Correct mid 20's Buick rear window detail

[Hubert_25-25]

I am wanting to determine the correct rear window size for the 1925 Standard rear window used on the touring cars.   I have the following information, and I also think the judging manual is incorrect, so I would like a little data to be able to ask about correcting the judging manual.  

 

For a 1925 Standard, I have 

BCA judging manual lists no dimensions, and the drawing is incorrect.  I believe this should be a D shaped window.  

Larry DiBarry's drawing 25 x 6 3/4, looks correct and very close to the 1925 Master size.    

Leif 22 3/4 x 6 3/4, May be narrower size since he has a Burbank top? 

 

And I have a D shaped Johnston window that is a casting of an original that is 26 1/2 x 7 1/4.  I would think the D shaped windows are Buick, but I am not sure what this should really go on.  

Attached is the page from the judging manual, and a drawing from Larry on one of the D shaped Johnston window.

Any information is appreciated.  Thank you  Hugh 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[27donb]

All I can add is my opinion.   I have seen D shaped windows in pictures of Buicks in the 20's, my '27 54CC originally had one.   In the black and white picture you can see it,  even through the front window.   That picture is from 1956.

 

The outer frame was toast, because it was pot metal.   It has an inner wood frame.   It had beveled plate glass, all of which was heavy and stretched the rear window flap.

 

At the time the cost to reproduce a one off frame exceeded my resources, and it was suggested I choose a common replacement available from a catalog, which I did.  It is close to the original size, but not a D.   Buick experts would know, most observers do not.   It is a flat profile stainless that looks pretty. 

 

My 27-25 should have a D in my opinion, but instead has what I believe to be a replacement also, but it is closer to original as the profile is half round, possibly because the car was cosmetically redone in 1970 and that frame was available.  It looks good. 

 

My 24-45 has a flat frame stainless replacement, that to me is obviously too square.    The picture of the 24-45 when it was blue shows the window it used to have, that may have been original.  My plan is too replace it with a more rectangular flat frame when time and money allows. 

 

If I had the means and money, I would want the D window.  I don't know if, like so many parts, the window size varied between Standard and Master. 

 

 

[dibarlaw]

Here is the one from my friends original 1927-54. Note the heavy beveled glass. Also note the Hidem at the rear bow has an aluminum insert. Probably only for the Sport Touring, Roadsters and Convertible Coupes.

 Also a photo of the 1925-25X "Around The World Buick" at Horseshoe Curve Altoona PA.

 It shows the shape of the rear window.

[Leif Holmberg]

Measured my original broken rear window frame ,was on my Burbank top, and it was between 22 3/4"- 23"x 6 3/4" . Johnstone Patended

Leif in Sweden.

[dibarlaw]

Here is the 1928 Standard Roadster restored by Gerald Petersen and was at the 2014 Buick Nationals at Portland.

[27donb]

28 minutes ago, dibarlaw said:

Here is the 1928 Standard Roadster restored by Gerald Petersen and was at the 2014 Buick Nationals at Portland.

 

Wow! 

 

How do I get one of those frames?

 

Beautiful! 

 

Any pictures of the window frame from the inside? 

Edited November 9, 2017 by 27donb (see edit history)

[Leif Holmberg]

This`s how I  made a pattern and did the frame.

Leif in Sweden.

[dibarlaw]

Don:

 Gerald told me that was the frame that came with the car. It was not cracked or broken! He had it re-plated. He did not send any inside photos as I did not ask. This is what the car looked like from the front.

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by dibarlaw
spelling (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

 

I appreciate all of the photos.  From what I understand, when the tops got bad, the rear window frame was pretty rough too, and they all got thrown out and replaced at the same time.  The other item that I find of particular interest is how the inside of the top is trimmed using the wood window frame.  Its not like you just use the back side of the canvas as the inside of the top.  There is a lining material that is installed at the back of the interior.   So the window itself is installed "between" the 2 layers of materials.  The bottom photo from Leif shows how they did the inner liner in the touring cars, but perhaps the window should have been finished out like the photo above. 

