Make your Idler pulleys last longer

[89RedDarkGrey]

 

[Bhigdog]

I've been told by a bearing manufacturer rep that a sealed bearing  should be filled to only 30% of the space available. He said filling it completely causes "slugging" and premature failure. Just saying..................Bob

[Guest SaddleRider]

I am lost.  Someone help me out........what am I missing here............"fill a sealed bearing"......?

 

 How does one "fill only to 30%"  a SEALED bearing...?     How does one do that ?  Where does one find the filler cap on a sealed bearing...?

[Guest]

Never is an awful long time.  Another guy that disputes manufacturers engineering.  I would never return any grease back to the container once it had been out (how do you spell CONTAMINATED).

SaddleRider   The seal is just a pressed in ring.  Easy to remove, especially if you watch the video.  When I worked in a Bearing Supply Company in the 60's all the ball bearings we stocked had two seals and two snap ring grooves.  That way we could supply four different applications with one item.

[Guest]

Good tip.

Thanks again 89RedDarkGrey

[Guest SaddleRider]

1 hour ago, Tinindian said:

 

SaddleRider   The seal is just a pressed in ring.  Easy to remove, especially if you watch the video.....

 

Thank you, Trin, for trying to help me understand.   I remain confused.

 

My confusion stems from the fact that  here on my planet,  when we say "sealed bearing" we  typically mean a bearing that has a very dense and tough plastic/composite seal pressed into a bearing - so no way to fill or even check the lubrication level inside the bearing.   When they go bad, you just replace them... no ring or snap-ring involved in on on the bearing itself.      Yes, it would be possible to break out that seal,   but I am not clear what the advantage would be.

 

Again, on my planet, we do have snap-rings,  but typically, when used in conjunction with a bearing,  they are to retain the bearing inside a housing, or to retain the bearing inside a "race".   Because those bearings are not sealed, we do not call those a "sealed bearing".

[1912Staver]

Better to remove both seals and wash all the factory grease out with nice clean varsol or similar solvent. Blow any residue out with gentle air blast. Use either good quality W.B. grease or as I do "Molly" grease. Like Bhigdog  says 1/3 or so is plenty, more just encourages overheating and excess grease being forced out past the seal on to your belt. The large split race roller bearings that support the 24 " shaft line on the ship I work on have very specific Man. instructions regarding grease. And roughly 1/3 capacity is in line with those instructions.

 SaddleRider, you must be talking about very new or quite small bearings. I have been involved with hundreds of sealed bearings and 99% are similar to those in the video.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited September 15, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[capngrog]

I've always considered "Liquid Wrench" to be more of a penetrant than a lubricant and would not rely upon it to provide long term lubrication for anything ... especially a highly-loaded idler pulley bearing.  I'm not sure what effect injecting the bearing with "liquid Wrench" would have on the existing white (lithium) grease.  At the very least, it would reduce its viscosity, changing its lubrication characteristics significantly.  Those are just my thoughts on this, and I'd like to see the responses of those who have more knowledge of this matter than I do.

 

I thought that a prescription of some sort was required to obtain a hypodermic syringe and needle.  I cringed at the cavalier manner in which the video presenter was waving that needle around.  Maybe an injection of a few ccs of "Liquid Wrench" would lube up the old joints.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[Guest SaddleRider]

9 minutes ago, capngrog said:

I've always considered "Liquid Wrench" to be more of a penetrant than a lubricant and would not rely upon it to provide long term lubrication for anything ... especially a highly-loaded idler pulley ...........  I cringed at the cavalier manner in which the video presenter was waving that needle around. 

 

Shame on you for coming in here and bothering these nice people with the real world of  legit. automotive shop practice and real-world lubrication technology.....

[Guest]

SaddleRider  I sold bearings for 14 years and never saw a sealed bearing that did not have the "seal" just pressed in.  Perhaps in your and my world they should have been called shielded bearings because the seal/shield was mostly to keep dirt out rather than lube in.

 

1912Staver  In the years that I worked in Parts in a GM dealership I saw at least six cars damaged and one destroyed because the owner or the shop he went to put a different grease/lube in front wheel bearings without washing the old lube out.  Apparently Sodium and Lithium don't like one another.

 

In my own experience I have never added grease to a bearing.  Always wash it clean and air dry it, never even using air to spin a bearing dry.  Front wheel and rear axle bearings on my car are original after 87 years and 500,000 miles.

