Speedster Builds.............

[Gary_Ash]

Forming of aluminum skin for a car can be done with simple tools, like a stump and mallet plus a Harbor Freight english wheel.  The stump with a bowl cut into the top surface gets used for shrinking to draw in the edges for bowl shapes.  Then the resulting wrinkles get ironed out in the English wheel, plus the wheel is used for stretching.  

 

The $300 Harbor Freight wheels are OK, but most need at least a little tuning.  On mine, there was about 0.010" run-out of the large wheel, which I had corrected at a local machine shop.  The smaller anvil wheels were good enough.  Wray Schelin at Proshaper.com advocates rounding the edges of the wheels to reduce unwanted marks on the aluminum and polishing the wheel surfaces to a mirror finish.  None of this is very complicated or time consuming.  See his YouTube videos about this:  https://www.proshaper.com/youtube/.

 

Remember, though, that unless you plan on riveting the metal together like an airplane, you also need to learn to AC TIG weld thin aluminum and grind down the seams to invisibility  to assemble the body.  

 

The biggest thing his kit for HF wheels does is turn the C-frame upside down so that the adjuster is at the top.  This lets you form deeper shapes that can wrap underneath the anvil as you work.  However, plenty of people have used HF wheels without this mod.  Could the HF frame be stiffer?  Yes, but it's good enough to make the car shown above.  Wray has 3 or 4 of the HF wheels in his shop, plus 6 or 7 of his own design, bigger and stiffer but they cost $7,000-$13,000.  Here is his top-end "Papa Bear" wheel.  The other photo shows student Davey working on a modified HF wheel making a tubular piece in Wray's shop.  Note the mirror finish he is getting from the polished wheel.

 

  

Edited May 4, 2019 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Gary, Do you happen to have a good side shot of the HF English wheel turned upside down so I can get a good idea of what to do should I choose to make that conversion to my unit.  Also, cutting a bowl in a stump.  That sounds seriously crude but must be effective to give a start to forming a "deep" shape.  Here is a couple of questions for you.  Should the bowl be less deep than the finished shape to fit the buck?  What should the raw OD of the bowl be for best starting results?  You refer to the AC TIG method of joining formed aluminum body panels; have you considered the use of a gas torch?  I have considered the use of welded on frame stiffners for my HF English wheel unit, to keep the side movement to a low level during the wheeling process.  Thanks for your thoughts, most welcomed as I know that you have exercised your learning curve on this very subject!

Al

[Gary_Ash]

See this page for details on the HF wheel mods:  http://www.proshaper.com/product/harbor-freight-english-wheel-conversion-kit/

I don't think you need to worry about side movements of the frame as the metal being wheeled is supposed to be moving perpendicular to the wheel axis.

 

Here's a link to Wray making a mini Jaguar fender:  https://youtu.be/LGQ7JKpMIs0.  You can see one of his stumps pretty well and how he uses it.  No magic in the dimensions, but maybe the bowl is 10"-14" across with a deep end (~2") and shallow end.  If you can't get to Wray's classes, this video covers many of the basic techniques and equipment.  We lost a couple of big trees in a winter storm last year, so I saved some pieces of the trunk for a stump.  I made a bunch of cuts with my circular saw, chiseled out the remains, and sanded with a flap wheel in an angle grinder.  See photos below.  Wray made several "Home Depot" stumps using a bunch of pieces of 2x6's or 2x8's stacked together with the 2" edges up.  

 

On TIG versus torch, there are many opinions and debates.  I also took Kent White's 4-day class at Tinmantech in California - he's a big proponent of the torch, sells all the equipment.  See https://www.tinmantech.com/.  Wray is solidly in the TIG camp, but respects using the torch for some tasks, has been experimenting using hydrogen/oxygen fuel for a hotter flame.  With the torch, you need to apply flux and clean it off later in hot water.  With TIG, the heat affected zone is narrower, sometimes a benefit, and you don't need flux.  A torch setup may be less expensive, though still not cheap when you get a nice, small torch, gas regulators, tanks, goggles with special glass filter, etc.  Everlast sells a small digital inverter AC/DC TIG/stick welder for $850 that will weld aluminum, stainless, etc. up to about 3/16" thick.  I sprung for the PowerTIG 210 EXT with a little more power.  I also have the acetylene/oxygen gas torch setup.  I'm not very good at either welding technique, probably need 50-100 hours of practice to be decent.

See https://www.everlastgenerators.com/product/tig-stick/powertig-185-dv   

[alsfarms]

I am going to need to get after one of the home-made stump bowls...........(as per the picture)

Most of the trees we have out here in the west may be a bit different but should work.  We have lots of Elm.  If I can find a "dry" trunk to work with it may not split, which is a problem.

