Packard Rebuild Input ??

[stevep516]

I'm in the process of restoring my 1940 Packard 160 Convertible Sedan. This will not be a "frame off" , but most of the car will be rebuilt, repainted , etc.......without pulling the body off. I want a very nice touring car not afraid to drive it.

One of my biggest concerns is how do I determine the condition of the engine without pulling it down? It ran great when I started the project , but I'm second guessing myself as to what I should do with the engine. 

Will a compression check suffice? Or are there any other diagnostic checks to perform?

I'm looking for any thoughts and input!

Regards, 

[Brass is Best]

You can do a cylinder pressure bleed down test. You can also drop the oil pan to inspect bearings and pull the side plate to inspect the valves and camshaft. If you know a good motor rebuilder you could have them perform the tests and inspect the engine for you.

[trimacar]

Hmmm, that car looks familiar!

 

Compression test will tell you something about top end, should pull the pan off, check a main or two to see condition, as well as a rod or too....visual for cracks and plastigage for clearance.....check clearances and condition of oil pump while pan is off....

 

if it ran well, then you're just verifying there are no big issues getting ready to bite you....

[stevep516]

Thanks for the input...........I'm really at a crossroad...........do I go ahead and pull it the motor while it's such easy access or just just clean it up and do the diagnostics suggested.

[Mike36]

Do you really want to pull it, and then find out it's ok? Doing the diagnostics now will tell you the next step.

[stevep516]

Thanks again.................David you wouldn't recognize  the car now!

[West Peterson]

Hi Steve

I think Andrew and David's advice would be the first place to start. In my opinion, based on how well it ran before, and if you got a good "doctor's" report, I wouldn't tear it down no way.

 

What I would do, while you have the front clip completely removed, is to rebuild all the peripheral components, both on the engine and in the front end. DO NOT forget to check and/or replace the center steering link. Those tended to get forgotten about during regular lube jobs, and many have since frozen solid. Rebuild the fuel pump, water pump, carburetor, steering box, shocks, replace the tie-rod ends and king pins, install sealed bearings in the generator. As long as you have the radiator out, I would not simply flush it out. Get it re-cored. While the water pump is off, check the water distribution tube. Do a comprehensive flush of the engine.

 

DO NOT put radial tires on the car. Once you completely rebuild the front end, that will suffice. I did a road test of two exact same 180 Packards with complete front-end rebuilds, one with radials and one without. There was no discernible difference in handling.

 

We have communicated much in the past, so I'm pretty sure you have probably already visited my PackardInfo restoration blog on my own 1940 Super Eight, but if not, here is the link: http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4307&forum=10

[Guest SaddleRider]

3 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

DO NOT put radial tires on the car. Once you completely rebuild the front end, that will suffice. I did a road test of two exact same 180 Packards with complete front-end rebuilds, one with radials and one without. There was no discernible difference in handling.

 

Outstanding post with great advice....EXCEPT for the nonsense above.  To be kind...I would suggest Wes somehow wound up with the worst radials in the world replacing the best "bias" in the world.....

 

Unless you are faced with  a choice of the worst radials in the world compared to the best bias tires in the world......well......

[West Peterson]

17 minutes ago, SaddleRider said:

 

Outstanding post with great advice....EXCEPT for the nonsense above.  To be kind...I would suggest Wes somehow wound up with the worst radials in the world replacing the best "bias" in the world.....

 

Unless you are faced with  a choice of the worst radials in the world compared to the best bias tires in the world......well......

The ones everyone puts on. So, by your post, we can assume that most people are putting on the worst radials sin the world. Better to use bias ply on prewar cars. Look better, last longer, and most people don't drive them enough to warrant any perceived handling differences anyway.

[Guest]

This would be a good time to rebuild the starter and generator.  Everything is out in the open and the car will be off the road for a short time.  Not a big expenditure but the failure of either can leave you just as stranded as if the engine blew up.

[Rusty_OToole]

How is the oil pressure? How is the compression? If the oil pressure is up to factory spec, hot and cold, and the compression is good you should be ok. If it was running well a short time ago with no rattles knocks or bangs.

 

The Packard experts may know some weak point of that motor. You could take the oil pan off and clean it out, that is normal maintenance. But my thought is to leave well enough alone unless there is some indication of a problem.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[JWLawrence]

As Steve Jobs used to say: 'There's one more thing." How is the clutch? JWL

[West Peterson]

... and the wings on the hood ornament need to be squoozed together. I don't know if that's possible, but they should be closer together.

