November Bugle 2017

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 Willis said that the early years, the BCA was oriented towards " end of line " cars. Then Bill mentions the fear of pre war folks taking the club towards a "pre war" club. . The club I thought I was joining was a  "BUICK" club. Was I mis-informed?

 

  Ben

[NTX5467]

I concur that a beautiful setting to showcase some Beautiful Buicks would be neat . . . BUT it seems that many BCA (past or current?) members seem to have an orientation toward a "one stop shop" approach of the hotel/show field at the same place, not miles apart.  ONLY in certain parts of the country can that happen as newer hotels don't always have the necessary banquet and/or swap meet (indoor and outdoor) parking lot space and show field space in ONE spot.  Old hotel "convention centers" do better in these respects, but usually with higher room rates.  Some desire a grass show field, others asphalt or concrete.  And THEN there's the "damage" to the grass by the car tires and PEOPLE's feet!

 

When we were considering the second BCA meet we did, we had a particular host hotel that was going to let us have ALL of it for the meet.  There was a large grassy field on its west side, which would have had great sight lines to the nearby freeway (and the inflatable Tri-Shield display balloon).  But, it didn't have the needed banquet capabilities "in house", so we decided on returning to Plano instead.

 

I also strongly concur that the BOD should have a good degree of diversity in vehicle orientations, not "stacked" per se, such that MORE of the membership orientations are represented, rather than fewer.  It's bad enough that many chose to apply the "Antique" orientation to the BCA, then use it as a reason for them to NOT join or participate.  A BOD that represents the diversity of Buick owners/members should work best, by observation.  

 

NTX5467

[Larry Schramm]

22 hours ago, Bill Stoneberg said:

The problem with packing the BOD with Prewar members is that their is a chance of becoming a prewar Buick club instead of club that welcomes everyone. 

This happened to the Oldsmobile club and they went through rough times until the current president came in and was able to consolidate both the antique and the modern Oldsmobiles (their terminology, not mine).

 

I disagree.  Go back and read my editorial.  The current BOD is obsessed with judging and not welcoming all Buick owners.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Brad Conley]

10 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

I disagree.  Go back and read my editorial.  The current BOD is obsessed with judging and not welcoming all Buick owners.

 

With all due respect, I have to disagree a little Larry.  The current BOD did just recently approve a Performance Division that allows racing with insurance.  While that is not everyone's "cup of tea", it will bring more members into the club, members that pay dues and make the entire group stronger with diversified ideas and goals (and PEOPLE).  Take my word for it, a race car is defiantly NOT a show car.  I'm one of those young whipper-snapper guys that likes those sporty cars (I'll be 60 my next birthday) but I think all current BCA members will never find a better group of people than the racers.  I believe nearly all really appreciate a beautiful automobile, be it 10 or 100 years old.

[NTX5467]

11 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

The current BOD is obsessed with judging and not welcoming all Buick owners.

 

By nature, any competitive-oriented person will, somehow, try to prove how good they or their possessions are in comparison to others . . . by observation.  That's just human nature, some have it more than others.  Eventually, "contests" will happen, whether they be physical or achievements.  Hence, "judging".  

 

From my early days in the BCA, I wondered "WHY?? the group was not welcoming of newer Buicks into the judged shows?  By not welcoming the enthusiastic owners of newer Buicks (per the "Twelve Year Rule"), the club automatically alienated those new and usually energetic owners of new(er) Buicks.  Being shunned, they usually went out and formed their own Buick club or website.

 

When the Riviera was introduced, it was a neat car, but the BCA would not allow it into any shows, I suspect, due to it's "too new" status.  Same with the later "factory hot rods", and the Reattas . . . ALL of which ended up with their own respective national owner groups, outside of the BCA.  IF the BCA might have been more welcoming of these "new" Buicks, might those national groups have formed?  Or could the current ROA have been a "Riviera Division", as the Reatta Division became, of the BCA?

 

The "obsession with judging" is, to me, part of the deal of having a national group.  Recognition of having a really nice and/or restored Buick is part of that mix, too.  NOT unique to just Buick-marque events, either.  If some desire to participate, they can.  If not, they don't.  Yet it seems the 400 Point judged show is an additional revenue stream to help finance the meets, by observation.  The judged show is a draw for spectators and other Buick club members/enthusiasts.  The expansion of classes, from the first Driven Class to Archival, the expanded scope in the Divisions, and such expand the potential base of show participants and (hopefully) future BCA members.  More of "something for everybody" than just correctly-restored 400 Point Judged Show vehicles older than a particular age.

 

Therefore, the "members-only" aspect of things, in the earlier years, as to national show participation, seems to be a part of the BCA DNA, by design or otherwise.  BUT that doesn't always transfer to BCA members helping non-members with their car concerns or projects!  Sure, probably more than not, if somebody calls up with a Buick-related question, we'll do what we can to answer it or find somebody who can . . . or the best place to  sell a particular Buick that belonged to a family member.  That's what I do and suspect others will also.  I'm aware of the insurance issues with non-members participating in "members only" events.  Which raises the question of just how active the "Member-At-Large" program has been and how many new members it has brought into the organization?  Just curious.

 

As to how individual members promote and/or share their vehicular experiences with others?  Everybody has their own sensitivities on this issue, which must be respected.  AND can possibly vary with geographic location and population demographics.

 

"Judging" is a part of life.  Whether it be physical attributes of human beings, livestock, animals, cars, tractors, trucks, or school science projects.  Period.  The hobby is plenty big enough for those who willing participate in such things to do so and those who don't desire to, to not do it.  Everybody likes to be recognized for their achievements and accomplishments!  In a POSITIVE manner.  Judging awards are a positive reinforcement for these things.  Those who aspire to these things can do it, in the hopes of receiving an award, in the future.

 

By the same token, for every "obsession" there needs to be a counter-acting activity.  In this case, the non-400 Point Judged classes and such, for which participation recognitions are given.  "Thanks for Bringing YOUR Buick to the Meet", sort of things.  NOT to forget the Buick Driving Enthusiasts and their tours and such!

 

By observation, if the BCA is to be a Buick "Umbrella" organization, the size of that umbrella has grown quite a bit over the past 30 years!  The number of individual "niche" (not using that word in a bad way!) and specialty groups has grown significantly, which is good as more members network with others of similar interests (as to particular models model years of Buicks). 