  

[dibarlaw]

Hugh:

When these were replaced in the 30s the trimmers did not want to bother with the inner lining. Also the wooden frame tended to warp and rot once they got wet from leakage. My oval Johnston window in the top I have on Beulah still has the wood frame for it. You can see from the photo the stains from leaking.

Here are some photos of the frames. The 2 originals are the same size. One came out of the original Master top . One from a top Dave Blaufarb had for his 1928-25 and a copy I made out of poplar to match the metal frame remnants that I based my CAD drawing on.

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by dibarlaw
Added content (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

I don't see 1923 Model 45 listed on the chart.  Did I miss it?

 

Anyone know what is correct for same?

 

Thx!

[Leif Holmberg]

2 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

 

I appreciate all of the photos.  From what I understand, when the tops got bad, the rear window frame was pretty rough too, and they all got thrown out and replaced at the same time.  The other item that I find of particular interest is how the inside of the top is trimmed using the wood window frame.  Its not like you just use the back side of the canvas as the inside of the top.  There is a lining material that is installed at the back of the interior.   So the window itself is installed "between" the 2 layers of materials.  The bottom photo from Leif shows how they did the inner liner in the touring cars, but perhaps the window should have been finished out like the photo above. 

  

You are right Hugh,I`m to lazy to fix it,I have hade it so for nearly 50 year now!

Leif in Sweden.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Leif Holmberg (see edit history)

[27donb]

On 11/9/2017 at 5:16 PM, dibarlaw said:

Don:

 Gerald told me that was the frame that came with the car. It was not cracked or broken! He had it re-plated. He did not send any inside photos as I did not ask. This is what the car looked like from the front.

 

 

A surviver window frame, how rare! 

 

I went through several cracked 1925 "dogbone" radiator caps before I found a survivor that I incorrectly use on my 27 Standard. 

 

But I think it's a beautiful cap. 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by 27donb (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

That looks very close to the accessory cap for the 1925 Master Sport Tourings, Roadsters and Coupes.    

I saw one for sale at Hershey that I would have loved to have for my Master. Still it had a chunk missing at the base of the threaded section. The vendor had all these radiator ornaments in a foam fitted case. So I knew not to even ask a price. The 1927-1928 Godess caps that I have seen for over $400 were usually a crumbling mess. I would like to see these 1925 caps reproduced. I also think they are beautiful.  

[Leif Holmberg]

On 2017-11-11 at 1:30 AM, 27donb said:

 

A surviver window frame, how rare! 

 

I went through several cracked 1925 "dogbone" radiator caps before I found a survivor that I incorrectly use on my 27 Standard. 

 

But I think it's a beautiful cap. 

Those "dogbone"type  caps are in the 1925 and 1926 Master parts book,but with different parts number and with a little bit different scape on the ornamentering.In 1927 they are gone.

Leif in Sweden.

 

 

 

[Hubert_25-25]

I started to put the pieces together to build a D shaped rear window frame.  I made a forming jig similar to what Leif made, only smaller.  Mine is aluminum and I will have to flip it over to do both sides of the window.  I also have stainless half round that I will need to heat in order to make the bends.  I hope it bends right and does not discolor the stainless.  I also hope that the heat will not effect the bending jig.  I guess I will know pretty soon.  Then I will need to find someone who can weld the 2 ends of the stainless and make it look seamless.  I need to weld on round threaded tubes for mounting as well.  I may even try acid etching the JohnsTon  logo if the bending and welding works.      Hugh

Edited November 2, 2019 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[trimacar]

I may be Captain Obvious on this one, but I've installed numerous rear windows in rear curtains that have two fabric layers.  

 

The wood frame is supported with straps up to the rear bow, hidden by the two layers of material.  The curtain itself would have a hard time holding that weight.

 

Good luck with your installation....

[Hubert_25-25]

David, 

     That is a really good detail that you point out.  Adding straps as you suggest is a good idea.  The glass is heavy, and a stainless frame although more durable is heavier than aluminum.  Thank you.    Hugh

[Brian_Heil]

I bought a nice frame at Hershey this Fall since the three small windows on my Buick are Model T frames 

 

The frame I bought is two piece screw together aluminum and has 4 small D rings and some remaining strap material on each of the 4

 

I’d post a pic but I left it in the trunk of my Summer car that is now in storage. 
 

