
Model Year:           1967
Motive Power:           Gas
 
First Operated in CA:           November 10, 2017
Acquired/Purchase Date:           September 01, 1997
Acquired From:           Private Party
Purchase Price:           $1,200.00
Use/Sales Tax Credit:           $100.00
 
County:           Sonoma
City:           Santa Rosa
Zip Code:           95407
 
Current Registration:      53.00
Current California Highway Patrol:      24.00
Current Vehicle License Fee:      1.00
Current County Service Authority for Freeway Emergencies Fee:      1.00
Current Fingerprint ID Fee:      1.00
Current Abandoned Vehicle Fee:      1.00
Current Valley Air Quality:      6.00
Alt Fuel/Tech Reg Fee:      3.00
Current Vehicle Theft/DUI 2:      2.00
Non-Resident Original Service Fee:      20.00
Reflectorized License Plate Fee:      1.00
 
Total Registration Fees:      $113.00
 
Total Use/Sales Tax (includes credit paid to another state):      $0.00
 
Grand Total Registration Fees:      $113.00
 
Print Result    
See Registration Fees and Smog Abatement/High Polluter Fees for additional information.
This is an estimate based on the information provided.  Fees may vary depending on the actual vehicle registration.  All fees are subject to statutory change.
 
 Calculator Home Page    
Calculate Another Vehicle
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Here's what I got for my own car, if theoretically I bought it in Nevada 20 years ago and just brought it here to California now.

 

My annual registration btw is about #100 or $97 due to it being low value (ad velorum tax component is low)

Edited November 14, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[vermontboy]

Based on a few old threads make certain that the serial number physically on the car matches your paperwork. I've owned more than one vehicle where that was not the case but when you buy a car within the state (NY) there is no check. Rebuilt engines could have been installed, door tags rusted off, firewall plates removed and reattached with screws, etc. I believe that California requires a check for incoming vehicles - hopefully someone who knows will comment.

Edited November 14, 2017 by vermontboy (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Two separate issues have been addressed above, and should not be confused: 

1. (where we started) What will be the recurring registration and license amount (fixed=reg fees, ad valorem=license, and thus tax deductible AT PRESENT from Federal income taxes if you itemize)?  This makes a difference in deciding to opt for conventional or YOM or HC/HV plates as discussed above. When one moves to CA, this is what you will pay every year.

 

2.  "Use tax" or sales tax.  IF you owned a car for awhile and haven't lived in CA, to my knowledge you owe NO use tax (private party) in lieu of sales tax collected by a dealer.  The one year mentioned is to prevent or deter people (primarily CA residents) from buying a car out of state and registering there for a short period to duck sales/use taxes here in Taxifornia. 

[Guest]

Hopefully your cars come from a state that issued titles to them, that will make things a bit simpler.  Title or not, you'll need to get the serial numbers physically verified by a DMV inspector or peace officer.

 

Make an appointment for any DMV visits, although the appointments may be a week or two out, you'll typically spend much less time at the DMV office than if you show up without an appointment.  It is not unusual for a line to form at DMV offices in urban areas 30 to 45 minutes before opening.  Some of the offices located in rural areas tend to have appointments available sooner than those located in urban areas.  As Greg LaR mentioned, your Auto Club of So Cal offices also provide many DMV services with typically a much shorter line, but there may be a few specialized services (YOM?) that may require a visit to DMV.  Just call the Auto Club and ask.

 

Although this document is intended for dealer personnel preparing registration/title applications, it may be useful in explaining fees, license plate types, etc.: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/reg_hdbk_pdf/toc

 

Decide what you want to end up with in terms of license plates (Historical, YOM, personalized, regular issue, etc.) and go from there.  I'd do it in as few steps as possible, since that will minimize the cost and effort for you.  Don't forget to switch over your driver's license, too, while you're at it.

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

This is just an aside, but it might bring a bit of hope

to all our California friends:

With so many antique cars and noted collections 

in California, why don't people get these fees simplified

and reduced?  It has been successful in other states.

 

After all, old cars are simply a hobby or a collection.

You don't pay every year to register your old pottery or old clocks.

Picture yourselves paying a "permanent registration":

a modest one-time fee that you never pay again

as long as you own the car.

Edited November 14, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Grimy]

John_S, I truly wish it were possible.  The CA legislature (>60%) passed, and Governor Jerry Brown signed, a law that became effective Nov 1st raising the gasoline tax 12 cents per gallon, diesel 20 cents, and increase in basic registration by an amount ranging from $38 (gasoline) to >$100 (all-electric) vehicles.  Even before this increase, my Jeepster's 1983 registration of $9 is now $117.  "The car is the enemy."  "Transit-oriented villages" are being developed around inter-urban light rail in major cities and their suburbs.