 

The "problem" can come when the BCA sales pitch is activated too soon or at the wrong time in the budding relationship with potential new members.  The relationship MUST come first, trust must be gained, friendships must grow to the point that the potential new member WANTS to see what the BCA is all about.  Perhaps inviting them to a BCA National Meet would be in order, as a member's guest.  Let them SEE what it's all about and how much is really "out there" that they didn't know about!  Just telling them about these events might get them interested, but actually seeing it all happen in the light of day is much better.

 

And the size of the "circus" just keeps getting bigger and bigger . . .

 

NTX5467

 

 

[Terry Wiegand]

Brad, yes, the BOD did give the green light to racing events within the BCA and that action brought HIGHER insurance costs than previous policies.  We were told that this would bring more new members into the club that had performance vehicles per se.  As of today I have not heard of even ONE new race-minded Buick owner/enthusiast signing up in the BCA.  Were we sold a bill of goods? - you tell me.  Larry Schramm hit it right on the head with his editorial.  One cannot argue with the facts.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas 

[Barney Eaton]

Since Willis (NTX5467) is unknown to Mark Shaw,  I will introduce him to those outside Texas.

Willis Bell and Mike Middleton are Co-Directors of the South Central Region of the BCA.  Willis is lesser know outside Texas meets probably because he can seldom attends because he still works.

I enjoy reading his technical input on all sorts of subjects and they are in-depth and enlightening.

I too may not always agree with his personal opinions, likes and dislikes........but that can be said for many people we know.

 

 

[Smartin]

1 hour ago, Terry Wiegand said:

Brad, yes, the BOD did give the green light to racing events within the BCA and that action brought HIGHER insurance costs than previous policies.  We were told that this would bring more new members into the club that had performance vehicles per se.  As of today I have not heard of even ONE new race-minded Buick owner/enthusiast signing up in the BCA.  Were we sold a bill of goods? - you tell me.  Larry Schramm hit it right on the head with his editorial.  One cannot argue with the facts.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas 

 

Terry, this is uncharted territory for the club...for the new performance division, too.  We are working on the details of how this is all going to work out.  Don't expect it to happen overnight. 

 

By the way, signing the BPG onto the BCA as a division instantly grew the club by 55 members with the flick of a switch.  As soon as the details can get hammered out, you can expect many more.

[NTX5467]

Thanks for the kind words, Barney.  I need to also mention that my postings are my own orientations and observations and NOT to be perceived as speaking for anyone other than myself.  In addition to being Co-Chapter Director for the South Central Region, I'm also the elected Chapter Director of the North Texas Chapter and have been involved with both of the BCA National Meets we hosted in Plano, TX.  I'm also monitoring the progression of events related to the 2019 BCA National Meet, which our chapter is involved with, in OK.

 

My first BCA National Meet was the Buick75th Anniversary Meet in Flint.  My BCA and chapter memberships came a few months later, with my deeper involvement in the chapter about a year later.  I've monitored the BOD activities from those earlier times, as well as how things have progressed through the years and into the more current times.

 

My work is in the parts department of a GM dealership.  This is my 41st year there.  The dealership's current ownership started in 1970 with just Chevrolet and acquired B-O-P-GMC in the middle 1980s, with C in the 1990s.  I was initially concerned that being that close to "cars" for that many hours/day might lessen my attraction to and interest in them, but it went the other way.  MANY more doors into the many aspects of cars were opened, which has greatly expanded my knowledge from "just a car guy" to what it became.  

 

My favorite uncle always drove Oldsmobiles or Buicks.  The first Buick of his that I remember was a '60 LeSabre 4-dr sedan.  He was mechanically-inclined and we had some interesting talks.  My mother's sister and her husband came back from Newfoundland in '56 and stopped in Trenton, NJ to purchase a new '56 Special 2-dr sedan.  White over black with red interior.  A "base" model with no radio, but heater, wheel covers, and whitewalls.  Then came a '64 LeSabre (used), a new '68 LeSabre, and then a 1985 LeSabre.  Buicks all of their married lives.  When growing up back then, there were usually Buicks in the family, somewhere, or neighbors/friends had one, or both.   Be that as it may.

 

We each have our own unique prior history and orientations.  I understand that and take that into consideration when I see various statements being made.  I"ve determined that if you really want to see where "the smoke" is coming from, you have to get a few layers below the surface to see where the fire is really coming from AND can determine what started the fire in the first place.  These determinations don't come quick or easy, but over time, what started "the fire" will become apparent.  And THAT can indicate how to best proceed into the future, to make things better in the orientation of continuous improvement.

 

Y'all have fun whenever necessary!

 

Willis Bell  20811

[MCHinson]

I will take a chance and wade into this discussion a bit more. I have been an AACA member for over 20 years. We have a very active local AACA Chapter in my town. I have served for many years as an officer in that chapter, having held every elective office in the chapter more than once. I am also a member of several other AACA Regions. I serve as a AACA Judge and am a Certified Team Captain. I am a Moderator here on the Forum and have served as the editor of the Rummage Box, a publication of the AACA Publications Committee, for the past two years.  

 

I have been a BCA member for about 4 years. I joined the BCA after I bought a 1954 Buick. I later sold the 1954 Buick after I bought a 1937 Buick Century. At that time, I joined the 36-38 Buick Club, a Division of BCA. For the past two years, I have been the webmaster and newsletter editor of the Torque Tube II of the 36-38 Buick Club. I have never attended a BCA National Meet. 

 

There are many AACA events in my area each year. There are usually multple AACA Chapter events each month in my own town. There are basically no BCA events in my general area. We have an informal  "Buick owner's group" within our AACA Chapter. The group typically meets once every two months in a member's garage where we help each other work on any problems that members have with their Buick. This group has not been interested in becoming a formal group or a part of BCA, although most of the group's members are members of BCA. 

 

At least for me, BCA membership basically means I have an expensive magazine subscription. I have some BCA friends that I have met through either the forum, the 36-38 Buick Club, or from meeting them at a BCA gathering in Charlotte at an AACA meet or whom I have met at other AACA events. Nobody has really "sold" me on anything that BCA has to offer me enough to make me interested in traveling any substantial distance to attend a BCA National Meet. If one is ever held again in North Carolina or an adjacent state, I will certainly try to attend.