[1912Staver]

Tinindian do you recognise that ship ? You have probably sailed on it at one time, the photo shows it in what is probably near your back yard {Esquimalt Dry Dock}.

 

Greg

[PFitz]

1 hour ago, Tinindian said:

SaddleRider  I sold bearings for 14 years and never saw a sealed bearing that did not have the "seal" just pressed in.  Perhaps in your and my world they should have been called shielded bearings because the seal/shield was mostly to keep dirt out rather than lube in.

 

1912Staver  In the years that I worked in Parts in a GM dealership I saw at least six cars damaged and one destroyed because the owner or the shop he went to put a different grease/lube in front wheel bearings without washing the old lube out.  Apparently Sodium and Lithium don't like one another.

 

In my own experience I have never added grease to a bearing.  Always wash it clean and air dry it, never even using air to spin a bearing dry.  Front wheel and rear axle bearings on my car are original after 87 years and 500,000 miles.

 

 

+1

I have "rejuvenated' many a supposedly "dry" bearing by using the tip of an Ex-Acto knife to lift the edge of a bearing's "seal" and wick in some light machine oil, then hand spin the bearing to mix that oil back into the grease  "base".

 

Do you  understand that "grease" is not a lubricant by itself, but that it is a mixture of an oil, that is mixed into a thickening substance that "holds and wicks" oil to the surfaces needing to be lubricated and that oil is the main ingredient ?   As the oil leaches out of the "base" by capillary action, the thickening agent is left behind. But, you can re-oil the that base so that it works as before.

 

That's how you "resurrect",  "lube for life" bearings from the brink of death !!!!

 

But then, I've only been doing that for about 50 years, so  "bearing life" is however you view "life time" to be !   

 

Paul!  

[Guest]

1912Staver  Could that be the M V Coho?  Or perhaps the Queen of Prince Rupert???   I have been on both of them many times.

[1912Staver]

No ,sorry wrong on both counts. But you are closer with the QPR. The Coho is a U.S. ship so I have never worked on it. The now retired Queen of Tsawwassen and Queen of Sidney were very similar to the Coho and I have worked a bit on both years ago. {quite a bit on the Q.TSAW} The QPR is also now retired and I  worked on it quite a bit but mainly when she would spend most of the winter tied up at the maintenance dock in Richmond. I sailed on her now and then ,mostly to do the exchange at Port Hardy so the Queen of the North could come down for its yearly overhaul. She was a good sea boat, but not so user friendly in the Engine Room. She was the last ship built in the Victoria Machinery Depot yard. The one in the photo is one of the Sprit class ships. Probably you have been aboard at some time.

[Rusty_OToole]

I have inspected new bearings with built in seals, they seemed to have a few drops of light oil and that is all. When you buy a grease gun you get a needle that snaps into the end of the grease gun, this needle can be inserted between the seal and housing to grease the bearing. I always do this when installing one.

 

Here's what one looks like.

 

Edited September 16, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Real Steel]

Bearings, grease, guys with real-world experience, and a couple of photos of a very cool work shop.  I love to see this side of this forum

[gwells]

As sort of an aside to this thread, some years back VW sponsored a Rabbit/Golf spec racing class (in SCCA I think). Those front wheel drive cars use a large sealed front wheel bearing that would fail quickly under the stress of racing, often not lasting for a single race.

The racers solved the problem by carefully removing the seals and flushing out the factory grease then repacking them with quaility synthetic grease like Mobil 1 and replacing the seals. Thus treated, the front wheel bearings would last multiple races, perhaps even the entire season. The point is that the grease typically used in sealed bearings is often not very good.

[Guest SaddleRider]

I find this "thread" fascinating.  I had no idea how inadequate sealed bearings are,  or how important it is to mess with them.

 

Clearly,  all over the world,  the manuals, tech. data....of  manufacturers of sealed bearings,  and the various applications where they are used are in error; best thing is to ignore them and listen to the "backyard experts" .  After all, look at the highways of today - strewn with disabled cars and trucks because people did not mess with their sealed bearings.....

 

Now...all kidding aside.....could the life of a sealed bearing be extended by messing with the seal, injecting fresh lubricant ?    Certainly possible - but the other side of that story is  - in many cases where a sealed bearing is called for,   there is a reason WHY a sealed bearing is called for!    An operating environment where contamination is an issue - monkeying around with the seal might well degrade the ability of the seal to seal.....!

