Guest BobJohnson Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I just bought a 1951 Chrysler NewYorker from Missouri and brought into Pa. the problem I'm having is that the title number doesn't match theVIN on the door post which is what Pa looks at. The title says"C51845657" while the door VIN plate is "7192545" any help to get this mess corrected? Where is the first number located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Engine serial number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Using the engine number on title documents was very common in the 1950s. Find someone in the DMV who is old enough to know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobJohnson Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) Will try. But would like to make a new door tag with the proper serial number on it. Edited October 17, 2017 by BobJohnson Make change (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 BobJohnson, Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. Please do yourself a major favor and don't mess with the car's original numbers. There are several different numbers found on most cars. In the past, before 17 digit Vehicle Identification Numbers, it was common to title a vehicle by either the frame or chassis number or by the engine number, or in some cases, both. Hopefully someone with experience with a Chrysler of that era can help you locate the engine number, which probably matches the number found on your title. You DMV should have someone who knows enough to help you with this issue. Perhaps the person who sold you the car can help you locate the engine number. There is no reason to start trying to falsify numbers on a car to match the paperwork. Simply get the facts and as long as you actually have the correct title for that car, the car and the paperwork will match as it is supposed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Walling Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 You have just entered the Twilight Zone of the registry. Very little is known about this place, as not too many have ever left after entering there. All the passageways seem to be circular and all end up in a dead end. The doors always open up into a long dark passage with a clerk sitting at a desk that always answer NO! Sometimes it is possible to have an intelligent conversation with someone, who always answer NO anyways. There are people that can over ride the NO, but they are very hard to find. In Ma., there is a question "is the car from NY.?" I am yet to find out why they ask that question. Good luck. You have a better chance of receiving your death certificate before getting a corrected title! (;-0) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I bought a 1956 Wills-Overland pickup that was registered as a 1950. I figured back when things were hand written someone got fancy with the 0. I made out all the correct paperwork for a '56 and took it to the DMV. The first person thought I was a criminal and told me to get a signed statement from a counterman I had mentioned agreed with me. That was a stupid idea so I started to leave for another office and perpetuate the mistake. Wanting to do things right, I turned around and asked for the Boss. She was better natured. We looked up all the Willys pickups listed in the state, about 6 or 8 of them. There was no consistency in the VIN numbers at all. Then she said "An older car is worth more than a newer one, so you are not defrauding to make it worth more." I hesitated because it was a better truck with a bigger engine. She stopped me and nodded her head saying "Agree with me." I let my brain fart pass. And everything went smoothly. Ask, in a rural DMV office, to compare the numbers with other PA titles for '51 Chryslers in the database. Just stay away from those city branches. And always practice looking stupid in the mirror every morning. THEY look in the mirror and get angry every morning, It is obvious it really works. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass is Best Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, BobJohnson said: Will try. But would like to make a new door tag with the proper serial number on it. The last thing you want to do is remove or change that tag. Try locating the engine number. If the engine number is what is on the title show that to the DMV. Edited October 17, 2017 by Brass is Best (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dep5 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, BobJohnson said: Will try. But would like to make a new door tag with the proper serial number on it. For reference, 1951 Chrysler C52 New Yorker, Detroit built, is #7165001 through #7199900 Very common to have cars of that era titled to the engine number. Inspector can verify engine number and add a notation with the serial number on the door post. The term "VIN number" didn't come about until about thirty years later. The engine number is stamped on top of the block, behind the water pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Man Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I had a State Police officer tell me as long as I can show them the Title number "permanently affixed to the vehicle" they are good. They do not care where the plate is, it just needs to correspond the vehicle title (engines numbers are the rule before 1950). My guess is they are generally more interested in lunch, than where the plate is located. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrspeedyt Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 my 1923 buick used the engine number on the title when i first bought it 15 years ago. after i found the vin on the frame i took the car back to the arizona motor vehicle department by my house and they verified the two numbers and issued me a new title with the frame vin. took an hour and a few bucks but worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 As others have mentioned, titling to an engine number, or a frame number, or both, was common. With no "VIN" in those days, what was used varied by state . I had a Nash with a unibody that had something like a VIN. Since there was no frame, it had a number that referred to the whole body/frame unit, just like the VIN of today. States weren't accustomed to that yet since it was not yet the usual way of doing things. Nashes in Washington were titled to this VIN-like number, except mine, it was titled to the engine number. I spoke with the original owner, and he told me he bought the car in Oregon, and brought it to Washington 7 years later. Apparently the Washington authorities just copied the number from the Oregon paperwork. This was only a problem because the block