 

I get the impression, right or wrong, that there is more animosity between different "factions" within BCA than there are in AACA. After having taken a car through AACA Judging all the way through Repeat Senior Grand National, I am now more interested in Touring than car shows. I am currently restoring a 1938 Buick Century. I suspect I will take through the AACA Judging system. I think that the large presence of AACA here in NC as well as the large number of AACA events here in the area make it difficult for me to see BCA as being anything near the level of AACA for me personally. I understand that other areas of the country have different experiences due to the different concentration of local regions of different clubs.

 

I am more interested in Pre-war Buicks than anything else. A 1937 Buick sedan was the first antique car that I fell in love with. I was in my 20s in the early 1980's and I could not interest the owner in selling it. I vowed that one day I would own a 1937 Buick. It took my many years to make that happen, but after owning a lot of different antique cars, I bought the 1937 Buick and have no intention of ever selling it. I have owned a number of Rivieras over the years, mostly 1981-1985 but I also bought a new 1986 Riviera. While I loved the 1986 Riviera, it was a new car. I cannot understand the idea of buying a new car and joining a club based on ownership of a new car. I understand that the local Mustang club tried to gain members by getting the local Ford Dealer to pay for all purchasers of new Mustangs to become members of the Mustang Club. Now a majority of that club is made up of owners of new Mustangs and the club no longer has much interest in the "old" Mustangs. That has nearly destroyed that club. I guess they are trying to sell ownership of a Mustang as being a "lifestyle". I don't see ownership of a Buick as being my lifestyle. I like antique cars and happen to prefer antique Buicks. While my "modern" car is also a Buick, I don't consider it a car for hobby participation. I don't know what the best idea is, but I like AACA's 25 year rule. A case could probably be made for a different number of years, but I think it is a good compromise. 

 

 

 

[Booreatta]

OH good heavens  the parking issue will not be settled in our lifetime  The guys that like the pre-war cars will always want the pre-war cars to have the focus in the BCA.. The guys that think the 50s and 60s will not change their focus and the newer cars will always like the newer cars. The guys that like hotrods etc wont belong to the BCA OR AACA. Now for the problems of membership that most clubs are having issues with is clubs like the Goodguys and the NSRA and clubs that are not tied to a brand or condition. Clubs like the Goodguys and  alike are growing by leaps and bounds. I think that  there is a lot of respect for builders of hot rods because only talent and ability comes into play.  Both production and hotrods are expensive to build but there is very few "rules" to build a hot rod.  What really boils down to is pre-war cars will not have the following that the 50s have and the 50s wont have the following that the 60s have. I belong to the BCA, AACA,GOODGUYS,NSRA,MUSTANG CLUB, FALCON CLUB and several others. Simply put, in most cases people will restore and drive what was hot in their youth.. Performance car owners most likely never restore a Ford Falcon so the answer to the BCA and single branded cars will all have the same problems..AACA will have a better rate of membership gains than the BCA. I had thought the RIviera club would be a natural for the BCA to serve as the parent club as the hand writing is on the wall. There no new Rivieras being made thus growth is slower than in some clubs like the AACA. Non Branded clubs that don't have the constraints like the NSRA etc will continue to grow at a faster rate. Bottom line the hot rod clubs will continue to trump the Branded Clubs

My first car was a Buick but I have had hand in several performance builds over the years and I loved them all. My son built a Fiero and swapped out the 2.8  for a 350 Chevy while it is a cool car the Pontiac guys don't think it is a Pontiac anymore. The hot rod guys think it cool. I gave him 90 Reatta Coupe but he wont join the BCA because he has no peers in the club. Surprise Surprise

I'm afraid some of the clubs are around now,  will they still be here in 20 years..If some of us "older guys" don't think outside of the box we will all be in museums wondering what happened. If we have no more vision than worry about where to park  and other issues of the day it will still be a big world but our piece of world will continue to shrink

Ok its open for discussion and time will tell in 20 years who was right

By the way I have seen a lot of trailer queens and I would love to  have one, I totally understand the thinking. keep preserving the good old cars the world needs them. I have served on the BCA board and I love this club but I also belong to the AACA and have never been to a meet..That is still on the bucket list. I have attended the Chevrolet Nationals, Mustang Club and Falcon Club. Next summer the  Oldsmobile club will be in Wichita Kansas and you can bet I will be there

 

 

[38Buick 80C]

3 hours ago, MCHinson said:

I get the impression, right or wrong, that there is more animosity between different "factions" within BCA than there are in AACA.

 

And there in lies the problem with the forum...most BCA members have a great time at the National meet regardless of who what when where why...

[MCHinson]

7 hours ago, Booreatta said:

 Simply put, in most cases people will restore and drive what was hot in their youth.

 

 

 

I don't think that the demise of the hobby is on the horizon as much as you seem to imply. People have been predicting that since at least the 1950's.

 

I got in the hobby when I was in my 30's. While I think that while there is certainly some truth in your statement, it is no longer as valid as it once might have been. Have you seen any Model T club activities lately? There are large groups of teens, 20 year olds and 30 year olds who have been attracted to Model T Fords. There is a growing group of young people who like the earlier cars. I was born in 1960 and while I have owned cars from the 1920's-1980's, my favorites car is a 1937 Century and I am currently restoring a 1938 Century. I used to think that it was odd that I liked cars much older than I am, but now I am seeing that maybe I was just a little bit ahead of my time.

[Barney Eaton]

Demise........not possible as long as there are people in their garage/shop with wrenches in their hands.....they will find something to fix.

[MCHinson]

I also personally prefer a printed magazine to an electronic magazine. I really think that BCA moving from 12 to 6 issues per year would enable the club to have a better chance at survival long term. I also realize that many BCA members don't share my opinion, and feel that by even mentioning any such change I am likely to alienate some people. If I received 6 rather than 12 magazines from BCA at a more reasonable cost of membership, it would make me happier. I suspect that the cost factor is influencing the lower number of members in the club.