Al

[Gary_Ash]

Al, don't forget that you can take the "Home Depot" route and assemble a "stump" or "shrinking facilitator" from 2x6s.  Wrap Schelin likes to line all types of stumps with EPDM rubber roofing sheet to prevent marring the metal and protect the stump.  For $0.99 you can watch his "premium video" on how to build one.

See http://www.proshaper.com/premium-videos/.  Here's a snip of the facilitator with the rubber sheet.

 

 

[alsfarms]

Hello Gary,

As a matter of methodology in stretching or shrinking aluminum, I have a question.  When using the stump, how hard do you pound the wide faced dolly hammer on the aluminum and into the "stump" ?  Is it better to simply get after the project and use forceful blows or is it better to use more sophisticated, (well placed) and lighter repeat blows?

Al

[Gary_Ash]

The short answer is Yes.  If you need to move the metal a lot, say an inch or more, you'll need to make a bunch of big walnuts in the metal and wheel them out to stretch.  Then match the metal up to the buck to see if you are close, then hit it again.  If the metal needs to be moved only 1/16th inch, then a few light taps in the middle of the low spot and lighter ones around the outside will gradually get you there.  Making a paper pattern on the buck before you start hammering will show how much shrink/stretch you need and where to put it.  Go to the Proshaper.com website and watch the four videos (free) about making a fender for a E-type Jaguar to see how Wray Schelin does it.

 

Ed Barr is a professor at McPherson College, the only place that formally teaches auto restoration in the U.S.  He wrote an excellent paperback book called Professional Sheet Metal Fabrication and has a new book coming out May 21.  They are both available on Amazon for $27 or so.  Ed's techniques are a lot like Wray's.   There are lots of good, clear color photos and well-written descriptions of processes in the books.  

 

However, reading books and watching videos - or reading what I'm blabbing about - doesn't really capture the feel of the process.  So, get yourself on a plane and come to Wray's in Charlton, Mass. for a Friday-through-Monday course.  In four long days, 9:00 am to 10:00 pm, you'll learn a lot.  You won't be an expert after four days, but you'll get a very good sense of where to spend your time learning new skills.  You'll save your self a lot of time and frustration on a project.  Let me know when you are coming and I'll meet you there.

[alsfarms]

Slightly off the speedster build subject but I thought I would remind everyone, that a very important thing took place in Utah history in just a couple of days plus 150 years.  On that day 150 years ago, technology for the whole USA was improved with the driving of the last spike to complete the first transcontinental railroad  from one coast to the other coast.  Utah and everyone able  is celebrating this week at Promontory point with a reenactment of the driving of the "Golden Spike" to finish the rail line.  Also to be seen, is the restored and running of the newly restored to full operation condition, the largest steam engine built in the World called Big Boy, (#4014).  This steam engine and another sister steam engine are making the trip from Cheyenne Wyo. to Ogden Utah and will be on display at the Ogden Central Rail Station for this 150 year celebration.  Without the development of the rail system, I truly doubt that we would be enjoying the antique hobby as we are now.  It has taken generations of technical development, communication improvement and commerce to set the stage for the auto industry that we revere today.  If you have not, check out Golden Spike and Big Boy on You Tube.  You can't help but stand up just a bit more proudly for the accomplishments of our forefathers.  The Bog Boy steam engine is truly a speedster in another form that is very impressive! 

Al

[Spinneyhill]

21 hours ago, alsfarms said:

You can't help but stand up just a bit more proudly for the accomplishments of our forefathers. 

How do the Native Americans see it?

 

There is talk here of a celebration later this year of 250 years since James Cook "discovered" this country. It began the colonisation and decline of the Māori people and they are still paying for welcoming European settlers into the country.

[alsfarms]

What recommendations can be shared here in choosing the right tool to remove these valve cages with out doing collateral damage?  The 6 flat cap is 1-3/4" across the flats and the 8 flat cap is 2-1/2" across the flats.  I can tell that a pipe wrench has been used in a crude attempt in the past, and that is a terrible idea.

Al

[Chris Bamford]

12 hours ago, alsfarms said:

What recommendations can be shared here in choosing the right tool to remove these valve cages with out doing collateral damage?  The 6 flat cap is 1-3/4" across the flats and the 8 flat cap is 2-1/2" across the flats.