[C Carl]

Besides ; look : if you are not going to drive it enough warrant putting the best SAFEST tires on it , (radial light truck tires - perhaps with D'back WW , or even WWWs applied) , then probably good enough as is. You certainly do want to do all diagnostics , and deep maintainance suggested above , partial dismantling as per SOP , taking advantage of easy access. Bearing condition as others have mentioned , and also timing chain if you or someone else has not been there in many thousands of miles of recorded history.   

 

Here you you see very simple inexpensive diagnostics while fixing bad radiator , and cracked r.h. cyl head. New timing chain tensioner , rebuilt carb and distributor , water pump had been done by previous owner who had been told radiator was O.K. It wasn't. Everything else checked out excellent , and we zipped it back up without having to do expensive machine shop work , or even rings and valves. The old Lesters continue to serve me well. No radials are available in 7.00 X 21 or anything close. I really enjoy driving slowly on the scenic remote Western Backroads. I try to stay under 40. Have been forced to 60 in extremely rare circumstances , e.g. through a tunnel on a short necessary freeway run where no other way to proceed was available. If you DO drive that heavy old car far and fast as the esteemed adventurous old leadfoot "SaddleRider" does , take the gentleman's advice to heart. Lives depend on it.

 

Please keep us in the loop as your restoration progresses. Good luck , and I hope you don't have to go deeper than I did !  - Carl

 

[West Peterson]

Pete... and rePete

Bias ply tires are not unsafe. A car that needs its front-end rebuilt is unsafe, and putting radial tires on it to mask the real problem is unsafe.

[Restorer32]

If you run a series of diagnostic tests here is what will happen. All your measurements, be they compression, leak down, oil pressure or any other parameter will yield results somewhere in between "as new" and "at the end of its useful life". The only thing this will accomplish is to make you even more apprehensive about driving it as is. You will constantly fret that something might let go at any moment. My suggestion is to run NO tests. Assume the engine is in new condition. A Drive it carefully and with respect for its age until something happens that indicates a full rebuild is necessary. This isn't an exotic engine and parts are available. Alternatively, pull it down and do a complete rebuild now while you have easy access. Parts and labor won't be any cheaper 5 years from now. 

[Brass is Best]

5 hours ago, West Peterson said:

Hi Steve

I think Andrew and David's advice would be the first place to start. In my opinion, based on how well it ran before, and if you got a good "doctor's" report, I wouldn't tear it down no way.

 

What I would do, while you have the front clip completely removed, is to rebuild all the peripheral components, both on the engine and in the front end. DO NOT forget to check and/or replace the center steering link. Those tended to get forgotten about during regular lube jobs, and many have since frozen solid. Rebuild the fuel pump, water pump, carburetor, steering box, shocks, replace the tie-rod ends and king pins, install sealed bearings in the generator. As long as you have the radiator out, I would not simply flush it out. Get it re-cored. While the water pump is off, check the water distribution tube. Do a comprehensive flush of the engine.

 

DO NOT put radial tires on the car. Once you completely rebuild the front end, that will suffice. I did a road test of two exact same 180 Packards with complete front-end rebuilds, one with radials and one without. There was no discernible difference in handling.

 

We have communicated much in the past, so I'm pretty sure you have probably already visited my PackardInfo restoration blog on my own 1940 Super Eight, but if not, here is the link: http://packardinfo.com/xoops/html/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4307&forum=10

 

I have found cars with radial tires tend to be a bear to steer at low or no speed. Bias ply tires look correct and work just fine.

[Brass is Best]

1 hour ago, JWLawrence said:

As Steve Jobs used to say: 'There's one more thing." How is the clutch? JWL

 

Don't forget the throw out bearing.

[Spinneyhill]

As a driver of an old car in well-used condition, I think knowledge is power. If you do the tests outlined above and have them interpreted by experts, you will be able to make an informed decision about whether to rebuild and how to drive it if you don't rebuild. The hard part will be to find two experts that agree on the diagnosis!

 

Just an observation about tires. Wider tires = harder steering at low speeds. It is my observation that many who fit radials fit tires with more tread on the ground then grumble about hard steering at low speed. The designers set up the steering for the specified tire widths (and pressures) so of course it will not be as nice with wider tires at low speed. I had a post-grad. colleague at university who's wife struggled with the steering on their Triumph 2500. The fix was either fit power steering (which was an option on those cars) or narrower tires (i.e. the size specified in the manual). The tires were cheaper and fixed the problem.