 

I have recently made a decision to drop my membership in MAFCA after a couple of decades. I have not owned a Model A Ford now for a couple of years but maintained that membership, but with the latest price increase in that club, I am finally going to give that one up. I suspect that there might be some BCA members who might feel the same way about BCA. 

[Booreatta]

Matt I didn't mean to imply the demise of car collectors or restores, I only can see the shift in what people collect, drive. The statement about dropping membership in the model A club is the point I was trying to make. There are reasons that people do not maintain membership be it they no longer own a car, they get to old to enjoy club stuff, they die, other things are more important in their lives. I am amazed just how many cars are in garages. I know of 9 old Collector cars in a 2 block neighborhood where I live and most are in good shape and could be back on the road with very little work. Last summer I purchased one Reatta that was in a garage for 20 years. All it really needed was a fuel pump and it runs great. The other car in the garage was an old 50s Plymouth convertible. There is also a 64 Buick convertible that has not been out of the garage in 30 years. I talked to the owner and tried to get him to join the BCA but he has no interest in joining the club or getting the car back on the road. On the other hand there are another several HOT ROD type cars and they are on the road every week end in nice weather. 

Back to the point I was trying to make, the car culture is not dying it is just changing. Why some clubs are getting bigger and some are shrinking and that seems to be the trend.  all of the shows that I go to will bear that out. Modified or rods will out number the end of production cars and I don't see that changing any time soon

DEMISE NO CHANGE YES ITS A FACT OF LIFE. BCA and other similar clubs will need to think out side the box to continue to grow.

 

[Bhigdog]

I've been following this thread but I haven't contributed anything because I my BCA membership has expired and it didn't seem kosher to horn in.

But on the off chance I might shed some insights I'll speak up.

I offer no magic bullet or solutions. All I can do is tell my tale vis-a-vis the BCA.

I joined the club about 1998 because I bought a 55 Buick that needed some work. I figured the club would be a good source of information. Since it was really before the internet, club membership except in a few cases  was of little help. The process of info exchange was too slow and tedious.

The main benefit of membership was the Bugle and info on where shows and events were happening.

Over the years those benefits were less important as the internet filled those needs.

When the dues rose to $50 the cost/benefit  ratio swung into negative territory.  For me the only really tangible benefit was the Bugle and while well done just wasn't worth $50/yr.

Actually now  the biggest source of Buick info and help is right here on the forum. The flow of help and info is almost instant . So.... and don't shoot the messenger, the Bugle has been relegated to nice to have but not really necessary status.

Last year when the Nats were held at Allentown I joined for that year but it was just to join the show. Unless the club changes in a way that adds value to me it's unlikely I'll re-up.

On a personal note I find the squabbling about who parks where, and next to who, a bit silly. There are larger issues that need addressing. The best Nats ever, in my opinion, was the first Flint show. Not judged and if I remember the parking was loosely defined.

If I were asked what two things the club should do is try to make the Bugle more informative with technical articles, tips, history pieces etc etc etc. I know, it's easy to say maybe not so easy to do 12 times a year. I'm thinking a value added magazine delivered 6 times a year would be better received.

I'd also suggest grouping the judged cars at shows and let everyone else park where ever they liked. 

There's something neat and friendly about a whole bunch of randomly assembled Buicks.

In closing and thinking of this forum perhaps a way could be found to either increase the member's awareness of it or maybe  better yet an all inclusive Club forum/news letter  that every member would get via email maybe every other week.

Thanks for your patience.............................Bob

 

[jscheib]

I'll keep this short, but responded to Bob's last (and actually it is a response to a lot of post on this thread0, just how is going to generate this newsletter, and create some of these other ideas?  Any volunteers?  I rest my case, for now.

 

John

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, jscheib said:

Any volunteers?  I rest my case, for now.

 

 

"Aye, there's the rub.".............Will S.

 

 

[Thriller]

Perhaps I'm in a different league or something, but I don't get the cost discussion. A 20 gallon gas tank costs more to fill than a one year membership, to say nothing of parts and maintenance. We are in an expensive hobby. Some may be more cost-conscious than others but ultimately it's an individual decision based on a value proposition. If one sees a $50 value, they will take it. 

 

You'd be hard-pressed to cut costs by eliminating or simplifying the Bugle and still manage to maintain, let alone grow, membership numbers.

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Thriller
Typo (see edit history)

[jscheib]

I agree with Thriller about the expense.  Most 30-40 people I know spend that much ($50.) for coffee every two weeks.

 

John

[MCHinson]

Personally, I suggested that the club would be more viable long term with 6 issues of the Bugle per year instead of 12. I don't see the need for additional volunteers because I see no reason for any other type of communication on the other 6 months. Personally, I would love to receive 6 issues and those issues come on alternating months from AACA's Antique Automobile. That would give me one of the two publications on alternating months. It could be a major cost savings for BCA which could be passed on to the membership through lower membership costs.

 

The problem is not that membership costs $50. The problem is it costs $50 for this club and like probably almost every member I am a member of multiple clubs instead of just one club. If I add up all of the membership fees that I pay for different car clubs, I would not be happy with how much I am spending on it. I think that it is certainly a potential deal breaker for both younger people just getting into the hobby as well as some retired members on fixed incomes. I recently received an email from a retired member of the 36-38 Buick Club who have said that he loves our newsletter, but he just can't afford to pay all of the dues that he is paying to different clubs and need to cut back. 

 

My son and daughter have both been active in the antique car hobby. My son is out on his own now and my daughter is in college. Based on my personal experience, I would say that $50 for joining any individual car club would be a bit difficult for either of them at their current stage of life. It will be quite a few years before college loans are paid off and they feel like dropping that sort of cash on joining a club.  

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

9 hours ago, Thriller said:

Perhaps I'm in a different league or something, but I don't get the cost discussion. A 20 gas tank coast more to fill than a one year membership, to say nothing of parts and maintenance. We are in an expensive hobby. Some may be more cost-conscious than others but ultimately it's an individual decision based on a value proposition. If one sees a $50 value, they will take it. 

 

You'd be hard-pressed to cut costs by eliminating or simplifying the Bugle and still manage to maintain, let alone grow, membership numbers.

 

 

 Hey, I am slow again!   Pretty much what I was going to write. Thanks, Derek.  

