GrahamPaige29

6 Volt Booster Starter Necessary?

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Geoff,

    You can use the 6V battery for the ignition (coil) and run the starter with the 12V battery.  It should spin over like crazy.  Remember it is positive ground so + to the block and - to the coil. 

 

(12V battery) + to the block; - to the starter switch, starter switch to the starter.

 

(6V battery) + to the block; - to the ignition switch, switch to the coil. (don't forget to turn the switch off or you will burn the points) (connections should match your Graham schematic)

 

I would connect the 12V battery to the starter with the plugs out and test how it turns over, you want to attack one problem at a time.

Next check spark/timing/points

Last fuel

 

She should fire up, two common Graham problems...first is the timing chain alignment (some people get it wrong) second is the distributer, when you install the cam you have to put the distributer drive +60 degrees to get it in the correct position or the distributor drive spins (inserting the cam) 60 degrees off #1 not a big problem.  Just check #1 to #1 cylinder and move the wires over as needed.

 

Good Luck

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Hey guys.  My buddy and I are going to put the engine back in tomorrow because we have the opportunity.  Then I will take pics of all my wiring and so on.  I might get a chance to try to start her again once I have the connections checked out.  Thanks for all your help.  I'm really wanting to hear the engine running.  It's one of those pivotal moments when you feel like you've actually made some progress.  My wife thinks "nothing's happening" because I've been on mechanical parts all summer.  She still looks like a primer covered junker.  But with the brakes, brake lines, steering, universal joints, and engine overhauled, I am feeling anxious to give her a short drive. 

 

Oh yeah one other issue.  When I took my clutch disc away to have it done, they put some nice new material on it but it seems it's too thick.  I can't get the pressure plate and throwout bearing working because they are too far back now.  I tried using some washers as "shims" to move the pressure plate back a bit but then the throwout bearing wouldn't sit right.  I think I'm going to have to get a shop to shave the clutch disc down somewhat or it just doesn't work.  Rrrgh.  The joys of a "non Model A" car...

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Spinneyhill, other than clean up I did little to the starter motor.  Its seemed to turn the engine fine before the rebuild.  The engine is tighter now of course but can still be turned by hand using a bar on the crankshaft.

 

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It seems to me that we should be a bit more methodical here. There are some things that should be checked off. We have been shooting in the dark a bit.

 

Is the starter up to the higher load now? i.e. had it tested. A "clean up" may not have left it in tip-top operating condition. Please describe what you did in this regard.

 

Do you have the correct heavy starter cables for 6V? If they get hot when trying to start the engine, you don't.

 

Do you have spark at all the spark plugs?     If yes, is it at the right time (i.e. timing)?

 

Do you have fuel i.e. are the plugs wet when you remove them?   Is the fuel reasonably new?

 

Then it should start.

 

It does sound a bit tight. You mention a "bar on the crankshaft" - how long is this bar? It should turn over on a crank handle with say 9 to 12" lever arm.

 

I have read admonishments on these fora against towing a car to start a rebuilt engine. If it won't start on the starting system, find out what is wrong. Towing it won't help and may make the problem worse.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

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I would take your disk, pressure plate, and maybe the flywheel back to the shop and see what they have to say. Some electrical shops will test the starter for free, maybe check around a bit.

Edited by JFranklin (see edit history)

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Back to the original question, yes 6v boosters do exist I have one. Problem is mine is over 50 years old. Been rebuilt and re-cabled a couple of the time but still works great. It has a multi-position switch for selecting charge rate and on the higher settings can be used to assist starting when you have a weak battery. It does 6v and 12v, it has started a bunch of cars with weak batteries. I used it last week to get my 7.3l diesel going when the battery didn't have enough umph to crank the engine without dropping to low in voltage for the computer to tell the injectors what to do. 

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Hey guys. Success!  At least with the starter motor. I cleaned the crap out of the connections inside and polished thee brushes.   Now it’s gut POWER even on 6 volts. I’ll spend the rest of today running wiring and see if it will start soon. Spinner hill was right about the starter motor being suspect. Lots of corrosion inside. 

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On 11/9/2017 at 5:26 PM, Graham Man said:

Geoff,

    You can use the 6V battery for the ignition (coil) and run the starter with the 12V battery.  It should spin over like crazy.  Remember it is positive ground so + to the block and - to the coil. 

 

(12V battery) + to the block; - to the starter switch, starter switch to the starter.

 

(6V battery) + to the block; - to the ignition switch, switch to the coil. (don't forget to turn the switch off or you will burn the points) (connections should match your Graham schematic)

 

I would connect the 12V battery to the starter with the plugs out and test how it turns over, you want to attack one problem at a time.