was cracked. It shouldn't have been a big deal because the cracked block with the correct number was in the still drivable car. I let that one go to another enthusiast who was more interested in dealing with the upcoming title issues than I was. It probably is an engine number. If it matches, there is nothing to do unless you need to change the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) You may want to find a cop that is a car guy (I had no trouble doing that when I went for my registration) and have him check the engine # vs the title info (after you have already verified it is a correct match for what’s on the title) get his name, badge # and a phone number if he is willing to give it to you. Then if the registration people give you a hard time tell them you had the police check it first and give them the cops info. They will most likely back off or worst case call him or go check the numbers themselves. It works pretty well. Edited October 17, 2017 by SC38DLS (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 The original engine number is stamped somewhere on the frame. In Plymouths of this era, it is on the frame rail near the left rear wheel; I'd suspect the same is true for Chrysler. You may want to consider posting on the p15-d24.com forum. There are also many knowledgeable Mopar folk there and you may get a better idea of the location of the frame number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Unless things have changed in PA no one "looks" at your car or where the ser # is located. They used to require a pencil rubbing of the number. If you can locate that number wherever it is just make the rubbing and send it along with the paper work. If you can't find the correct # or the engine number is different from the title then there is the possibility your title is not the correct title and there is the possibility the seller was not the rightful owner. Some folks when faced with that situation simply stamp the needed # on a piece of aluminum and use that to make the pencil rubbing. That will get you a title and plates but is just kicking the can down down the road............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pont35cpe Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 And if it doesn`t have the original engine it may not match.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobJohnson Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Found it! It matches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 9 minutes ago, BobJohnson said: Found it! It matches! Excellent! You're good to go. A tracing should be all you need......................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackofalltrades70 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Bhigdog said: Unless things have changed in PA no one "looks" at your car or where the ser # is located. They used to require a pencil rubbing of the number. If you can locate that number wherever it is just make the rubbing and send it along with the paper work. If you can't find the correct # or the engine number is different from the title then there is the possibility your title is not the correct title and there is the possibility the seller was not the rightful owner. Some folks when faced with that situation simply stamp the needed # on a piece of aluminum and use that to make the pencil rubbing. That will get you a title and plates but is just kicking the can down down the road............Bob Bob When I got my Pa plates/registration they told me to either take it to an inspection station to have the vin verified or bring it to them so they could physically look at the number on the plate. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, jackofalltrades70 said: Bob When I got my Pa plates/registration they told me to either take it to an inspection station to have the vin verified or bring it to them so they could physically look at the number on the plate. Matt How long ago was that Matt? As of 5 years ago it was a tracing. So maybe things HAVE changed.......................Bob Edited October 18, 2017 by Bhigdog (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vermontboy Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Penn Dot document dated September 2017 (pdf file) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0ahUKEwjHgNPl_PjWAhVJxGMKHUtZBEkQFgg3MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dot.state.pa.us%2Fpublic%2Fdvspubsforms%2FBMV%2FBMV%20Fact%20Sheets%2Ffs-vinverif.pdf&usg=AOvVaw18qfU4LSNysmHvAHAjG0iv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Thanks VB. It appears from the reading you provided that a tracing is still valid but NOW it must be authenticated by one of the the parties mentioned. That's new. The photo part is new also, it was only a tracing before. Still pretty liberal requirements.............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejboyd5 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 16 hours ago, BobJohnson said: Found it! It matches! Where did you find it? How about a picture to help others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 (edited) PA allows for "rubs" for titling from out of state. So if you can get a rub off the engine block there is a good chance they will just issue the title with that, though it will still be the block not the actual VIN. The term PennDot uses is "legible tracing". It's just kicking the can down the road but it could work. I agree with others, the worst thing to do is change the data plate. It's illegal for starters and goes downhill from there. From the factsheet I read Quote Visual verification shall be required in the following situations when it is impossible to obtain a legible tracing or photograph of the VIN So that means you only need someone else to verify when it's "impossible to obtain a legible tracing or photograph of the vin" Edited October 18, 2017 by Frantz (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin j Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 as long as there have been numbers stamped into places on cars they have been called VIN vehicle identification numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Because I was worried that some day my engine would need to be replaced, I talked the lady at the Ohio DMV to change the title to reflect the actual car's serial number rather than the engine number. Some people tell me I pulled a rabbit out of a hat on that one. Worth a try, in my opinion, especially if you bring the car to the DMV, show them that both numbers are permanently affixed to the car, etc. Tell them engines can be replaced, then you have a big problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 14 minutes ago, benjamin j said: as long as there have been numbers stamped into places on cars they have been called VIN vehicle identification numbers. By whom have they been called VIN vehicle identification numbers? I have original sales forms from the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's and they all have a line or space identified as "serial number" and some have a line or space identified as "engine number". I have never seen a form with the letters VIN or the words vehicle identification number until the last half of the 50's. A vehicle identification number (VIN) is a unique code, including a serial number, used by the automotive industry to identify individual motor vehicles, towed vehicles, motorcycles, scooters and mopeds, as defined in ISO 3833. VINs were first used in 1954 in the United States.