 

The gas tax fund for highway maintenance has been raided for social programs. CA now has 40 million residents; the 1980 census showed 22 million, and when I graduated from high school in 1960 we were about to break 9 million.  CA roads used to the best in the country; now we're close to the worst.

[ply33]

20 hours ago, GregLaR said:

You can save yourself a lot of time and grief if you're a triple A member. I bring cars from out of state to SoCal semi-regularly, AAA gladly does the VIN check and registration without the attitude and extended wait times. If you you're not yet a member I recommend you join. In the last 20 years I've only had to go to the DMV for driver's license renewal. Good luck with your move! Oh, and what part of SoCal are you moving to?

Greg

Last I checked, which admittedly was some years ago, AAA will not help you deal with YOM or historic plates. They seem to be focused on the more typical new and used car registration process.

 

Reading through the previous posts on this thread there is lots of accurate information but some things may not be clear. . . The historic tags in California seem to be much like those in other states: Reduced registration fees but restrictions on how much you can legally drive.

 

YOM plates in California seem to be a whole different beast than those in other states: You pay full regular car registration and a special plate fee. Basically it is like a modern car vanity tag but a bit cheaper (this year cost me $10 for my old car and $43 for my wife's car's vanity tag). The end result is the state has no problem with you driving the car exactly like a modern daily driver. Want to drive it to work every day? Go for it. Your insurance company may have a problem with that, but the state couldn't care less.

 

In terms of popularity? I see far more antique cars with YOM plates than ones with historic plates, so I guess for many people saving the money on yearly registration is not as big a deal as having a period correct plate.

 

For what it is worth, when I brought my car in to California decades ago I had to take it by the DMV where an inspector verified the numbers on the car matched the paperwork. I don't recall having to pay any sales/use tax on the value of the car at that time. (Prior to that when I moved into Maryland they insisted on collecting sales tax on the value of the car.)

[Grimy]

25 minutes ago, ply33 said:

Last I checked, which admittedly was some years ago, AAA will not help you deal with YOM or historic plates. They seem to be focused on the more typical new and used car registration process.

ply33, I changed the YOM plates to HC plates (see my post #4 above) at the DMV desk (DMV employees) of my local AAA office, and that was almost a year after I transferred the car into my name.  Not trying to sound like a snob, but the clientele in a AAA office is very different from the DMV clientele, and I think the DMV employees at AAA offices are selected for their people skills as well as their competence.

 

One thing I have neglected to mention previously:  A number of collectors of my acquaintance (ahem!) have their cars registered with HC/HV plates and carry their unregistered YOM plates on top of the HC/HV plates.  I know of only one gent who got jammed up for this in the past 20 years.  This is NOT lawful, but it is endemic if not pandemic.  A few years ago at an Association of California Car Clubs (ACCC) display at the State Capitol, I pointed out to the then-President that the vast majority of the cars on display were wearing YOM plates and asked if he believed that more than 20% were actually registered to those vehicles.  He didn't answer...  I wish ACCC would push for lower fees for YOM plates.

 

Another thought:  I always try to be fairly well-dressed (that is, not my garage attire) while visiting a DMV office, and wear a tie for a driver's license photo every five or so years.  The treatment by DMV employees and by police if I'm stopped (haven't been stopped in decades) is noticeably better--although by rights it shouldn't be.

[ply33]

58 minutes ago, Grimy said:

. . . A number of collectors of my acquaintance (ahem!) have their cars registered with HC/HV plates and carry their unregistered YOM plates on top of the HC/HV plates.  I know of only one gent who got jammed up for this in the past 20 years.  This is NOT lawful, but it is endemic if not pandemic.  .  .

 

Given that every Podunk town in California (and maybe the country) seems to begging for automatic license plate readers, I suspect that cars having illegal plates displayed will be stopped more often in the future. Of course, if the plates your acquaintances display have duplicate numbers with properly registered similar vintage cars they may still get away with it as it is unlikely that the enforcing officer could distinguish at a distance the difference between various makes of 20s or 30s cars so might not have their suspicions raised.

 

I haven't noticed: Do the historical plates get a yearly expiration sticker like YOM and regular plates. I've got a bolt on tab for displaying the expiration stickers above my YOM and don't recall seeing stickers on the cars with historical plates (I am usually looking at other things than the license plates). If you are displaying a YOM without the current registration stickers you could catch the eye of law enforcement more easily.

 

I know that the AAA office I checked back when I got my YOM tag around 1999 said they could not do it. I need to stop by AAA this week for something else, I guess I'll see if I could do YOM or historical plate registration at my local office. The people in the AAA office are much nicer than those in the DMV office so I will be very pleased to learn that they can do YOM registrations nowadays.