 

 

[trimacar]

The contact patch on the road of the tire is dependent on pressure in tire and strength of sidewalls.  Based on that, I don't think the "more tread on the ground" with a radial is correct.  A radial might be wider, thus contributing to a friction load around the turning point/axis of the radial tire, but the surface contact on the road, in square inches, isn't greater with a radial.

[stevep516]

Guys,

Thank you so much for all of the advice................Each response is very appreciated!!

I would like to comment on the radial tire conversation. When I purchased the car, the previous owner had purchased a new set of radial whitewalls for the car. This was a first for me as all of my other cars have the bias ply. I don't know enough about the science behind this, but I can tell you I did not like the way it drove . I didn't drive it enough to describe exactly what was going on, but I first response was " I can't wait to change these tires out"

Thanks again.

Steve

[wayne sheldon]

Radial tires are one of the biggest cons ever pulled on the American public.

The fuel savings is real, but negligible. Only the "roll resistance" of the tire is affected. The roll resistance of a radial tire is less than ten percent better than a bias tire (on average). But "roll resistance" is only about five percent or less of fuel consumption (depending mostly on speed, wind resistance, and weight of vehicle). So the radial tire has better fuel economy on a scale of less than ten percent of less than five percent. Or put another way, way less than a half one percent fuel savings. Negligible.

Radial tires do hold the road better, perform better, and give superior handling. But only at speeds in excess of 70 or 80 mph (they require the centrifugal force of the spinning tire to firm up and really make the grip count. In Europe, with the German Autobahns, and Spanish, French, and Italian high speed roads, where cars built for such speeds are commonly sold, and driven in excess of 100 mph? Yes, you want radial tires. In the USA, with maximum speed limits in most states under 80 mph? No need. Below about 60 mph, bias tires squirm less and handle better.

How fast do most people drive their Packards?

 

So why do we push radial tires? Well, this I was told by a retired former middle management employee of a major USA tire manufacturer (about thirty years ago). Radial tires cost less to manufacture (because of a simpler machine process for weaving the casing), and can be sold for more money, because nobody really knows the difference and there isn't much competition trying to undercut radial prices.

 

And, of course, nearly all cars built in the last twenty years have had the steering geometry set up to favor radial tires. So, for your modern car? Radials may be the necessary choice.

I better go shut up now. 

[60FlatTop]

When I put together all the comments on radial versus biased tires I keep coming to the same conclusion. The guys are saying "I took the 30 year old biased tires off my car and put on a set of new radials, WOW! It never drove so good."

 

Whether I am right or wrong, the important thing is comprehending the information and drawing my own conclusion. Too many people sit on the edge of their seat anxiously awaiting the conclusion of someone else.

 

Then you can also listen to all the conclusions and try to untangle that.

ernie

[Guest SaddleRider]

PACKARD E-BUILD discussion, cont:

Some outstanding advice in here - and some "back-yard" nonsense. 

 

To be fair,  I may have just a wee bit more  time, background, & experience on the issue of operating heavy, powerful, fast pre-war cars than some of you in here....maybe more than a 'wee bit"....?

 

At the risk of disagreeing with some of you self-appointed "experts"  and/or some of you who have only READ about the issues, personalities involved...let me note the following:

 

First,  the big Packards of the pre-war era had long and relatively narrow oil pans - at least by today's standards.  A oil change ( or even removing the "clean-out plate" that the "big" pre-war Packards had on the bottom of their oil pans.....)  dosnt solve a problem.  Bearing-destroying dirt adhering to the inner walls of the oil pan after a oil change.

 

To ensure the oil pump is not picking up that bearing-damaging "grit",   I recommend - at the very least...like every two years...the oil pan should be "dropped" and cleaned.  Good time to check the rod bearings.  

 

"Steve" would be well-advised to do that before making any attempt to operate...or even rotate the crank-shaft of his motor.

 

Once the lower crankcase/oil pan is back on the car with fresh multi-grade (10-30 unless he anticipates regular driving in August across the Mojave desert at steady speeds exceeding 80 mph - in which case I would go to a 15-40) then he can run it for a while, AFTER which a compression / bleed-down like we do in aircraft test would be appropriate.     Then and only then would it be appropriate to make a decision about further motor work.

