JV Puleo Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, alsfarms said: Joe, I will see what I can get from you regarding the tag on my battery box. Do you want measurements from the box and lid along with the picture of the tag? I may also build another box to go on the running board of the Locomobile. The box I have is one of the few that actually still have the correct battery box tag on it. Most battery boxes are converted tool boxes. Al I'm not too concerned about the location of the tag because I'd probably make the box to fit whatever battery I'm using. I just thought it was the sort of tiny detail that makes such a difference in making things look "right." (even if they aren't!) Edited November 19, 2017 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 19, 2017 Author Share Posted November 19, 2017 Joe, I will get you as good a picture as I can. It may be a couple of days as we are ramping up for the big Thanksgiving Day family get together. But I am sure I can get a picture that will help you out. If you get to the point of etching duplicate plates, there very well could be others among us that would be interested, I being one. you are right about one thing, it is generally the small be finely done steps that make for a good end product not just a fair product. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpeeler Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Count me in on the tag as well - very nice detail! David 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 19, 2017 Author Share Posted November 19, 2017 Another thought on the tag. Terry if you are here, is the tag something that your process could duplicate? You have made some very nice duplicate tags in the past. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 12 hours ago, JV Puleo said: I am curious about the 16,000 tubes... Joe, you are right. The number was told to me 30 years ago and I remember being shocked. Maybe it was 6 or 8? It was a lot. As a guy with a math degree you think I would have done some quick calculations to see 16k didn't make sense :). The thing with the 500k/540k/SS radiators is that the cars are worth anywhere from 800k to uncountable, so swallowing hard on a 50k radiator is par for the course. The fuel pumps on those cars are around 10k if you can find one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, alsancle said: The thing with the 500k/540k/SS radiators is that the cars are worth anywhere from 800k to uncountable, so swallowing hard on a 50k radiator is par for the course. The fuel pumps on those cars are around 10k if you can find one. Here's where I come off sounding like a Bolshevik... why should the radiator cost 10 times as much for a half million dollar car as for a $50,000 car? It may be a complicated shape and need special tooling but 10 times as much? I remember a friend of mine trying to buy a muffler to use on an iron head PI... the seller asked what car it was going go. My friend should have said a Packard, which is what it was originally made for but instead he told the truth at which point the price doubled. Needless to say, no sale was made. Were I making a part for someone, I would not price it according to how much the car was worth, nor can I see anyone else doing so unless it's a bald faced "soak the rich" scheme. That said, I get the distinct feeling that some people just like to brag about how much they can afford to spend and thus want to be soaked... Edited November 19, 2017 by JV Puleo extra word that wasn't needed (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 I think there is some of what you say, but if you look at that radiator and think about the amount of hand work and chrome, you can see why they are so expensive. You wouldn't find that piece on a lesser car, but if you did and that car needed a new radiator I think that would be the end of the car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Terry is a lot better at making the tags... I've got to work on my technique. Here's one I made. The Pendleton Mfg. Co. was my great grandfather... this is really a joke tag... made to confound my relatives who are fascinated by genealogy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 19, 2017 Author Share Posted November 19, 2017 I do agree with the comment that it does depend on the end value of the car if it can justify the heavy cost of restoration. Some cars, even rare cars, do not have the following and thus softer resale prices. Softer prices are a significant factor when it comes to deciding which car we want to restore and how much we can pay for it. The cost of a commercial restoration, done in a 'by the hour' shop encourages many of us to try and do as much as we can to keep the wild overhead down. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) Joe, There is nothing wrong with that etched plate - it looks great! Quote The cost of a commercial restoration, done in a 'by the hour' shop encourages many of us to try and do as much as we can to keep the wild overhead down. Alan, I agree! That's what has driven me to do so much and learn a bunch of new skills. Pattern & core box work, etching, machine work etc. Recently I got a quote for Babbitt work. While I have no doubt the shop does and will do fantastic work and I would love to have them do it - its simply not in the cards. So... I am now working on getting setup to pour my own next spring. As Joe pointed out to me... if I fail what have I lost? Just time and material and gained a learning experience. I am also working on the last water fitting. When I acquired the big Wisconsin all the brass fittings had long since disappeared and I had to fabricate a lot of patterns for a lot of missing parts. Now I am down to just one last pattern. the infamous "impossible part". It looks innocent enough but that double 90 and tapper are not nice. For the past few years - for complex patterns such as this - I model in 3D then either 3D print the pattern or use the CNC mill. However, its shape is such that the 3D modeling programs don't like it. So the game plan is to scan it then I will have a file to work with. All good fun! Edited November 19, 2017 by Terry Harper (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) Hello Terry, Yes, what a troublesome piece. I am still hoping that the front fitting that ties to the water pump on your Wisconsin P is the same as what is found on my Wisconsin M. My original item was originally a one piece unit cast from aluminum. Would any of my original piece be of value to you as you go about the pattern building process? Alan Edited November 20, 2017 by alsfarms spelling (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 Terry, After comparing your piece with my piece, I think I have the front piece and your piece is the back? Your engine being a 6 would have a back, middle and front whereas my engine being a 4 would only have the back and front. In your thoughts, am I seeing the correct picture? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) Hello Alan, Yes, the piece is the rear or back fitting. I had to fabricate all three - front, middle and rear. Here is a photo of the pattern for the front and some views of the original. Note that the horizontal leg is longer than original. I did this for work holding - once machined it would be trimmed back to the correct length and counter bored. Edited November 20, 2017 by Terry Harper (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 Hello Terry, Your picture of the water pump side of a Lombard tractor shows me some detail I was thinking about. How close are you to having these lower water fittings cast? I would certainly like to be in for a front and rear piece when you go to the foundry. Is the Lombard tractor a 6 volt system or a 12 volt system? The early Seagrave, from the factory, was designed for 12 volts. (My engine came from a Seagrave factory installation). Do you happen to have a similar picture but one that shows the starter side of the engine? I am anxious to see the starter arrangement used by Lombard to turn over this huge P series Wisconsin engine. Thanks for posting these pictures. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Hello Al, I am still a ways out on the castings. I wanted to get all the lower water manifold parts cast at one time. The system is 12 volt. It uses a huge Leece-Neville starter which I do not have. Here is a photo of the intake side: In the photo below you can see the starter mount on the side of the oil pan. Its kind of hidden by the wood blocks. The Bendix sticks out behind the ring gear and pulls in towards the starter. Here is a good photo for size comparison 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 Hello Terry, I thought my starter mounting may be different but I think not. Your engine and my engine are very close. I will post a few pictures of the starter location on my engine. Do you know, does your original design starter drive through a gear reduction system? My Seagrave starter assembly unit is gear reduction. Please keep me in mind when you go to the foundry for your lower water pipe castings. That will be about the last major item that I am missing. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Ok.. so yours is a bit different - being hung off the motor mount. There is no gear reduction in mine. Below is a photo of Lew's AM. Except for the fact that his is mounted off the side of the crankcase (being a marine version the crankcase is very shallow) as opposed to the side of the oil pan (as mine is) its identical to what I have. My starter is a Leece-Neville 404M. Wish I could find one! Just found a period article about a firm using a Lombard to clear farm land in New Jersey - they described how they would crank it over by hand using a rope and several guys pulling on it! I will keep you in mind in regards to the castings! Leece-Neville Starter 404M Generator 496G .pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 Hello Terry, From the picture of the starter above. Does your system use some kind of a support bracket that guides and supports the end nose of the starter drive? If so, what does that bracket attach to? I also note some real similarity between your starter and the starter on my 1913 American-LaFrance hose car. I will see if I can get a picture and evaluate. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 Terry, If you get a chance, would you measure the OD of your WIsconsin flywheel and share the ring gear pitch. I am curious to verify if my 4 cylinder Wisconsin was spec'd. out different, (different flywheel and starter) as it was factory installed in a Seagrave truck. Due to the very large displacement of the Seagrave engines, (per Marc and Chase), they used a 12 volt system to have enough 'beans' to crank them over. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Hello Alan, I regards to supporting the end of the starter - no! The only support is on the body of the starter itself which is held into the bracket with a metal strap. I am curious about the starter on your La France. I will see if I can get a diameter for the starter. In regards to the flywheel - the specs show a dimension of 20" dia. but that doesn't appear to include the ring gear. I will dig it out and see what we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Here is the starter and generator info. Leece-Neville Starter 404M Generator 496G .pdf If I could find one of these (and the generator) I would be doing back flips! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 Terry and other interested in what a starter looks like from an early American-LaFrance fire truck looks like. I post three pictures and give a few basic measurements. The unit is a Westinghouse, OD of 5.5", 17.5" total length, 10" total body length and 7.75" drive total length. If any of you have one of these laying around I could put it to good use. Terry, I wonder if this Westinghouse would make or meet the same specification as what you are looking for? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 22, 2017 Author Share Posted November 22, 2017 For those interested in what an original Edison Battery box looks like here are some pictures. If you have any additional questions, drop a note. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 While taking pictures and measuring the box, I made an observation or two. One observation is that both positive and negative leads went out through the same round opening in the upper back. The second observation is that the height of the hole would suggest the maximum height the battery should be. Both leads would not be that large, based on the size of the hole. That surprises me as most 6 volt systems I have been around use larger heavy leads to allow for current flow. Does anyone have specifications on early 6 volt systems of 1920 or earlier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 But... was this for a 6 volt system with a starter? Prior to WWI, electrical systems came in a variety of voltages. I've seen reference to 6, 12, 14 and 18 volts. Until the starter came along, it wasn't something that was standardized. I don't think 6 volt became the American "standard" until the 20s and it wasn't universally adopted even then. American SG RRs were 12 volt up to almost the end of production and were only changed to 6 because customers were complaining that it wasn't easy to find a 12V battery outside a major city. I think this is why your plate is actually marked "6 volt"... Had this been the voltage that nearly everyone used, it might not be marked at all. If it was a 6v system strictly for lighting and ignition, the leads don't have to be all that heavy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 I had not thought of in in that light. If a big engine was not to be started with the battery, smaller leads would certainly be adequate. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 23, 2017 Author Share Posted November 23, 2017 Do any other American-LaFrance speedster or firetruck builders visit here? I have a couple of questions about the multi-disc clutch used by Alf. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc1122 Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Al, i have 2 ALF drivetrains. A 1924 and a 1929. Both t heads and chain drive. What could I help with? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 Marc, I have the feeling that Alf used two different clutch MFG's. Can you get to your clutches and verify for me what type clutch they are? You should see a small riveted MFG. plate on the body of the clutch housing. I will try to post a picture tomorrow. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 Share your experience with the American-LaFrance clutch assembly if you can. Is this the only type clutch they used? I have heard of a "Helleshaw" also. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc1122 Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 Al, just got in this evening and checked the clutch on the 29 lafrance. It Looks the same as yours with same tag. I will check the 24 next day or two. marc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 25, 2017 Author Share Posted November 25, 2017 Marc, Are you still messing around in the fields.....hahaha. Did you have a good Thanksgiving? Ours here in Utah was a 126 year record breaker for a warm Thanksgiving day and it was nice. A friend brought over his "T" bucket roadster and we did some cruising after Thanksgiving dinner. I will watch to see if your earlier Alf clutch is the same as the later one. I am also curious what you new Seagrave rig has for a clutch. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc1122 Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 Al, just got back in the fields yesterday. 3 inches of rain this past weekend.but it was a beautiful thanksgiving day weather wise here. First day I am home in the daylight again I will check the seagrave and 24 lafrance clutches. marc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 Marc, Are your Alf drive-trains complete with all the linkages? Do you have the cast aluminum floor boards? Are your body side pieces that the floor boards mount to cast iron or cast aluminum? I don't recall if we have chatted about those items in the past, but my early Alf pieces are cast aluminum including the firewall. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Hi Al , I have seen several similar battery boxes over the years but yours is the only one with the Edison I.D. tag. Very nice ! Greg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc1122 Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 Al, the 24 lafrance is cast aluminum floorboards and cowl. It is chain drive and complete with all the linkages. The 29 lafrance is a steel cowl with aluminum floorboards. It is left hand drive, center shift, chain drive. The seagrave are both right hand drive, outboard shifters, shaft drive. They both have really neat looking rounded cast aluminum cowls with aluminum floorboards. marc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 Greg, Do you still have a brass project moving along? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 26, 2017 Author Share Posted November 26, 2017 (edited) Marc, I don't recall if I have shared a couple of pictures of my cast aluminum firewall. This particular firewall is the narrow type which means the hood has parallel sides and is NOT tapered out like on the 6 cylinder rigs. This is the same firewall I have for the original 1913 6 cylinder American-LaFrance Hose car. All of my American-LaFrance fire truck stuff has been pre 1925 and was/is right hand steering, outside shifter, chain drive and etc. I have seen the nice later Seagrave cast cowling. My 1915 Seagrave parts truck just had a flat wooden firewall, nothing fancy or elaborate at all. Al PS: I have not decided if I will use the aluminum firewall as it left the factory or trim it for a smoother look, like a Stutz Bearcat. What are the thoughts here? Edited November 27, 2017 by alsfarms (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 8 hours ago, alsfarms said: Greg, Do you still have a brass project moving along? Al Hi Al, I still have it but little progress recently. My house renovations are dragging on and I am also rebuilding a Formula Ford race car. The Staver is mostly gathering dust. I am still interested in your 24" Firestone truck rims you mentioned you had. They are for the rear of my Packard 2 ton. Greg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted November 27, 2017 Author Share Posted November 27, 2017 Hello Greg, I need a bit of a reminder as to which Firestone rims you are needing. I have some lighter duty 24" as well has some heavy duty Firestone. I placed a note on the AACA HCCA forum to see if anyone needs rims. A few interested fellows have dropped notes. If I have sent you pictures, in the past, can you forward a copy so I will know which rims you need? Al PS: Isn't it nice to have so many needy things get in the way of our antique auto hobby. I have had house, shop, farm and on and on also...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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