On Ebay: 1964-65 BUICK RIVERA WILDCAT 3645 Carter Afb 2x4 Front Carburetor

[NC1968Riviera]

Not my listing

 

1964-65 BUICK RIVERA WILDCAT 3645 Carter Afb 2x4 Dual Quad CARBURETOR CARB GS

Buy it Now: $395.00

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-65-BUICK-RIVERA-WILDCAT-3645-Carter-Afb-2x4-Dual-Quad-CARBURETOR-CARB-GS-/222674426161?hash=item33d86e1931:g:w7wAAOSwRuFZ3o6~&vxp=mtr

Auction Listing Details:

RARE IN OUTSTANDING CONDITION ORIGINAL BUICK 3445 AFB FRONT CARBURETOR FOR THE FACTORY DUAL QUAD SETUP. the date code is ak3 january 1963.)
 

CARB WILL NEED A KIT INSTALLED SINCE IT WAS IN LONG TERM STORAGE.

 

This carburetor is 100% complete and not missing any parts. Nothing is stuck

and all moving parts move freely with no issues. Nothing is cracked or

damaged anywhere. The baseplate is nice with no cracks or damage, and

the mounting holes are in excellent shape. The overflow tubes are nice

and are not cracked, bent, or broken.

Edited October 12, 2017 by NCRiviera (see edit history)

[RivNut]

Strange. The date on the carb precedes the Super Wildcat option by at least nine months.  No dual four barrel carb setups were available in 1963.

 

The A is not part of the date code.  K is the month, 3 is the year. K is the 11th letter of the alphabet so this carb was built in November of 1963. That would be a build date for a 1964 model car.

 

It's truly amazing what some ebay  sellers DON'T  know when they try to sell something.  Then, unless you do your own research, you wind up buying something you can't use or that's not correct.  

 

How many times will a seller advertise a console for a 1963-1964-1965 Riviera when your research tells you that each year had a unique console just for that one year.

 

Caveat Emptor !!!!!

 

WHOA! I just went back and re-e-reader the eBay ad. "Overflow tubes"  What's this guy been smokin'?

Edited October 12, 2017 by RivNut (see edit history)

[Rivdrivn]

9 hours ago, RivNut said:

Strange. The date on the carb precedes the Super Wildcat option by at least nine months.  No dual four barrel carb setups were available in 1963.

 

The A is not part of the date code.  K is the month, 3 is the year. K is the 11th letter of the alphabet so this carb was built in November of 1963. That would be a build date for a 1964 model car.

 

It's truly amazing what some ebay  sellers DON'T  know when they try to sell something.  Then, unless you do your own research, you wind up buying something you can't use or that's not correct.  

 

So Ed, educate me on carb date codes. Here's one of my dual quad sets with what looks like 3645 SB C25 and 3925 SA AM3

[RivNut]

I Googled 'AFB date codes' and found a reference to a post on this forum where Jim Cannon wrote on coding the AFB. In that post, he stared that that only the last letter in the code applied to the date.  That worked well for the carb on his car and a couple of others he had, and the one in this post.  But, that system doesn't work for the AM3 carb you have.  M is the 13th letter of the alphabet; there's no 13th month.  Time to do some more research.  I'll see what else I can find.

[Rivdrivn]

33 minutes ago, RivNut said:

I Googled 'AFB date codes' and found a reference to a post on this forum where Jim Cannon wrote on coding the AFB. In that post, he stared that that only the last letter in the code applied to the date.  That worked well for the carb on his car and a couple of others he had, and the one in this post.  But, that system doesn't work for the AM3 carb you have.  M is the 13th letter of the alphabet; there's no 13th month.  Time to do some more research.  I'll see what else I can find.

Perhaps it's the 13th month of the production cycle?

[RivNut]

48 minutes ago, Rivdrivn said:

Perhaps it's the 13th month of the production cycle?