[Grimy]

15 minutes ago, ply33 said:

I haven't noticed: Do the historical plates get a yearly expiration sticker like YOM and regular plates. I've got a bolt on tab for displaying the expiration stickers above my YOM and don't recall seeing stickers on the cars with historical plates (I am usually looking at other things than the license plates). If you are displaying a YOM without the current registration stickers you could catch the eye of law enforcement more easily.

Yes, the HC/HV plates come with the same month and year expiry stickers as conventional plates.  And registered-with-DMV YOM plate renewals come with new year stickers and instructions to apply to a metal tab, the latter NOT furnished by DMV. My acquaintances post those stickers on tabs above/below YOMs.  My acquaintances plan to say "I am not defrauding the state of any funds, I just put the YOM on top for public appreciation to/from this specific show."

 

Interesting point about the license plate readers.  I think the pre-1956 CA plates would get a reading of "does not compute" in the past, but now on the newly-available-at-extra-cost black plates for ALL vehicles letters and numbers are randomly assigned rather than SAM123 (1956-62 yellow and 1963-70 black) or 789ART (1970-80 blue), so the software may have been upgraded.

[1935Packard]

I'm a AAA member, so I'll try that first and see if I can get it done through them.  Thanks, all, for the tips.

[Grimy]

31 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

I'm a AAA member, so I'll try that first and see if I can get it done through them.  Thanks, all, for the tips.

Please FIRST find out what your annual nut would be under conventional/YOM plates.  As mentioned, the ad valorem for HC/HV is only $2.

 

This is so long ago.... In 1970 while I was stationed at Ft Holabird in MD, the MD AAA got me CA registration and plates for a 1964 Cad 60S I'd bought in VA (as active military I was entitled to register in my state of domicile), but I had to register the car to a military address.  Not only for towing is AAA worth its weight!

[1935Packard]

I finally went to the DMV, and what I learned was sufficiently useful for others who may be moving to California that I thought I would provide the details.  It turned out that titling and registering my antique cars was much easier and -- and much cheaper! -- than I had thought.

 

Here's the scoop.  I wanted regular registration, not historical car registration, as I wanted to be able to drive my cars up to the insurance limits.  Given that, I was pretty worried about the annual  Vehicle License Free (VLF) ad valorem taxes.  But it turned out to be much less of a concern than I expected for two reasons.  The first reason is that their starting point is the price of the car when you bought it, which could be a long time ago.  When you title and register the car, they have you fill out a form saying what you bought the car for when you originally bought it.  I brought paperwork verifying those numbers, but they didn't check: You certify that it is truthful, and that's enough.  That amount is used to begin to determine the ad valorem tax (the annual tax on the car's value).  I bought my cars a long time ago.  And I bought then for much less than their current value given inflation, appreciation, and (in one case) a lot of expensive work on the car. But the starting point for their taxes is the initial purchase price.  

 

Second, and more importantly, the DMV assumes that all purchased cars depreciate to only 15% of their initial value over the first 11 years of your ownership.  Here's the chart that the DMV uses to calculate that.  This makes a huge difference in your taxes.  Say you bought a classic car for $50,000.  Under the chart, the first year you pay a  tax of $326, about 2/3 of 1 percent of the value.  But that declines over 11 years, so that by year 11 you are only paying a tax of $49  -- as if the car had depreciated to only $7,500.   That means that your annual VLF ad valorem tax on an antique car is only a large cost near the beginning of your ownership.  And critically, if you have owned the car outside California for a long time, the state assumes that the car has already depreciated from the initial purchase price out of state and that the car isn't worth much by the time you brought it to Calfornia. 

 

That worked well for me, as I have owned one car for 16 years and the other car for 11 years.  In both cases, the DMV started with my purchase price back in 2002 and 2007 (as I honestly and correctly stated it to them); assumed that the cars were now worth only 15% of what I paid; and taxed me on the assumed greatly-depreciated value.   

 

The DMV also did the YOM registration on my Packard with no problems. The person behind the desk seemed to know what to do, and I didn't have to ask for a manager or explain the process to them.

 

[ply33]

53 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

I finally went to the DMV, and what I learned was sufficiently useful for others who may be moving to California that I thought I would provide the details. . . .

 

Thank you for getting back to us on how it turned out. I am glad that the process was less expensive and troublesome than expected.

[46 woodie]

Mike6024 brings up a good point. Some states use the 25 year rule as to when a car can be registered as an antique. By using that rule any car up until 1995 is considered an antique. I don't think it's right but rules are rules. Another thing that "bugs" me is Vanity Plates that are on the wrong car. In my area there is a car with the plate "67 Vette" and it's on an old pick up truck. I would think that there is someone with a '67 Corvette that would like that plate.

[padgett]

In Florida it is 30 years old (1990) and there is a reduction in the annual registration. There is a "collector" plate but think it is Ugley.

 

BTW also in Florida, the plate stays with the owner and the "new plate fee" is a couple of hundred dollars so often a prior car's plate is used on a replacement.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)