My very knowledgeable friend Wayne Funk said you want one with the D rings otherwise the heavy window and frame put too much load on the canvas top.  Makes sense. 
 

Question is, who is doing tops for less than the price of a kidney?

[trimacar]

I don't charge a kidney, but to do a top correctly from scratch is easily 60 to 70 hours, plus $1000 or more in material. You can do the math at 50-60 an hour.

 

I'm not talking a hastily put on kit or rush job, but a quality job on a wood bow car, straight stitches and proper padding.

 

I usually spend 6 to 8 hours just making sure bows are square and aligned.

 

I'm sure there are people out there that do it for less.

 

Personally, I'm trying to quit!

[Brian_Heil]

For the record, I’ve seen your work and it is first rate. 
 

What’s the old saying?  Cost is forgotten long after the quality remains or something like that. 
 

The best one I ever heard was about a guy who made his own top. Brave soul for sure, braver than me.  But I heard a guy comment about the crooked stitching. ‘Looks like a drunk’s tracks in the snow’.  I never forgot that saying. 

[Hubert_25-25]

I finally resolved the issues with the inaccuracies on page 26 of the Buick judging manual.  Now I need to go about having the changes made.  I am in the middle of making the rear D shaped window for my 1925 model 25.  1925 and 1926 models 24 and 25 share the same back window as verified by Leif and the original top and back window that I received from Brian Meek's 1925-24.  This cross reference matches the big book of parts.  The 1925 Master D shape window is slightly larger (like everything else on the Master).   Same height but 23" wide on the Standard and 25" wide on the Master.  There is also one other D shaped window that is larger still (26 1/2" x 7") for the more expensive cars.   Thanks for the help Leif Holmberg, Brian Meek, 27Don B,  and Larry DiBarry.       Hugh

 

[Hubert_25-25]

On 11/10/2017 at 10:34 AM, Brian_Heil said:

I don't see 1923 Model 45 listed on the chart.  Did I miss it?

 

Anyone know what is correct for same?

 

Thx!

Brian, 

       I do not see the 1923 Model 45 listed at all either!  I do not have a copy of the 1923 6 cylinder book of parts.  If I was a betting man, I would say that the model 44 is the same as the model 45 for 1923.  Buick was using the same frame in each specific year for models 44 and 45, then another frame for models 24 and 25.   In your case I would suggest that it would be the rectangular window shown in the lower left on the BCA judging guide page 26.      Hugh

Edited November 8, 2019 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Terry Wiegand]

I have the Illustrated Parts Catalog for the 1923 Fours and Sixes.  The tops for the Models 44 and 45 are shown with the rear windows.  I will photograph the two pages later today.  The book cannot be scanned and get all of the detail from each page.  I hope that this will help answer the questions raised.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Terry Wiegand]

As promised, here are the photos from the 1923 Illustrated Parts Catalog.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Terry Wiegand]

Another Photo

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Terry Wiegand]

Last Photo describing 1923 Model 45 Top Assembly.  Brian, I hope that this will be of some help for you.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Hubert_25-25]

Terry, 

    Is there not a section that says "Back Curtain light assembly"    Hugh

[Terry Wiegand]

Hugh,

 

There are TWO headings listed.  There is a 'BACK CURTAIN LIGHT' AND A 'BACK CURTAIN'.  The BACK CURTAIN LIGHT ASSEMBLY is part number 39544 and is shown in the catalog.  There is a BACK CURTAIN ASSEMBLY with a part number 161618 for the Model 45, however, that is not shown.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Terry Wiegand]

Hugh,

Here is a photo of the 'BACK CURTAIN LIGHT ASSEMBLY' that you asked about.  The Roadster Rear light is noticeably smaller that the Touring Light.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Terry Wiegand]

Here is the photo of the Part Number Descriptions.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Hubert_25-25]

Terry, 

    Thanks for the added detail.  That answers the question that the 1923 model 45 back curtain light is different from the model 44.  