 

And there is the question of practicality.    Seems to me if I was going to the trouble of removing a sealed bearing from service  (given what a "pain" it can be to get at a bearing in many applications....)....I would prefer just to "toss" the thing and replace it. Especially where "monkeying around" with the seal might well compromise the seal,  leading to failure and more labor issues.

 

Would anyone be surprised that II am filing this particular thread in the same folder as "cow magnets to improve gas mileage and reduce vapor lock"...?

[PFitz]

23 hours ago, capngrog said:

I've always considered "Liquid Wrench" to be more of a penetrant than a lubricant and would not rely upon it to provide long term lubrication for anything ... especially a highly-loaded idler pulley bearing.  I'm not sure what effect injecting the bearing with "liquid Wrench" would have on the existing white (lithium) grease.  At the very least, it would reduce its viscosity, changing its lubrication characteristics significantly.  Those are just my thoughts on this, and I'd like to see the responses of those who have more knowledge of this matter than I do.

 

I thought that a prescription of some sort was required to obtain a hypodermic syringe and needle.  I cringed at the cavalier manner in which the video presenter was waving that needle around.  Maybe an injection of a few ccs of "Liquid Wrench" would lube up the old joints.

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

Grog,

 

It's not the rust penetrant that he's using.  It's a light machine oil.

 

The Liquid Wrench Company, in addition to their well known rust penetrating spray, also sell spray cans of "lubricating oil".  They sell about 5 types of spray lubes for many different applications.  If you look closely in the video it says lubricating oil right on the can below the liquid wrench company logo.

 

Paul

[1912Staver]

37 minutes ago, SaddleRider said:

I find this "thread" fascinating.  I had no idea how inadequate sealed bearings are,  or how important it is to mess with them.

 

Clearly,  all over the world,  the manuals, tech. data....of  manufacturers of sealed bearings,  and the various applications where they are used are in error; best thing is to ignore them and listen to the "backyard experts" .  After all, look at the highways of today - strewn with disabled cars and trucks because people did not mess with their sealed bearings.....

 

Now...all kidding aside.....could the life of a sealed bearing be extended by messing with the seal, injecting fresh lubricant ?    Certainly possible - but the other side of that story is  - in many cases where a sealed bearing is called for,   there is a reason WHY a sealed bearing is called for!    An operating environment where contamination is an issue - monkeying around with the seal might well degrade the ability of the seal to seal.....!

 

And there is the question of practicality.    Seems to me if I was going to the trouble of removing a sealed bearing from service  (given what a "pain" it can be to get at a bearing in many applications....)....I would prefer just to "toss" the thing and replace it. Especially where "monkeying around" with the seal might well compromise the seal,  leading to failure and more labor issues.

 

Would anyone be surprised that II am filing this particular thread in the same folder as "cow magnets to improve gas mileage and reduce vapor lock"...?

SaddleRider, your point is taken and I don't recommend adding fresh grease to a sealed bearing that has been in use and become rough or noisy. However new bearings are manufactured to a price point that takes marketplace competition with offshore bearings as part of the costing. And one place some manufactures will trim costs is grease. There are bearings on the market that are sourced from all corners of the globe, with surprisingly variable quality. Using a known good quality grease simply insures you get the best value for your bearing $, even if all your local vender can supply is something from a far distant land at say 1/2 the price of  SKF. I have been told there are now "fake" SKF bearings on the market that definitely look the part , packaging and all. Somehow I doubt whoever is producing them is too particular about where they get their grease.  It takes less than 10 minutes and perhaps 15 cents worth of premium quality grease. Of course if you are unsure of your ability to remove the seals and correctly replace them without damage then it is definitely best to use the bearings straight out of the box.

Greg in Canada

Edited September 16, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Guest SaddleRider]

3 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

SaddleRider, your point is taken and I don't recommend adding fresh grease to a sealed bearing that has been in use and become rough or noisy. However new bearings are manufactured to a price point that takes marketplace competition with offshore bearings as part of the costing. And one place some manufactures will trim costs is grease. There are bearings on the market that are sourced from all corners of the globe, with surprisingly variable quality. Using a known good quality grease simply insures you get the best value for your bearing $, even if all your local vender can supply is something from a far distant land at say 1/2 the price of  SKF. It takes less than 10 minutes and perhaps 15 cents worth of premium quality grease. Of course if you are unsure of your ability to remove the seals and correctly replace them without damage then it is definitely best to use the bearings straight out of the box.