Al

 

 

I would grab some 3/14" or 1/4" flat stock and carefully lay out and drill/cut/file hexagonal holes to snugly fit the flats (once the pipe wrench damage was tidied up with a file). One hole at each end and maybe 18-24" long if you have space to swing it.

 

A worthwhile embellishment (whether or not one makes a custom wrench), is to use the centre spark plug or priming cup hole to secure the wrench... fashion a heavy steel washer larger OD than the wrench OD and use something threaded into the centre hole to run it up tight against the wrench. That way you can carefully clobber the wrench with little danger of it flying off or damaging the flats.

[alsfarms]

Hello Chris,

I try to think of all the angles but your idea of retaining the wrench to the cap via the center spark plug hole is something that I had not considered!  Thanks for the idea.  I may get a custom wrench cut out with a CNC plasma cutter, then finish the fit with a file to get the best fit possible.  I would then have a go at getting the caps out of the way for additional work to the valves and jugs.

Thanks again for your comment, that is the great thing about these forums!

Al

[JV Puleo]

I am pretty sure you can get a huge pressed steel six-point socket...I may even have one. I'll check.

 

jp

[alsfarms]

Hello Joe,  I am concerned that a pressed socket or slugger wrench may flex a bit and foul the corners of the valve cage cap.  But, If you happen to have aspare and loose socket I would consider it.

Al

[JV Puleo]

I'll check - you actually caught me at my computer!

 

jp

[AHa]

I wouldn't recommend a socket for this project. In my opinion, you need to be able to see what is happening. A socket can round the edges before you know what is happening.

Edited May 12, 2019 by AHa (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Al,

I absolutely agree with you.  A socket will be my last choice and NO 12 point.  I think also that you run a big risk of the socket moving during the whammer exercise and potentially round or damage the corners of the cap. 

Al

[JV Puleo]

I checked and everything I have is either too big or too small.

Actually, I've used a six-point impact socket for this before with no problems...without the impact gun of course. I think it depends on how accurate the flats are.

I'm not certain what other alternatives there are. I suppose some sort of wrench could be made with little set screws in the lower edge so they could be tightened against the flats. It would be a rather elaborate undertaking.

[alsfarms]

Thanks Joe,  I have several options floating around.  I absolutely do not want to bugger up the valve caps during the removal process!

Al

[1912Staver]

I would suggest constructing a temporary  firebrick kiln and slowly heating the entire block assembly to a good heat { 500 - 600 deg. or so }. Then let it slowly cool. The differing expansion rates will break the bond between the caps and the Iron block.  You need to get things pretty hot but obviously less than the brass melting temp. Local heating with a rosebud torch may work but runs the risk of cracking the Iron.  For safety sake I would heat it as a whole . 

 

Heat ,used sensibly is your best friend when dismantling things this old.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited May 17, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Greg,

That is a valid thought.  If I were going to make a Nickle weld repair to a jug that had an external water jacket crack due to freezing, I certainly would figure out a way to soak the whole jug, prep, and weld about 1/2" at a time then peen extensively to relieve the stress from welding.  I have good luck with that process.   I hadn't thought of going to that effort to remove the valve caps.  First I will probably build a couple of good fitting custom flat bar wrenches then attach the wrench to the  cap then determine if I need some heat or lots of heat to get them to come loose.  I do not want to damage either the valve cage cap or the jug.

Al

Edited May 17, 2019 by alsfarms
spelling (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

In as much as this forum area is for the discussion about building speedsters, I thought I would share a few pictures, of some cars, from a museum I visited on a recent vacation trip.  These pictures can simply give us a bit of a boost to spend more time building our own cars with the following special/speedster/race cars being used for inspiration.  I hope you enjoy these...... 

Al

late series Stutz, is it a Bearcat or Bulldog?

[alsfarms]

surely an MG-TC has design beauty that is timeless!

[alsfarms]

surely the Auburn Speedster is one of those eye catching designs......

[alsfarms]

what a nice sporty Bugatti, I would like to ride in one of these sometime, if I live long enough.......

[alsfarms]

I am not much familiar with the Alfa-Romeo, but this is a great looking red sports car......

[alsfarms]

lastly here is a true home built Buick "Speedster".  An interesting car from the mid 1920's...........

[alsfarms]

Finally, if you look at the background of each picture you will note a wide variety of nice cars.  This museum ranges from very early cars as in 1900 Locomobile to high performance sports cars of the 1960's and even a few well done hot rods and everything in between.

Al

[Mark Shaw]

On 2/7/2019 at 7:59 AM, alsfarms said:

If you have experience setting up and running your automobile on this pressurized fuel tank system please share your "DO's" and "Don't's". 

alsfarms,

     25 years ago, my 1913 Model 31 Buick ran out of gas climbing hills.  That problem was solved with a simple plumbing arrangement with no moving parts.