 

The 1940 Packard was of conventional construction - the entire "front clip" is easily removed - after which "pulling" the engine/transmission assembly,  (should that be necessary)    ,   is no big deal....no reason to even scratch the paint !     Pre-war Packards are easily "field-overhauled" ( rings, bearings, valve-grind) with the engines remaining in the chassis...no big deal there either.

 

As others have noted,  the various parts of the steering system should be disassembled and inspected, with particular attention devoted to the "center steering crank bearing".

 

RE : TIRES - the "bias -vs- radial" issue

To be fair to Wes & others,   I have an unfair advantage....a  background with the issue, and with the personalities involved, that  he & some of you have only read about or heard about thru their parents....

 

To summarize the problem with "repro" bias tires,  ( and to put it delicately),  there are variances in quality.    Some  have proven acceptable in service,  some not so much!    

 

 The big problem in ANY bias tire is heat-generating internal flexing.   That account for the much higher failure rate.    Yes - there is a reason why so many big pre-war cars carried multiple spare tires.    These days...how many of you have had tire failure in which you needed the spare....?

 

 Yes, there were some pretty dramatic hi speed exhibitions by Packard and other manufacturers  with bias tires - even going back to the early 1930's.....but be assured they were running tire pressures substantially higher than one finds in the owner's manuals...!  Adding ten pounds psi to the so called "owner's manual recommended tire pressure"  goes a long way to reducing the risk of bias tire failure from the phenomena of internally generated heat-stress.

 

As others have correctly pointed out,  radials "grip" the road superior to bias tires,   so tire tread width is a factor in trying to move the steering wheel when the car is standing still.  A bit of forward or rearward movement removes that issue.

 

It is my understanding that virtually all of the radial tires available thru the major "collector car" suppliers today,  meet modern standards, and thus will prove reliable in service.   That is not necessarily true of the "bias" tires.     Especially in the early days of the "collector re-pro" attempts at getting us authentic-looking while-walls in tire sizes no longer available.    Repeated blow-outs....badly "out-of-round".....etc.   

 

Anyone seen a "tire knife" in a tire shop these days?   For those who don't know....radial tires released by the majors today...are ROUND.   You rarely have to add more than an ounce or two to balance them.  Bias tires may or may not be round - "skinning" the typical bias tire in now long-gone tire "rounding" equipment as much as 5/32 of an inch AND add several ounces of weight.... was not uncommon in the old days to get the new tires to the point they wouldn't durn near shake the hood off !

 

Yes, it is true that modern radials will "mask"  front suspension isssues.    It is equally true that many bias "repro" tires will accent the differences in suspension technology.

 

Yes - if your collector car's primary operating experience is from the trailer. across  the parking lot to its place-of-exhibition.....no problem...bias tires are fine.    There are some of you who actually LIKE driving a properly maintained collector car.   At ANY speed, on ANY road surface,  a correctly-sized radial is much more likely to give you a superior driving experience than any bias tire.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by SaddleRider
Asparagus (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Thanks, Pete

I'd just like to add one thing: My experiences are experiences, and not read from a book. I've been in the hobby since I was born, and have been driving the big machinery since 1970. Very few miles pulling them behind a trailer.

[60FlatTop]

But the anecdotal experience has to be observed by an accrediting authority to avoid self-appointing.

 

[46 woodie]

Don't touch the Cormorants wings as suggested on post 13, you know that as soon as you try to press them closer together, one will break.

[Guest SaddleRider]

2 hours ago, West Peterson said:

. I've been in the hobby since I was born, and have been driving the big machinery since 1970. Very few miles pulling them behind a trailer.

 

I can "top" that......Wes says SINCE he was born......horse feathers....try and beat THIS..........I may have been CONCEIVED in my parents '36  "120".....my mom, still carrying me inside, was delivered to the hospital in that "120".     How's that for a "born and bred" Packard fanatic....!

 

Wes's remark about my collector-car being in a trailer has merit.   Story behind that.    About fifteen years ago  I saw an ad for a PACKARD event at Hickory Corners.   Immediately sent in a check.   1,500 mi. each way at modern "Interstate" speeds ?    In summer ?    No problem for my collector car.   Didn't think twice about how it would get there.   Jump in..start it up..and GOOOO !

 

That is...until a month later, or about a month before the event....watching late night news...something about HAIL STORMS  along the route to the event.....

 

I twisted and wriggled....panic....couldn't sleep......hail storms on my beautiful near-mint car collector car ?  All those years ( I got it in 1956)  of being devoted to preserving it...?     HAIL ?        Night after night...lying in bed......twisting...turning...finally..wife laid down the law...."you are cancelling that trip or buying a trailer for that thing". 