Next check spark/timing/points

Last fuel

 

She should fire up, two common Graham problems...first is the timing chain alignment (some people get it wrong) second is the distributer, when you install the cam you have to put the distributer drive +60 degrees to get it in the correct position or the distributor drive spins (inserting the cam) 60 degrees off #1 not a big problem.  Just check #1 to #1 cylinder and move the wires over as needed.

 

Good Luck

Well I managed to solve the starter problem as I mentioned above.  I got the engine cranking over very well.  But it still won't start even with primer gas in the cylinders.  I did hear the cylinders fire once, then nothing.  I will inspect the timing chain and timing settings soon.  If it still won't catch,  I would suspect it is fuel starved.  AS I have rebuilt the fuel pump and it seems to be working ok, can I assume that the carb is the last "culprit suspect"? 

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There is spark when I test it that way.  I will double check all plugs for spark and see that they are in the right order.  I do have some confusion about "retarding" vs "advancing" the spark when firing up. 

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There is spark when I test it that way.  I will double check all plugs for spark and see that they are in the right order.  I do have some confusion about "retarding" vs "advancing" the spark when firing up. 

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GOOD!  

 

Next test: Simple Timing Check

1. Pull the number 1 spark plug (closest to the fan, front of the engine)

2. Turn the engine over by hand till the piston is at the top of its travel (you should be able to see the piston or you can use a small screwdriver/wire to feel when it gets to the top; do not leave the object in the cylinder when you are turning I over)

3. Trace the spark plug wire back the distributer, note the position.  Remove the cap the rotor should be pointing to that position (#1).  

 

If it is one position off, rotate all the wires one position

 

Advance and retard is TDC this position "Top Dead Center".  Advance is before TDC; Retard is after TDC.  Advance you get more power, retard it is easier to start but less power.

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24 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

GOOD!  

 

Next test: Simple Timing Check

1. Pull the number 1 spark plug (closest to the fan, front of the engine)

2. Turn the engine over by hand till the piston is at the top of its travel (you should be able to see the piston or you can use a small screwdriver/wire to feel when it gets to the top; do not leave the object in the cylinder when you are turning I over)

3. Trace the spark plug wire back the distributer, note the position.  Remove the cap the rotor should be pointing to that position (#1).  

 

If it is one position off, rotate all the wires one position

 

Advance and retard is TDC this position "Top Dead Center".  Advance is before TDC; Retard is after TDC.  Advance you get more power, retard it is easier to start but less power.

Thanks.  I'm seriously considering buying a Carter BB1 carb that I saw for sale on ebay.  It is not completely rebuilt but cleaned up with new parts and just needs assembly.  A kit is included.  The option of sending my old Zenith away to get rebuilt won't be much less and I already tried to fix it with a kit but without much luck.  Some of the parts like the butterfly shafts got bent and the seals around the shafts are bad.  Since it's the "heart" of the fuel system, I'd like to have confidence that it's A-1. 

 

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/CARTER-BB-1-CARB/112633966202?hash=item1a3981ee7a:g:6uUAAOSwSrNaAv3f

 

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You want a BB1D (last round and best iteration)  I personally would not buy one without a tag, the tag is the carb identification. 

 

This one (112633966202) has the right mounting holes 2 11/16 and should have 1 1/4 throat.

 

If you put gas down the cylinder it should fire without a carburetor.

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7 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

You want a BB1D (last round and best iteration)  I personally would not buy one without a tag, the tag is the carb identification. 

 

This one (112633966202) has the right mounting holes 2 11/16 and should have 1 1/4 throat.

 

If you put gas down the cylinder it should fire without a carburetor.

I was able to get it to fire on each cylinder after I primed them.  Then it died I suspect from fuel starvation. 

 

I was looking at the BB1 earlier model and an old document said you needed an adapter to make it fit a Graham.  I guess the bolts were the right distance apart but the flange was not the right size.  With the BB1D it should mount ok with the 612?  I did find a real rusty one for only $199 and I could buy a rebuild kit.  This one has a weird "governor" on top that I could take off.  It does have it's tag. 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carter-BB1D-Carburetor-With-Monarch-Governor-Seagrave/132391296616?epid=2091782288&hash=item1ed322de68:g:qCAAAOSwyi9Z7kWr&vxp=mtr

 

Sorry to bug you so much but you really are being a big help.  I'm a newbie and nervous about the purchases.

 

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For my money, I would concentrate on what you have rather than introducing another set of difficulties with another unknown carburetor. I wouldn't think about something off a different application unless I knew what I was doing, in this case about what makes a carburetor work. A firetruck carb. is made for a completely different application. Once you have it running and assembled, then maybe think about improvements.

 

Have you done what Graham Man suggested? Please, one step at a time, methodically.