[Brian_Heil]

Great work Buick Brothers. 

[Hubert_25-25]

It seems no one sells a Johnston style window - especially one that is D shaped like Buick made.  These have a wood backing that I will have to replicate as well.  More on this when I get there.  I need to build and install the back window in the back top panel before I can install the top on the car so this is a big task that I need to finish first.   

 

Bending stainless steel half round the hard way is quite difficult.  The inner part of the bend tries to go down during the bend, and you really need to keep a lot of heat on the steel during the bending process.   I am on a steep learning curve on this one.  The first fixture that I built barely worked for the large radius bends, but not good enough for the tight radius bends.  Not enough control of the part.  Attached is a photo of the first fixture so that you know not to build one like this.  I also had to invest in a $300 O2 Acetylene torch because I needed a lot more heat.  I started with using the small O2 map gas units that use propane style tanks, but they are too small and do not put out enough heat.  My first good frame came on 5/8" half round #3.  Shooting for 23" x 6 3/4" outside, and it came out 22 3/4 x 6 1/2".  It looks right and the main thing is that the bends are flat so that the glass should not break.  Another adjustment on half round #4 and I hit the same width somehow, but I did get the height to 6 3/4".  Also glad that my 6" bench vise did survive (but it struggled at times and now has an S shaped handle).  This was also very much a 2 man job as 1 person needs to heat while the other does the bending.  The steel looses heat very rapidly.  Next step is to find a welder that can make this one piece, and to install the 14 threaded holes on the back.  The photos also show bending fixture #2 which was a major improvement.  I use 2 sets of dies in it based on the size of bending that I am doing.     Hugh

            

[Mark Kikta]

That is fascinating!  Well done Hugh.

[bradsan]

Hugh

 

Pretty impressive!

I think some TIG welding should make an invisible joint after grinding and polishing.

 

Brad

[Hubert_25-25]

Brad, 

    You are absolutely correct about the Tig welding being the answer.  I have had the 2 frames welded up and it creates a seamless joint.  The key is using a professional welder and not me.  I did clean up some of the frame but not all of it.  Photo 1.  These frames are 5/8" stainless half round.  The next challenge is installing the 14 threads per frame to hold the wood to the metal frame.  My plan was to use 3mm stainless "Rivetnuts".  photo 2.   Drill a shallow hole, secure the rivnut with wire, add a tack weld on each side.  Photo 3 also shown as option A.  When I took this test sample to the welder, he was concerned about being able to do the tack welds easily.  I am wanting to consider other alternatives.  I do have a OxyAcetelyene torch.  Is brazing easy and a good alternative?  Anyone have a good brazing rod that they would recommend?  Does it need flux?  Option B is to drill and tap all the holes.  3mm or 6-32 tap into the stainless.  Cut off sections of all thread, cut a slot in the back of a rivnut for a screwdriver.  Seems like more work and some slight risk of breaking a tap or drilling too far.     Hugh

        

Edited February 18, 2020 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[bradsan]

Hugh

 

The rivnuts are a great idea!

Rather than oxy acetylene why not just silver solder . Even better  why not natures miracle JB Weld?, You are just going to polish this right? No plating. Why not try a test and see how the JB Weld holds up? This part is not structural after all.

 

Brad

[Bloo]

I think silver solder (hard solder like safety-silv 56, not the stuff they sell for plumbing) would be the way to go. It ought to be better than glue no matter how good the glue is. Simichrome polish and buffing will polish the stainless back up after it turns blue.

 

I do not believe you can braze stainless steel (with brass rod).

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Bloo
corrected name of solder (see edit history)

[trimacar]

The ideal solution would be to find a stud welder, see if someone has one you can borrow.  Then, it's just a one step, quick, process to put either the special nuts you have or a threaded stud on the back of the frame.  Some body shops use them for help in dent removal, spot weld a stud in the middle of a dent and pull it out, then grind off stud.

 

I was involved in the construction of a food plant, with thousands of feet of stainless conveyor, and the stud welder for putting an attachment point wherever one wished on the conveyor was invaluable.

Edited February 18, 2020 by trimacar (see edit history)