Greg in Canada

 

Hi Greg - yes - wide variety of quality in import bearings up until recently.   Apparently,  probably in some measure for liability reasons,   just about any bearing you can buy from legit sources in legit packaging..... would meet international standards.   You may be aware that "SKF" stands for Schinefurt Kart Works....they license their name to bearing mfgs all over the place.  Imagine my surprise when I opened a VOLVO bearing box for the stern drive on my boat.   From the looks of it,   outstanding quality........, to find the small print confirms it was made in INDIA !

 

"It takes less than 10 minutes".........oh yeah ?  .......what sealed bearings in what application can you get out of the vehicle in 10 minutes....!

[1912Staver]

Sorry for the misconception , I only recommend grease replacement on new bearings . You are completely correct,  removing an already installed bearing simply to re-grease it is not a good use of time. Also SKF corporate history states that SKF stands for Svenska KullagerFabriken. , loosely Swedish bearing manufacturer {fabricator}.

Greg

Edited September 16, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Guest SaddleRider]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Sorry for the misconception , I only recommend grease replacement on new bearings . You are completely correct,  removing an already installed bearing simply to re-grease it is not a good use of time. Also SKF corporate history states that SKF stands for Svenska KullagerFabriken. , loosely Swedish bearing manufacturer {fabricator}.

Greg

 

Hi Greg:  

 

You are right.         I am completely correct...and I can prove it.   The reason I am completely correct...even tho I am wrong a lot of the time...is that I never admit I am wrong...!   Therefore...it logically follows that I am "completely correct".

 

Yes, I also recommend greasing new bearings.   Well...if they are not already greased...!.   As brilliant as I am,  I do not substitute my knowledge for that of the engineers of the companies that make bearings.....!

 

About SKF.     Interesting. I suspect you got into the corporate history of one of SKF's subsidiaries.   SKF has sub-divisions all over the planet.    Do you remember reading about a famous bombing raid during the 2nd World War..... by the 8th Army Air Force - to try and eliminate the German ball bearing industry ?   Remember the name of the town?  Hint, it IS the "S" in SKS.....and  that town, after which the SKF company takes its name........ was and is not in Sweden !

[1912Staver]

As far as I am aware the only connection the Swedish bearing Co. SKF { founded in Gothenburg Sweden in 1907} has with the Schweinfurt raids is that its subsidiary company Fichtel and Sachs {purchased by SKF in 1923} was one of the 4 targeted bearing factories.  The largest of the 4 {by a good margin I believe } was Kugelfischer Georg Schafer which had no affiliation with SKF.

 

Greg

[capngrog]

5 hours ago, PFitz said:

 

Grog,

 

It's not the rust penetrant that he's using.  It's a light machine oil.

 

The Liquid Wrench Company, in addition to their well known rust penetrating spray, also sell spray cans of "lubricating oil".  They sell about 5 types of spray lubes for many different applications.  If you look closely in the video it says lubricating oil right on the can below the liquid wrench company logo.

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

I saw the "lubricating oil" designation on the can, and I should have noted that in my comment; however, in my opinion, a light machine oil's lubricating properties are not much better than penetrant oils and are not adequate for highly loaded bearings.  According to their website, Liquid Wrench produces five products (as you pointed out), one of which is a "lubricating oil".  Here is a link to their data on this "lubricating oil":  https://www.liquidwrench.com/product/lubricating-oil/    Note that the recommended uses for their "lubricating oil" are for light duty applications only.  I still consider neither machine oil nor penetrant to be appropriate lubricants for highly loaded bearings.

 

Due to my relative inexperience, I tend to rely on manufacturer's specifications.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[PFitz]

You've got the cart before the horse. SKF is a Swedish company that was started in back 1907, They  bought out a lot of the German ball bearing companies well before WWII.

 

From a history of Schweinfurt's ball bearing manufacturing.   http://www.thirdreichruins.com/schweinfurt.htm

 

" ........................ Kugelfischer is now called FAG-Kugelfischer, Fichtel & Sachs is ZF-Sachs, and VKF is called SKF. Interestingly, the company became VKF (Vereinigte Kugellagerfabriken) in 1929, but they were part of the SKF conglomerate (), and that name was commonly used as well. However, during the war the Allies referred to this company as VKF, as they did not want to appear to be bombing a Swedish company!)      ......................."