  Every time the cost of membership comes up, I think about the cups of exotic coffee some drink.  The cigarettes some smoke. The alcohol some drink.   Non of which are as good for us as our BCA membership.  And then complain about a $10 or $15  DIFFERENCE in YEARLY membership fees. Geeezz!  

 

  Thanks, Brian, for your thread.

 

  Ben

[Barney Eaton]

This was added by mistake...I was thinking about the Sept 2017 issue on Board expenses reimbursement.

I started to remove it.....but it might be informative to some newer members.

 

It appears the discussion has circled around the original post and only addressed the raise in reimbursement to Board members once or twice.

It might be a little strong, but isn't the original point "how much do we have to pay Board members to volunteer?"

Look at your old Bugles and find the BCA treasures from about 2003 until 2010 and they will tell you about the financial state of the BCA during that time.

We don't want that to happen again and the question is the Chicken and the egg......which happened first, In our case will it be..........

* loss of members/not enough dues or

* overspending

BCA members do not see the detailed expenses, most of which are legitimate and proper.

I don't recall the exact percentage, but the Bugle expenses are about 75-80% of the BCA budget.  There were some experiments back before 2010 with the Bugle, more or less pages, more or less color.

Also the administration of the Bugle changed, reducing cost for printing and other things.  That is around the time that Pete Phillips raised his hand and said he would like to give it a try.

What a great decision that was.....

Hopefully we have a Board and Treasurer that is remembering where we were and watching spending closely........maybe the Board expense reimbursement increase will be a non-issue.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Barney Eaton (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

19 minutes ago, Barney Eaton said:

.....maybe the Board expense reimbursement increase will be a non-issue.

 

 

 

 

 

  As it should be!

 

  Ben

[JohnD1956]

39 minutes ago, Barney Eaton said:

It appears the discussion has circled around the original post and only addressed the raise in reimbursement to Board members once or twice.

 

 

Barney, that may be because the expense reimbursement issue was last month's issue of the day ( Sept Bugle discussion).

 

When I hear the thought that reducing the dues will potentially increase membership,  I wonder how that could be?  As Ben said, the increase was $15.00 per year.  Now it seems some think the dues were raised by $50.00 for the year.  This $15.00 increase likely resulted in some Members having that "good reason" to leave the Club. But who among us lives in an area where the cost of living has not gone up?  Regardless of what's claimed to be low inflation, has anyone gone to the grocery store in the last 3 months?  If prices are not up, quantity is down.  If quantity is down undoubtedly some  will think quality is down too, and more will have that "good reason" to leave the Club.

 

People do not join for their own reasons, but I doubt it's because they cannot find $50.00.  Just last night, when I went to the convenience store to buy my daily lotto tickets, I saw one of the grocery store clerks who bought a package of Oreo cookies.  Although she could have bought the exact same package at the store where she works for $2.50 she paid over $4.00 for that package.  I could not help but to point that out to her, and she said " Yeah!", shrugged her shoulders and off she went. People find the money when they want something.  If we want them, we have to offer what they want.      

[Brian_Heil]

How did we get off on a 6 issue per year Bugle tangent?  Is the thought the 6 issue/year would enable the annual dues to be lowered so more would join?

 

I'm not so sure that is the way to grow the club with additional members who are only signing up because the annual dues and magazine count both went down.

 

I'm with Thiller, the least of my worries in my budget is the $50 annual dues.  Anybody put three kids through college lately, had real work done on their car like an engine rebuild or a paint job or pay for a kids wedding?  Ouch.

 

All of you, yes all of you, and this Club are a bargain at $50.  The National Meet, local meets, Tours and Bugle are the icing.

 

Love the Bugle, it is in part what makes this Club great.  Yay for Pete while I'm at it.

 

Not sure how much P.R. the club does promoting itself.  The BCA sure as heck is not broke if you read the non profit tax filing info. so before we cut magazine count and dues to draw in some individuals, maybe we look at some better or additional P.R. for the club.

 

Who can accurately comment on what P.R. we currently do? 

 

 

[MCHinson]

At the risk of upsetting a few people even more...

 

If I understand correctly, there is a pattern that the club's membership has been declining for some period of time. The club is the only car club that I am aware of that still publishes 12 magazines per year and seems to be determined to do that forever. I don't know if that is a viable long term position for the club. 

 

I guess I may be one of the few BCA members on the forum who is an "average member" of BCA instead of a more involved member of BCA. For me, membership in BCA is essentially a magazine subscription. If you want to encourge the average members to get more involved you have to keep them interested but you can't scare them off with the price of the magazine. If the club were to cut back to 6 issues per year, with a lower "subscription price", the club would likely attract a larger number of "subscribers". The subscribers' payments should cover the cost of the magazine and subsidize the additional activities of the club. Even Reader's Digest cut back from 12 issues per year to, if I recall correctly, 11. I don't even remember how many issues of that magazine that I receive. When it comes, I read it. When it does not come, I don't really think much about it.

 

While there are certainly active enthusiastic BCA members who are active in the club's events, the fact is that most BCA members never attend club events and simply read the magazine. The dues from those average members are needed to help finance the club. If you could decrease costs to the club per member with fewer issues of the magazine and increase the number of those average members, the club would be in better shape to do more for the active members. 

 

AACA has more members but the same thing is true for AACA as well. AACA's "average" members simply read the magazine and never participate in National AACA events. We have many AACA local chapter and region events in my area of the country, so I am able to be more active in AACA than I am in BCA. The two clubs each have their own strong and weak points. How you experience different car clubs depends a lot on where you live. There are very different experiences of different clubs in different areas. 

   

[Larry Schramm]

Since the question of finances came up, the real question to ask the board and publish the number is how much money "is in the bank" 

 

What is the amount of money that is being carried over every year and how money was brought in from the national meet and what were the total expenses?

 

Has money been made or lost to be made up by the general fund for say the last five meets. 

 

  This information might be of value to have a better discussion on dues, #magazine issues, and any other issues.

 

Just IMO.

[Larry Schramm]

7 hours ago, Brian_Heil said:

How did we get off on a 6 issue per year Bugle tangent?  Is the thought the 6 issue/year would enable the annual dues to be lowered so more would join?