I just got a PM from a carb guru* who advised me that Carter did not use an I,  thinking it could be confused with a 1,  so M is the 12th month of the year.  M3 would be a December 1963 date code. When I enlarge the picture of the 3645 carb, I don't read the code you typed in, but it's not clear enough to decipher either.  Any chance you can confirm that C_5 number?

 

Ed

 

 

*Thank you Jon.

 

 

[Rivdrivn]

18 minutes ago, RivNut said:

I just got a PM from a carb guru* who advised me that Carter did not use an I,  thinking it could be confused with a 1,  so M is the 12th month of the year.  M3 would be a December 1963 date code. When I enlarge the picture of the 3645 carb, I don't read the code you typed in, but it's not clear enough to decipher either.  Any chance you can confirm that C_5 number?

 

Ed

 

 

*Thank you Jon.

 

 

Went out and took a better photo. It's CB5. February 1965. 

[Rivdrivn]

I also have 3645 S AF3, so they were apparently making dual quads as early as June of '63

[PWB]

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 7:16 AM, NCRiviera said:

Not my listing

 

1964-65 BUICK RIVERA WILDCAT 3645 Carter Afb 2x4 Dual Quad CARBURETOR CARB GS

Buy it Now: $395.00

 

You rattled the cage, Mike!

 

Evil Bay isn't all bad. Sometimes desperation calls for it:

I found an original one year off A.I.R. gold seal carb.

Needle in a haystack.

 

I overhauled it myself and it runs perfect.

 

Lady luck was good to me.

Edited October 13, 2017 by PWB (see edit history)

[NC1968Riviera]

14 minutes ago, PWB said:

You rattled the cage

Making the community aware of items for sale on Ebay is not a bad thing, as you alluded to. I leave it to the experts to determine if the listed items are truly as described.

Everyone has an opinion!

[msdminc]

All,

 

A lot of times component suppliers like Carter, Rochester, Guide, Harrison, Packard Electric or any of the others would have to produce their components months in advance of when they would be put into the vehicle during the final assembly process.  The car division (Buick in this case) made a decision to do a dual quad set up for 1964.  That decision was done well in advance, maybe 9-12 months before they would actually need the parts.  They would most likely get some pre-productions ones that they could use to test on the engine and then in the pre-production cars.  This would allow Buick to determine what the Torque and Horsepower results would occur.  The GM Proving Grounds or other testing facilities would do this evaluation and these tests are all done a long time before the production would start.  The pre-production cars would never be sold.  As you might imagine the suppliers of components would have to get their act together quite a long time before production.  This would mean that carburetors with very early 1963 dates would be easily explained on 1964 production cars, since 1964 vehicle production could start in the summer of 1963 with Pilot and early production saleable cars.  

 

Additionally, the car divisions would provide the suppliers production forecasts as early as they could of the various components they would need for production.  In the 1960s we didn't have the Just-In-Time or Kanban theories being used to much extent in domestic auto plants.  That means that Carter could have taken the production forecast and stock piled the parts and ship to the Motor Plant when they got orders.  This projected order would also impact the unit cost Buick would have to pay for the components.  With concept that lowest cost is preferred, therefore many decisions in the supply chain would have been made to keep the cost as low as possible.  That would impact order sizes and production batch size at the component supplier.  Storage of completed product and cost of inventory would also be considered.  Warehouse storage was cheap in those days.  Component suppliers like Carter would also have to let their suppliers know what, when and how many parts they would need so this same thing propagates through the entire supply chain.

 

In today's environment, with JIT and Kanban, which basically started in Japan in the 1950's but didn't really take on in the US until the 1980's, the idea is not to get too many parts built and in the system until is was really needed.  They don't want to have situations where scrap is built or campaigns are required to fix components in the system, so make the parts as close to when you are going to use the is best.  Not so before around 1980.

 

I worked for GM as an engineer and one of it subsidiaries for over 30 years.  So I have seen some of this in real time.

 

I hope this helps clarify the date codes and disparity between the code on the carb and its use.