 

So I did .  Nice three-axle "box" style.

 

So to that extent, Wes's "insult" is valid...more and more in recent years...my collector car,  perfectly capable of crossing the continent in summer at 90 mph+.....now does go by trailer from time to time.    (at least part of the reason for that is most car events I go to in summer,   my diesel "Jimmy" has factory air.....  Packard didn't have "factory air" available until late  1939......(for 1940 production)   so I am out of luck there...from an authenticity standpoint...) 

 

What Wes may have over-heard about me  in the early years - both before and after he was born....!    Is my reputation for making snide remarks at car shows...to people who trailered their cars..." IF YOU CANT DRIVE IT...JUNK IT"......

 

So thanks to Wes...I get to eat my own words.....but not all the time ! 

 

Here in northern Arizona...plenty of wide two-lane roads - plenty of places to go in my collector car; roads that bear some relationship to the driving conditions the car was designed for.  So yes,  to a somewhat lesser degree than when I drove it in the  Southern California area in the mid 1950's........it still does get a work-out from time to time....!

 

Now....folks......you'll have to excuse me for a couple of hours.....it is time again to "drop" the oil pan on "Tar Baby".....clean it...and check those still near "factory new-limit" copper-lead "insert" rod bearings.

 

Since I no longer have a need to take on the infamous "Needles To Kingman" car-killer grade on I-40 at anything over 80 mph...I will re-fill with 10W-30......!

Edited October 20, 2017 by SaddleRider
bunney wabbets (see edit history)

[Guest SaddleRider]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

But the anecdotal experience has to be observed by an accrediting authority to avoid self-appointing.

 

 

How did you get my picture ?

[60FlatTop]

I did a search for experts, minus "self appointed".

 

It is a Boolean thing.

Bernie

[Grimy]

28 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I did a search for experts, minus "self appointed".

 

It is a Boolean thing.

Bernie

Within the bomb technician community, the term "expert" is reserved for those who perished working on a device.

[60FlatTop]

Whew! That puts a whole new meaning to being "a bit of an expert"

[stevep516]

Thanks again for the input.........regarding the motor condition, as I move forward I'll post the results.

Regards

[mcdarrunt]

As suggested, a leak down test will give a reliable indicator of the top end condition and the oil pan looks to have good access on the 41 120 on our rack right now. It just got a rebuilt engine that we R&R'd without pulling the front clip and it went surprisingly easy. What DID NOT go easy was stabbing the OD transmission and hooking up that *#@% throw out bearing return spring. Threw this in so that if you don't really, really need a new clutch, I'd pass.

[West Peterson]

But it's so easy to remove the entire front clip. The sidemounts require that you have to unbolt a few extra bolts, but otherwise it's a snap given that you have four or five guys to help lift it off.

[stevep516]

Thanks again guys,  removing the front clip was piece of cake.................

[mcdarrunt]

I agree and we don't guarantee no paint damage if clip is not removed but owner absolutely insisted it not be removed. I'm sure it made his bill higher. Here is a photo showing how open the pan is for removal for a bearing check.

 

 

[West Peterson]

10 hours ago, stevep516 said:

Thanks again guys,  removing the front clip was piece of cake.................

 

 

That's interesting. When I removed my front clip, the radiator came out with it.

I'm impressed with how much you've taken apart.

[West Peterson]

Steve, your photo reminds me of one of my pieces of advice: Installing sealed bearings in the generator so that you don't have to oil it periodically (how much? how often? when did I do it last? did I put in too much? etc.).

 

BUT, not only that... since the generator is located right below the oil filter, that can be the point of a huge problem. A couple of times when I changed oil and replaced the oil filter, I didn't get the gasket on the top of the filter canister put on correctly, and immediately upon starting the car, oil came flowing out of the filter, with a lot of oil streaming into the opened area of the front of the generator. That resulted in the generator having to be removed and cleaned out. Now I am very careful about replacing the canister gasket, and covering the back of the generator until I know I've got a good seal.

[West Peterson]

I also highly recommend that you ask Big Kev for a copy of a DVD that he copied from me. It is a very well done series of tv shows that Packard expert Mark Lambert made (History Channel ... when History Channel was good), which shows some very good "how to" steps in rebuilding many of the components of the "production" Packards of the late 1930s and early 1940s. It was a HUGE help for me.