 

I'm not so sure that is the way to grow the club with additional members who are only signing up because the annual dues and magazine count both went down.

 

I'm with Thiller, the least of my worries in my budget is the $50 annual dues.  Anybody put three kids through college lately, had real work done on their car like an engine rebuild or a paint job or pay for a kids wedding?  Ouch.

 

All of you, yes all of you, and this Club are a bargain at $50.  The National Meet, local meets, Tours and Bugle are the icing.

 

Love the Bugle, it is in part what makes this Club great.  Yay for Pete while I'm at it.

 

Not sure how much P.R. the club does promoting itself.  The BCA sure as heck is not broke if you read the non profit tax filing info. so before we cut magazine count and dues to draw in some individuals, maybe we look at some better or additional P.R. for the club.

 

Who can accurately comment on what P.R. we currently do? 

 

 

 

Basic marketing 101 is who is your target market which includes all of their demographic characteristics. 

 

Real basic questions are what is the product or service that you are trying to sell to the prospective customer?  Does the Buick Club know what the real product or service that they are promoting?? The one that customer is willing to pay for?  I am not sure.

 

Are sales going up or down? (ie, more or less members, NET #)  Rate of increase or decline?  This is a critical determinant because if sales go down then the product / service is not what the customer wants and or there is a better product in the market place.  This could also be influenced by economic conditions and individual situations.  The aggregate of the individual experiences becomes the demographic classes.

 

Is there an elastic or inelastic demand for the product/service based on price?  The best example of this for the car makers is as long as the price of gasoline is less than about US$4.00/gallon customers want trucks & sport utility vehicles. If it goes above US$4.00 smaller cars become desirable.  For years, gasoline producers thought that they could charge any price for fuel and consumers would buy it.  Maybe a little less as the price went up but still sell lots of it regardless of the price.  The first time gas went over US$4.00 and the fuel sales hit the wall was an awakening for many industries besides the automakers and fuel companies.

 

 As the current $50.00 year annual dues being high, low, or just the right amount, many of you might want to go look at the data.  The stock market is up for the last year but wages have remained stagnant for almost a decade according to the information that I have seen. Discretionary income has been squeezed.

 

Also,  is the product that you are selling a necessity or a luxury.  I define necessity as food, clothing, shelter, and some form of transportation. Basic economics that that I took in 4th grade through graduate school.  Everything else is a luxury.  Luxury items are paid out of discretionary income.  I would put the club dues as a luxury item. 

 

For many of us, we are fortunate to have the means to pay the $50.00.  That is not the case with the majority of the population.  If you want some of the data on income/savings/etc let me know or do some searches on income, savings, # of persons paying taxes, on welfare or some other government payments.

 

If you re-read my editorial that is why I am so pro-park by year with every car in each year sitting next to another including the Buick in tough shape brought by a person of modest means next to the judged show car with which the owner has copious amount of money to make each nut & bolt correct. (ps: I worked in the GM assembly plants and no cars came out "perfect") I was also a service rep and inspected a lot of those cars that came out of the factory and talked to 1,000's of customers about their cars.

 

To be successful we need to become more welcoming and less elitist about having the perfect car. 

 

Like what has been attributed to Einstein,  "Insanity is continuing to do the same thing expecting a different result"

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I agree with most of what Larry just posted.  I do think that we should be careful about "giving the customer what they want" though.  I THINK the reason for the BCA [ the club] is for folks who enjoy [ like. love] Buicks  to have a way to communicate with others.  If that is not what John Q Public wants, so be it.  

 

  Ben

[BUICK RACER]

Like Larry said it's Marketing 101, he's been there done that so what he is saying makes sense but unfortunately it's not easy in the world today. We are what we want to be, not always what we should want to be, the easy way seems to prevail!  Take a kid to a car show, a race track, and a car parts store! and then take 'em for a ride, or let 'em drive, be brave!

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

I agree with most of what Larry just posted.  I do think that we should be careful about "giving the customer what they want" though.  I THINK the reason for the BCA [ the club] is for folks who enjoy [ like. love] Buicks  to have a way to communicate with others.  If that is not what John Q Public wants, so be it.  

 

  Ben

 

"If that is not what John Q Public wants, so be it." 

 

If you do not provide a product that the customer will buy you will eventually be out of business to competitors that do provide what they want.  Old adage in business if you are not growing, you are dying.

 

Then we will become irrelevant.  Think Kresges, Woolworths, BlockBuster, and the list of non existent enterprises goes on.

 

On the car side, think Packard, Kissel, Rambler, Duesenberg, Cord, Auburn, Nash, and the other 200 + marquis that are no longer around.  They did not give the public what they wanted or could afford.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Sorry, Larry. I did not mean it in the same way.  Perhaps it would have been better to say lets don't dilute it just to grow. I would be disappointed if the BUICK club of America tried being all things to all people just to get members.  When that is done, pretty soon the reason for being can dwindle away. 

 

  Ben

[NTX5467]

Perhaps my memory is still a little looonnnnggggg, BUT so many of these issues have been AND were discussed something like 10 years ago!  Membership costs, BUGLE costs, membership levels, other expenses.  YIKES!!!  And can't forget the "parking issue",. either.  In other words, we've been through almost ALL of this before, just different posters this time.  Please forgive me for my memory being so long.

 

Membership costs.  Back when it was about $30.yr, with a somewhat mediocre magazine (compared to now), BCA membership for many was a "magazine subscription".  When the BCA proposed to decrease the quality and such of the magazine, or raise dues to keep it where it was, the membership voted to approve the additional $5.00/yr by a significant margin.  "Don't mess with The BUGLE" was the message.  

 

6 Issues of "The Bugle", but thicker?  The current size, number of pages, AND full color came about through cost reductions and better management of the product.  Plus considering the postage and mailing-prep costs.  It been my personal experience that in order to make this or any organization really viable is to keep publications in front of the membership, so they don't lose focus or "thinking about" the group.  6 issues allows that losing focus to happen, from what I've seen with the car clubs I'm in.  A sure way to lose members is for them to find other places to be interested in Buicks (or other brands, too).   Same at the chapter level, but that can vary with the orientation and such of EACH particular BCA chapter, by observation.