 

As can been seen, the company is not named after the famous ball bearing  town of Schweinfurt in Germany.

 

Paul

Edited September 16, 2017 by PFitz (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

As far as I understand things  the bearing division only  of Fichtel and Sachs was purchased by SKF in 1923, The remainder of the company continued to produce many products and eventually evolved into ZF-Sachs. VKF was also acquired by SKF but was a fairly minor producer. F+S on the other hand was a reasonably substantial producer, but definitely quite a bit smaller than Kugelfischer.

 

Greg

Edited September 17, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Guest SaddleRider]

3 hours ago, capngrog said:

 

, I tend to rely on manufacturer's specifications.......

 

Now why would you do that,  with all their engineers and technical background,  when we have all these "back-yard experts" in here...?

[1912Staver]

At least a few of the AACA forum members may be bit more than "back -yard experts" the odd one might even be an Engineer with say 35 years or so of heavy industry experience alongside of course the shade tree involvement with derelict motor vehicles. You never know.

 

Greg

Edited September 17, 2017 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

About grease. I don't know about today's grease, but grease used to contain a lot of clay with an oil to make it fluid and keep it from becoming damp. Clay minerals are platey (i.e. flat like a plate) and some are very slippery. Some shrink when they dry out and expand when they get wet again. Some are hydrophillic (they suck up moisture, e.g. bentonite) and are really not the best thing to put in grease. Some adsorb water to the metal ions on their surface and release it when stirred (i.e. they are thixotropic) and will not be used in grease. They are damned hard to do earth works in to.

 

When the oil has evaporated, which it does slowly, the dry clay in many old greases sucks up moisture and the result is rust. Automotive springs used to be wrapped in canvas then metal "scales" or leather gaiters, but few ever greased them like they were supposed to. Those springs are often very rusty when you look inside the covers. Mine were.

 

There has been reference above to grease containing molybdenum disulphide. Now, that mineral is corrosive, so greases containing it include anti-corrosive agents. If you allow your MbS₂ grease to dry out, however, the anti-corrosive agents don't work! I expect injecting a light oil into a used greased bearing is intended to replace the lost oil in the grease, not for the oil to be the lubricant on its own.

 

Ref. Liquid Wrench and other "penetrating oils". What actually are they? Some are actually a wax in a volatile carrier. WD-40 is. So how does that work in your bearing? And how good is wax as a lubricant? Not much good, probably. So if you want a lubricant, use a lubricant.

[PFitz]

It's easy to find out what any of the products mentioned actually are. Just do a search using the product name and add "MSDS" after it and it's Material Safety Data Sheet can be found. Then just read down to it's chemical name and the percentage of that chemical in the product.

 

And if you want to know more about it, in between the chemical name and it's percent can often be found it's CAS chemical number. You can then do a search using that chemical number and it will tell you more about it and it's uses.

 

For instance, anyone can look at the WD-40 MSDS sheet and see it's not a wax.

 

Plus, you'd be amazed how much info, and helpful advice, the tech people at these companies are willing to give out over the phone .

 

Or,.....  just stay in the shade of that backyard tree (wink, wink).

 

Paul    

[60FlatTop]

On 9/16/2017 at 12:55 PM, SaddleRider said:

I find this "thread" fascinating.

 

Fascinating, I'm just doing some calculations, in my head, of how much money I have made removing anecdotal engineering modifications and redefining original operating procedures. And guess what, I'm still doing it.

 

Sealed bearings make me smile. In the early 1970's sealed bearings were installed in motors using the end bells for traditional bearings. The manufacturer just installed a slotted plug. Our boss had me take all the top ones out and install Zerk fittings. Quarterly I would remove the lower plug and pump fresh grease in until it showed at the plug opening. Then I let the motors run for 2 hours to bring the fresh grease up to temperature and reinstall the plug. I think I followed that routine for three years before one of the sealed bearing failed. "What's this?" A call to TACO pump and "all our bearings are sealed."

 

More fun stories about the sand tunnel I took care of in a foundry.

Bernie

[Spinneyhill]

13 hours ago, PFitz said:

or instance, anyone can look at the WD-40 MSDS sheet and see it's not a wax.

 

Oh dear, another fact I knew to be true that isn't! It is half de-oderised kerosene!