 

Then, if you loosen the fuel line at the carb and crank over, is it getting fuel? (it will leak!)

 

Is the fuel pump working? I assume it is the earliest AC type (model B), with a glass bowl. Is the glass bowl full of fuel? If not, it is not "sucking" fuel.

 

So then we have fuel at the carb. Have you set the float level correctly?

 

Just a note. With my 1930 Dodge Brothers 8, the best way to start cold is full choke, touch of hand throttle, crank. As soon as it catches, add a little bit of hand throttle and push the choke in a little bit. NO foot throttle - I tend to be a bit heavy on the pedal and it stalls. When it roughens, push the choke in further and compensate with hand throttle.

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1 minute ago, Spinneyhill said:

For my money, I would concentrate on what you have rather than introducing another set of difficulties with another unknown carburetor. I wouldn't think about something off a different application unless I knew what I was doing, in this case about what makes a carburetor work. A firetruck carb. is made for a completely different application. Once you have it running and assembled, then maybe think about improvements.

 

Have you done what Graham Man suggested? Please, one step at a time, methodically.

 

Then, if you loosen the fuel line at the carb and crank over, is it getting fuel? (it will leak!)

 

Is the fuel pump working? I assume it is the earliest AC type (model B), with a glass bowl. Is the glass bowl full of fuel? If not, it is not "sucking" fuel.

 

So then we have fuel at the carb. Have you set the float level correctly?

 

Just a note. With my 1930 Dodge Brothers 8, the best way to start cold is full choke, touch of hand throttle, crank. As soon as it catches, add a little bit of hand throttle and push the choke in a little bit. NO foot throttle - I tend to be a bit heavy on the pedal and it stalls. When it roughens, push the choke in further and compensate with hand throttle.

 

Hi Spinneyhill.  Yesterday after I got the starter cranking I took the fuel pump off and pumped it by hand several times.  It finally filled up the glass bowl all the way.  So I assumed it was pushing fuel into the carb.  I did rebuild the pump with a kit including a new diaphragm.  I tried to get it to turn over with priming but it only coughed and died after burning off the priming fuel.  I'm not sure how to set the float level.  Maybe tonight after I get home I'll pull the carb and take some detailed photos for you guys.  I'll also go over the ignition timing again. 

 

At least I had the joy of hearing the motor spinning under the power of the starter on the weekend!!!  You should have seen my  doing cartwheels after that.  My wife thinks I'm losing it.

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1 minute ago, GrahamPaige29 said:

My wife thinks I'm losing it.

 

:lol: If you are messing around with a car made in 1929, It's too late, you have already lost it! That is what my wife tells me anyway.:rolleyes:

 

Ref the fuel pump, don't tighten the stirrup holding the glass bowl too much. It will warp the top and the bowl won't seal against it = no fuel.

 

Here is The Carburetor Shop's Troubleshooting page. Go down to the bit about not starting.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Troubleshooting.htm#Acceleratorpumps

 

Try doing what you have been doing in a different way. You may have been rehearsing the wrong way and doing it differently will find that error.

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No you are not "loosing it"... sometimes it just takes time to get everything sorted out. 

Some people do jigsaw puzzles or collect stamps, we get to drive our hobby around.

 

I never use the gas tank and fuel pump to get a fresh project running.  I use a 1/2 gallon lawn mower tank, hang it on the firewall or something above the carburetor and let gravity do the work.  Remember to disconnect the fuel line to the pump first.

 

I had a fuel pump driving me crazy one time, rebuilt it several times, everything should have worked but it would still not run.  Finally out of despair I put an air line to the gas line from the carburetor to the tank and blew, nothing at first then it let go, something had blocked the fuel line or pick up, it had all been cleaned, still never figured out what it was, but it is still working two years later..... 

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26 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

 

:lol: If you are messing around with a car made in 1929, It's too late, you have already lost it! That is what my wife tells me anyway.:rolleyes:

 

Ref the fuel pump, don't tighten the stirrup holding the glass bowl too much. It will warp the top and the bowl won't seal against it = no fuel.

 

Here is The Carburetor Shop's Troubleshooting page. Go down to the bit about not starting.

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Troubleshooting.htm#Acceleratorpumps

 

Try doing what you have been doing in a different way. You may have been rehearsing the wrong way and doing it differently will find that error.

 

Haha I'm still married.  That's a good thing.  You just have to take your wife to dinner once in a while so she knows you're still alive.

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Hi guys. Took the carb apart again and gave it another cleaning. The only part I don’t get is the spring loaded brass piston.   At the bottom of the housing there seems to be some brass remnants of the old one. Is this part essential to the engine turning over or it it some kind of accelerator pump?  

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