 

Rock On

 

gord

[1965rivgs]

On 10/12/2017 at 11:05 AM, RivNut said:

The A is not part of the date code.  K is the month, 3 is the year. K is the 11th letter of the alphabet so this carb was built in November of 1963. That would be a build date for a 1964 model car.

 

 

It has been awhile since I researched this (maybe 25 years?) but I`m quite sure one of the alpha characters is the month and the other is the week.

  Tom Mooney

[1965rivgs]

On 10/12/2017 at 8:25 PM, Rivdrivn said:

So Ed, educate me on carb date codes. Here's one of my dual quad sets with what looks like 3645 SB C25 and 3925 SA AM3

Steve,

  Notice the font and depth of the stamp in your 3925 SA carb does not match the 3645 SB carb or even the date which is stamped under the 3925 SA? This 3925 SA carb was recalibrated/restamped from another carb, likely by Carter. I will bet if you look very, very closely you will find another number, in the same font and depth as the 3645 SB carb above, underneath the 3925 SA stamp.

  Tom Mooney

Edited October 15, 2017 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[RivNut]

I took what I posted from Jim Cannon's comment in post #4 in this thread.

 

After reading Jim's post #4, scroll down and read Jon Hardgove's complete dossier in post #9.  

Edited October 15, 2017 by RivNut (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

10 hours ago, RivNut said:

I took what I posted from Jim Cannon's comment in post #4 in this thread.

 

After reading Jim's post #4, scroll down and read Jon Hardgove's complete dossier in post #9.  

See post #2, then # 7 and #8. Post #4 is inaccurate. The 3 character alpha/numeric is most definitely the date code and not part of the carb model number. The carb revisions are very well explained in Jon`s post but I am surprised he has found no documentation in Carter literature..because there is plenty in Buick literature, especially regarding the `64-`65 dual quad carbs. The info is included in both the Buick Service Bulletins and Parts Books. For instance, in `65 the trunion on the front carb was modified from a solid block, which promoted throttle sticking, to a "stirrup" design with less contact area. This revision prompted a different alpha character at the end of the carb model number as per Jon`s description. This is an example of the many little things I inspect when evaluating an "early" GS from a "late" GS....again, 25 year old research,

  Tom Mooney

[Rivdrivn]

19 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Steve,

  Notice the font and depth of the stamp in your 3925 SA carb does not match the 3645 SB carb or even the date which is stamped under the 3925 SA? This 3925 SA carb was recalibrated/restamped from another carb, likely by Carter. I will bet if you look very, very closely you will find another number, in the same font and depth as the 3645 SB carb above, underneath the 3925 SA stamp.

  Tom Mooney

Yes, it was originally a 3646 S (1964 rear carb) which makes perfect sense as it came with my very early production 1965 dual quad car. I imagine recycling leftover parts could have been common practice on early cars. Have you seen much evidence for this?

[1965rivgs]

3 hours ago, Rivdrivn said:

Yes, it was originally a 3646 S (1964 rear carb) which makes perfect sense as it came with my very early production 1965 dual quad car. I imagine recycling leftover parts could have been common practice on early cars. Have you seen much evidence for this?

Yes...years ago when rebuilding an AFB I noticed an overstamp and dismissed it as a rebuilders mark. Quite a few years later I stumbled across concrete evidence the overstamped carb had been factory installed. I have seen a handful since.

I have also encountered yet another different font without any overstamp. I believe these carbs were manufactured by Rochester after they took over Carter.

  Tom

Edited October 16, 2017 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[Jim Cannon]

On 10/14/2017 at 9:10 PM, RivNut said:

I took what I posted from Jim Cannon's comment in post #4 in this thread.

 

After reading Jim's post #4, scroll down and read Jon Hardgove's complete dossier in post #9.  

 

Ed and all-

In that thread I later posted in #8 that my comment only applied to 1963 models, not later models.

 

I do not know how to date later carbs.