 

Membership levels will rise and fall, as they have, and the BCA BOD made decisions as to how much to spend for what each time.  I believe the BCA has sufficient reserves to take it through some rough spots, but why should the BCA lose money just because it can?  I feel they've done a decent job in the financial area.

 

Membership costs are aggravated by adding the local chapter dues into the mix.  Many don't understand that, especially the "free-range" people who are in a local non-national-club group.  Then quote them membership fees and they decide they don't need the BCA, per se, but they like other things about the club.  It gets back to "perceived value" by the "outside" person.  

 

Some national clubs have regional "national" events.  Want to go to California rather than Georgia to a national meet?  Sure  Want to do both?  Sure!  Yet the BCA has one consolidated national meet.  How much is it worth to you to see some of the finest Buicks on the planet?  We know that a particular national meet placement will attract participants and spectators from the 5 surrounding states, generally, especially cars, but people can appear from the entire world, if they desire.

 

The AACA is one magnificent vehicle owner group.  They have accomplished things which other groups will probably never approach achieving.  But the AACA is not a marque-specific group, and that is probably their key to success.  Pare things down to just one marque, and things change as to what can and should be done to keep the particular group alive and viable.  But that doesn't mean that everything the AACA does is the best that can be done with respect to single marques, necessarily. The AACA might possibly be a little more lenient in judging issues than the BCA, which some might like better, for various reasons.  The "leniences" might better reflect "real world" in respect to readily-available parts rather than not?  The expectation can be that IF you desire to see "the best" of the marque, you need to attend the marque club's national meet, but this can be variable in some cases.  

 

Speaking to the "magazine subscription" and content, Pete has tried to feature one particular car each month (for several years).  The article on that particular Buick is very well-written and highly accurate.  Plus the "What to look for . . ." sections, which you probably won't find anywhere else!  Technical articles as they are received or self-generated.  His coverage of varied Buicks might not click with everybody each month, but use these articles to learn about OTHER Buicks than your own desired "area of specialization" and horizon-expansion, and you'll have a better feel for the total Buick brand, I suspect.

 

Obviously, the BCA has made progress over the past 30+ years I've been a member.  GREAT progress in many areas!  Yes, costs have increased to finance that progress, too.  Even when the national dues were $25/yr and they needed to be $30/yr, there was "talk" about that being too much.  Some members didn't renew as a result.  But here we are decades later saying the same thing about $50/yr being too much?  We've only got THREE BCA chapters within the boundaries of TX, but many more AACA chapters in North TX alone!  ALL good people who like their particular vehicles!  BUT the observed membership of all of these clubs is "graying".  A somewhat universal issue for some clubs and membership demographics.  

 

On to other things!

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

"Antique = 25+ years old . . .":  That's the definition of an "antique vehicle", although some states now define it as "35 years old".  And that "word" can tell some people, right away, that they desire to "be somewhere else".

 

In the vehicles we generally perceive as "antique", the interior trim was a mix of painted/coated metal, upholstered seats, covered cardboard door panels, and cloth headliners.  All reasonably easy to replace.  Then came padded instrument panels, foam-backed fabric headliners, molded carpets, etc.  As these later things age, they can deteriorate and break.  In the 1980s, "soft trim" expanded to many other places on the interior.  Some of it didn't weather very well, by observation.

 

From the perspective of vehicle uses, there ARE owners of more current production vehicles who absolutely LOVE them AND did form regional/national clubs for these newer vehicles, as a result.  I know that might seem ghastly to some, but it's been happening that way for years!  Even fwd vehicles, too!  Imports and domestics.  Many in the "antique" side of the hobby are unknowing of these things, due to their focus on "antique" vehicles.  NOTHING wrong with that, or those that like newer vehicles, either!

 

For example, if one might chose to look, there are forums and clubs for Chrysler LH cars, the current LX cars, 300Ms, etc.  For many years, there have been a multitude of forums and owner groups (usually younger people) for many fwd GM cars (Cavaliers, GrandAms, Grand Prix, and Regal GS), all with forums and message boards.  And a national club for the Meyers Manx dune buggy vehicles, too!  All kinds of car clubs which have Internet presences (message boards, online groups, forums) for contact with others of similar interests and exchange of information.  It's all there, and for "used cars" of recent vintage.  The cars they own will be "future collectibles" and "future antiques".  Ensuring those vehicles "make it that far" means there has to be some efforts made to preserve them in one form or another, early on, rather than waiting to 12 years or 25 years to decide they are worth saving, while they ARE still worth saving.  

 

I know my orientations and observations are different than some others, which I fully understand and appreciate, BUT if you're going to get younger people into "the hobby", you do it on THEIR terms and vehicles rather than YOUR terms and such.  That means maintaining their enthusiasm for THEIR cars, early on.  Giving them a reason to take better care of it rather than use it as an appliance and such.

 

Where most of this "young energy" is can be in the more sporty "youth market" vehicles.  Mustangs, Camaros, etc.  There are clubs for each generation of Camaro, national meets included.  Many are "show and race", rather than just static displays for awards.  Many are "Internet-based" in particular areas.

 

Key thing is that if there IS or WAS a vehicle manufactured, there probably is some sort of club/owner group for it.  How many times they might meet (locally, regionally, or nationally) can vary with the particular group.  Electronic communications are usually how they communicate, or by a printed document every so often, just depends on what works best for them, at the particular time of their development.

 

Every car owner needs to find the particular group they feel most comfortable with, join, and participate as possible.  If they have multiple interests and can afford multiple club memberships/activities, all the better!  But, there will probably need to be some prioritization in this aspect of things.  That's where things can get tricky!  AND, there are some owners who have no real interest in being in a club devoted to their cherished vehicle, too!

 

Everybody enjoy whenever necessary!  Onward and UPward into an uncertain future!

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

13 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

 

Then we will become irrelevant.  Think Kresges, Woolworths, BlockBuster, and the list of non existent enterprises goes on.

 

On the car side, think Packard, Kissel, Rambler, Duesenberg, Cord, Auburn, Nash, and the other 200 + marquis that are no longer around.  They did not give the public what they wanted or could afford.