 

Most brass era Buicks originally had a heat tube connected from the exhaust manifold to a jacket on a Marvel carburetor to preheat the air/fuel mixture.  Since modern gasoline does not need to be pre-heated to atomize, most Buick drivers installed a pipe plug in the manifold and removed the tubing. 

 

My father and I removed the pipe plug and installed a street ell in the manifold and ran 3/8" copper tubing through a spark arrestor and soldered it into the top of the gas cap (A rubber tubing connector allows cap removal).  The vent hole in the cap is sealed and a rubber gas cap gasket was installed.  Low pressure exhaust gently pushes the fuel into the carburetor without causing it to overcome the carburetor float valve.   My Buick has been running up and down hills for many years now with no fuel delivery issues.  Several skeptics have commented that someday it will explode.  With only exhaust in the tank, it cannot ignite.  I just explain, that the spark arrestor is just for start-up when air might get into the tank after refills.  

      

[alsfarms]

Hello Mark,

Please post a few pictures of your fuel delivery system, on the Buick, here.

Thanks,

Al

[JV Puleo]

1 hour ago, Mark Shaw said:

My father and I removed the pipe plug and installed a street ell in the manifold and ran 3/8" copper tubing through a spark arrestor and soldered it into the top of the gas cap (A rubber tubing connector allows cap removal).  The vent hole in the cap is sealed and a rubber gas cap gasket was installed.  Low pressure exhaust gently pushes the fuel into the carburetor without causing it to overcome the carburetor float valve.   My Buick has been running up and down hills for many years now with no fuel delivery issues.  Several skeptics have commented that someday it will explode.  With only exhaust in the tank, it cannot ignite.  I just explain, that the spark arrestor is just for start-up when air might get into the tank after refills.  

      

 

What did you use as the spark arrestor? I'm thinking of doing the same thing with my 1910 Mitchell. A quick google search only turns up big ones for exhaust systems. I could make one if I had a good idea what it consisted of.

Edited June 1, 2019 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

We made one from a tubular glass fuel filter.  Just replace the fuel filter with Stainless steel wool.  

[alsfarms]

Hello Mark,

How tight would you cram the steel wool into the glass bowl, loose?

Al

[Mark Shaw]

5 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

How tight would you cram the steel wool into the glass bowl, loose?

Just enough to filter any sparks and not restrict flow. 

If you cram it too tight, it may plug up with carbon when you're choking to start or running rich.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

That is a very good idea... and I have one of these fuel filters in my "junk" box.

Do you know what pressure it generates? I have a period pressure gauge that goes up to 4 lbs. that I'd like to incorporate into the system.

Edited June 2, 2019 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Chris Bamford]

I ran an exhaust pressure fuel system on my ‘12 KisselKar for a while. It created about a half-pound pressure in the tank. Agree there is no appreciable danger in this approach. 

 

I now pressurize the fuel tank with a vintage air pump. One pound pressure is plenty for any hill. 

 

The carburetor is a BB-1. 

[1912Staver]

On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 8:34 AM, alsfarms said:

surely an MG-TC has design beauty that is timeless!

 

I am a big MG fan . However as far as TC's are concerned I find their performance very underwhelming. Gorgeous cars to look at, just way underpowered for North America. And very small inside. You need to be quite a compact person to feel comfortable. MGA's don't have the visual charm but are so much more satisfactory to drive. 

 

Greg in Canada

[alsfarms]

Hello Greg,

TO me the MG-TC is simply the definition of a true sports car.  I like them even better than the TD or TF versions.  Now I also agree, they are under powered for our long US roads.  Would I turn one down if offered to my, way no!  I am 5'10" and am at the top of the best possible fit in a TC.

Thanks for the comments.....

Al

[alsfarms]

Hello Chris,

Do you happen to have any pictures of your exhaust pressurized fuel system?  I would be anxious to see how you did the install.

Al

[alsfarms]

Please refer back to page 9, of this forum, where I show and discuss the pieces of my exhaust pressure fuel delivery system.  That system utilizes a special device that was built just to accommodate fuel delivery with consideration to exhaust gases, heat and fire potential.  That little gizmo has a water charged cooling chamber to knock down the heat of combustion before  any pressurized exhaust gases reach the fuel tank.  This system can and does control the pressure to an optimum pressure of 3 psi or slightly less.  What a novel design to accomplish what all gasoline automobiles need to run, get vaporized gas to the cylinders.

Al