[1] From 1954 to 1981, there was no accepted standard for these numbers, so different manufacturers used different formats. In 1981, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the United States standardized the format.[1] It required all on-road vehicles sold to contain a 17-character VIN, which does not include the letters I (i), O (o), and Q (q) (to avoid confusion with numerals 1 and 0). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Did you know there is a "secret" number in every VIN? If you go thru a sequence of adding, subtracting and multiplication of the other numbers in the VIN as directed you will arrive at the "secret" number. If you don't the VIN is fraudulent. Google VIN interpretation. It is interest what a VIN can actually tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 The VIN will tell you country of origin, manufacturer, division within manufacturer, weight/horsepower, platform (pickup, van, etc), Model, Model type (2 door, 4 door etc), engine, year, plant and production sequence. Of course only useful on cars new enough to have an actual VIN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Restorer32 said: Did you know there is a "secret" number in every VIN? If you go thru a sequence of adding, subtracting and multiplication of the other numbers in the VIN as directed you will arrive at the "secret" number. If you don't the VIN is fraudulent. Google VIN interpretation. It is interest what a VIN can actually tell you. It is not really a "secret" number. It is called a "check digit" to make sure that the information is correct. It is the 9th digit in a modern VIN#. 2 hours ago, Restorer32 said: The VIN will tell you country of origin, manufacturer, division within manufacturer, platform (pickup, van, etc), Model, Model type (2 door, 4 door etc), engine, year, and plant. That information is put into a formula and the number is spit out. It is used to help make sure the rest of the numbers have not been transposed or like a 7 or a 1. Here is the VIN information for GM cars, but it is the same format for all manufacturers since 1981. Edited October 18, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vila Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 I bought a 1964 Vespa scooter a year ago that was originally titled using the engine number for a PA to PA sale. There was a special form I had to complete to change the new registration from Engine to chassis (VIN) number. I had to have the local police stop by my house and they verified the two numbers and sign off the form. Took everything to PennDOT and they completed the transaction with no further issues. I would not deal with any of the private car title transfer companies that do car registration work. They don't know what they are doing if it is anything out of the ordinary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 On Auburns 1931 - 1936 The VIN number on the tag that is affixed to the cowl is 1,000 more than the frame number. If the car is supercharged there is a 3 prefix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobg1951chevy Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 On 10/17/2017 at 8:11 AM, BobJohnson said: Will try. But would like to make a new door tag with the proper serial number on it. Don't do it ! To make a new "unauthorized tag" gets you closer to felony charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobg1951chevy Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 11 hours ago, benjamin j said: as long as there have been numbers stamped into places on cars they have been called VIN vehicle identification numbers. No sir, they were called "serial numbers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobg1951chevy Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 On 10/17/2017 at 7:34 PM, BobJohnson said: Found it! It matches! Good for you AND your car ! My NC DMV issue is still not resolved, after one year and 9 days since the beginning of my DMV horror story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen_Dyneto Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) Bobg, sorry to disagree but except for the very earliest years Packards were registered by "vehicle numbers"; note this is not the same as "vehicle identification numbers". Just look at the title over the blank space of the patent plate for a typical Packard. Edited October 19, 2017 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin j Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 19 hours ago, West Peterson said: Because I was worried that some day my engine would need to be replaced, I talked the lady at the Ohio DMV to change the title to reflect the actual car's serial number rather than the engine number. Some people tell me I pulled a rabbit out of a hat on that one. Worth a try, in my opinion, especially if you bring the car to the DMV, show them that both numbers are permanently affixed to the car, etc. Tell them engines can be replaced, then you have a big problem. Notice how West uses the proper word ENGINE the meaning of the word is correct motor is not correct. serial numbers and vin numbers have the same meaning it is to identify the car and its parts. Don't get hung up on the words when it is the meaning that is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Benjamin Don't drag me into that argument!! Seriously, I would STILL attempt to get the title changed to reflect the car's "number" rather than the "engine's" number. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjamin j Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, West Peterson said: Benjamin Don't drag me into that argument!! Seriously, I would STILL attempt to get the title changed to reflect the car's "number" rather than the "engine's" number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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