 

In relation to the former retailers, I suspect their customer demographic went away, with no new consumers to take their place.  The old "If it ain't broke . . . ." orientation was crumbling, unfortunately.  In the case of BlockBuster, the electronic media/Internet/CD proliferation snowballed over them.  "Tapes" suddenly lost favor for new media.  They didn't seem to adjust fast enough and financial issues loomed.  The fickle consumer struck again.

 

As to the named car companies, many were smaller and didn't have the financial resources (or availability thereof) to fund new models as their customer base would have desired.  For example, as USA brands offered more glitz and sophistication, in the case of AMC, AMC vehicles were much more basic in design, by comparison.  I suspect for each of the former nameplates, then an economic downturn happened and they became a part of it.  I suspect they were refining what had worked for them but didn't forecast the future very well, if at all.

 

"Giving the public what it wants" can lead a company down the wrong path, though.  INTERPRETATION of what the customer wants, not just looking at the surface information alone, can be $$$ wasted.  In the Lutz book "GUTS", I believe, he talked about product research on minivans, at the time that Chrysler was very successful.  "Cup Holders" were a key thing, at that time.  They asked people at large new car events if they would like more cup holders in their minivans.  Of course, they said "Yes".  When asked if they'd pay $25 ( believe) more for a vehicle with those additional cup holders.  "No".  So, some care of interpretation is needed before jumping into that hole.

 

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

In our North Texas Chapter, we had an energized Membership Director at the time and we did give new BCA members in our area a 6 month complimentary membership in the chapter.  Many older members complained, which I was able to calm down with a "marketing approach" orientation.  They wanted ALL new members to pay dues as they did.  Unfortunately, there were not many who later purchased chapter memberships.  Usually due to distances from the chapter, I suspect.  Having tried that for a few years with little success, it quietly went away.  Can we send them a "Welcome Letter"?  Surely. Do we ever get any inquiries from them?  Usually, they come to us first, then to the BCA, if we get any new members locally.  That's been our experience.  I'm sure others might have had different results.

 

ONE noted reason for staying monthly AND for the E-BUGLE IS the classified ads.  BUICK-SPECIFIC classified ads!  IF you buy "Hemmings Motor News" for several months, you've accumulated LOTS of non-Buick-related ads for how much money?  The E-BUGLE is less money, but allows ALL possible BCA members, internationally, to have the ads in a timely manner world-wide as the local USA members.  

 

Willis Bell  20811

[NTX5467]

Over the years, the BCA has sent the chapters marketing materials to hand out at car shows and other places.  Other groups have had business cards for the members.  Seemed like we did that to, locally.  Unless the potential prospect has a real need for "us", they keep doing what THEY have been doing.  And this can be a local/regional/area thing, by observation.  As different chapters do different things that the membership desires to do.  Not everybody has members who have interesting "places" to see of investigate that can comfortably host 20+ people for a meeting.  Our chapter has a few, who have hosted us from time to time, with good results, but these meetings usually require an hour's drive for many.  In an area of increasing traffic density, so driving an older vehicle is not always the best thing to do.

 

Other new members might desire to go to a chapter meeting and see lots of older Buicks in the parking lot, not newer cars.  The "antique car club" orientation again?  Many don't seem to want to admit that the "by definition antique" vehicles now include cars from the 1970s and newer.

 

The "division" orientation of the BCA has allowed the membership to become more diverse and somewhat specialized, past just the volunteer product specialists listed in THE BUGLE.  The "umbrella" becomes more segmented and larger.

 

I personally feel that Pete, Cindy, and crew do an outstanding job with THE BUGLE each month!  The layouts and information provided are great to look at and read!  The "feature car" each month might not be of complete interest each month, but reading the articles expands my knowledge and appreciation for these vehicles.  They might not "trip my trigger" each month, but then few commercial publications do either.  Knowing that the magazine used to be, with all due respect, the current one is multiple-light years humongously better than anything which came before it!!!  Seeing it every month is an anticipated moment.

 

And the beat goes on . . . .

 

NTX5467 

[NTX5467]

"Doing something different" can have mixed results, by observation.  For younger (at heart, if not mind) individuals, doing something different and "new" is a reason to do them.  "For the new experience of doing it", for example.  Doing "the same thing" can work against these younger individuals, while at the same time, meaning "security and safety" to an older demographic of individual.  But, such "same thing" can be just having a set time/date for the monthly meeting, too.  Keeping that stability is important for many, by observation.

 

In another club I'm in, it's larger with a younger demographic (think parents and younger children), we had some great places to meet in restaurants, but when those situations deteriorated with newer managers, we'd have to move.  It might take 6 months to get everybody back at the meetings, each time, although they got a printed newsletter each month with the meeting information in it.  That was just how that group was, as other clubs move their meetings each month with no noted issues.  A variable situation!

 

In a prior post, re: the local Mustang club in that area, the "young 'uns" and their newer Mustangs allegedly took over the club from the earlier members and "ruined it".  I'd say this was not really the case.  It could be that the older members (and their particular vehicular likes) didn't adapt or understand to the new products being sold as "Mustangs".  By comparison, the "original" Cougar club is not the "New Generation Cougar" club.  Yet there are many generations of Mustangs, as there are Buick Skylarks or Rivieras.  Having a dealer-sponsor for the club might have been a contributing factor to this club's situation, but NOT the complete factor.  Many Ford dealers sponsor or "are friends" of local Mustang clubs.  Same with Chrylser/Dodge dealers or GML dealers.  Surely, there must be a "payoff" for the dealership, not just in more new vehicle sales, but also in maintaining brand loyalty at the corporate level.

 

Whenever long-time members might leave a group, there's usually a reason this happens.  On the surface it can be related to membership costs or other reasons.  IF it's membership costs, that can mean a decreased level of discretionary income they might not desire to admit to, possibly.  To me, there are deeper reasons for some of these departures, even a changing priorities situation.  Some sell their cars, which is why they joined in the first case, and then want that to be "past them" at the particular time in their lives.  Sometimes, by observation, the stated reasons are not always the real reason.

 

Other times, it's a work hours situation that keeps members from attending meetings.  A second job or "retirement job" possibly?  If they can't attend meetings, why be a chapter member?  That's how they see it, as they continue with their BCA membership and receive THE BUGLE each month.

 

Whatever works . . .

 

NTX5467