Creating a clean title in Virginia or Florida

[PAJLAL]

A 67 Mustang Shelby Cobra came into my hands from my brother's estate and he wanted my daughter to have it.  I never found a title for it.  I believe it was purchased in the 70's in New York State.  It had a Minnesota "Collector Car" tag on it that was untraceable when going through MN DMV.  I created a signed affidavit, as executor of the estate, designating my daughter as the owner.  Apparently this doesn't hold water in Florida.  She wants to sell the car and is stuck with a DMV that sounds more like a contract outsourced paper pushing outfit than anything to serve the citizens of Florida.  

 

I talked this up at work and a guy that restores cars sent me here and added that there may be a registry of Cobras either directly through Shelby or as a product of some club activity.  I talked with a welder last year that is into classic Camaros and he talked about some kind of tracking methods, independent of any DMVs, to authenticate cars.

 

Any Virginia or Florida Mustang enthusiasts have any advice or spoonfeeding to help out?  She hasn't considered a price and the man that did a lot of mechanical restoration moved and can't be reached.  

 

Thanks, in advance!

 

Peace!

[Brass is Best]

Didn't the estate have to be settled by an attorney? This should be part of the attorneys job. She is stuck because until the estate provides her with a title she is not the owner of the car. Be very careful what you do next as any title fabrication or VIN manipulation would most likely be a felony. There are proper legal channels in all states for a car with a lost title. That is what you need to pursue. Also keep in mind if you botch the vin on a Shelby you may greatly devalue it. People need to realize that the title is MORE important than the car itself. Always inspect the title and vin before buying a car.

 

Here is a place to start in VA: http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/abandoned.asp

 

 

 

 

[Digger914]

If the car has a Minnesota Collector plate it has a Minnesota title, or the plate did not belong on the car. The car would have been a minimum of 20 years old when this plate was issued. Minnesota collector plates never expire and this can cause an estate nightmare when the car and owner move out of state and the owner fails to register the car at their new home state location, especially when the title can't be found after the registered owner has passed on. Now you have probate in one state and a title to be cleared from another. Absolute worst case would be if your brother bought the car with the collector plate that never expires, didn't register the title in his name and the seller signed title is lost

 

Basically when a Minnesota car gets a Minnesota Collector Plate the title moves from active annual registration accessible from any DMV terminal to a file that never expires and there is a real difference in going through Minnesota DMV and going to the Minnesota DVM office at the State Capitol because that's where you need to go to get this paperwork done. After the paperwork is done, getting a Minnesota Duplicate Title usually takes a couple of months, doing this by phone and mail can add a couple more months. Assuming that the Minnesota plates are on the car because your brother had a Minnesota title, and assuming that the car is in Florida because your brother moved from Minnesota to Florida and brought the car with him; and assuming that probate hasn't been closed with this job half done; as executor of your brothers estate you don't need a court order to get this done, but the DMV doesn't make the court wait in line, or come back tomorrow with a "certified" copy of the death certificate and papers from the court do help. Getting papers from the court usually requires the help of an attorney.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

The Shelby Club and its associated registry would probably be able to supply some additional information,. They seem to track when cars have been on the market, when they've traded hands, and to whom. Many entries in the Registry have rather detailed ownership histories, when it changed hands, when it was last seen, who owned it when, things like that. The 2007 edition of the Shelby Registry is generally regarded as the most complete and useful one, but it's now 10 years out of date so perhaps later editions are more useful with more recent info. But since your brother owned it since the 1970s, there might be a listing there for the guy who owned it before him and if you're lucky, his name as well (suggesting that he titled it in his own name and in which state). Note that there are two Shelby clubs; you want the Shelby American Auto Club (SAAC) and the Registry is a massive book that costs about $75. The other one is the one kept by Shelby American Inc. and they just keep track of the cars they've been building since the 1990s or so.

 

Sadly, many collector car owners never title their cars in their own names and just keep them on the previous owner's title (usually to avoid paying taxes), but when situations like this come up, it gets rather difficult to title, license, trade, or sell the car. If your brother never titled the car, it will be a whole different game to get a title rather than just replacing a lost one. Buggered titles use up a disproportionate amount of my time in this business and 9 times out of 10, it's simply because a new owner never put the car in his own name. It's probably even more challenging since even if there is a title, it dates to the 1970s so it won't be on any computers and they'll have to manually search records and there's usually an extra fee and several weeks' wait time for that.

 

And as someone pointed out above, changing the VIN or any of the numbers on a real Shelby is akin to burning it to the ground. It will be worth far, far less if you have to get a state-assigned VIN or change it to match a title you've acquired elsewhere (technically fraud and with Shelbys, it's ridiculously easy to prove given the information available). Getting good papers on that Shelby is the difference between it being worth $25,000 and $75,000. Please try to do it right!

 

Good luck!

[alsancle]

It can be a bigger or smaller issue depending on what state you are in.   If you are in Mass with me and they find out you owned the car for 20 years without titling it they don't care about the title.  BUT the State does care that you owe them 20 years of interest on the 6% sales tax you were supposed to pay when you titled it.

 

It can all be worked out.  I highly doubt the car is stolen, but working through the mess will be leg work.

[alsancle]

A much bigger deal is making sure it is a real Shelby.

[Restorer32]

To use a title purchased from anyone would require either changing the VIN to match the title or changing the title to match the VIN. I believe both are illegal?

[mercer09]

To use a title purchased from anyone would require either changing the VIN to match the title or changing the title to match the VIN. I believe both are illegal?

 

not suggesting that at all restorer...........

 

all legal, the correct numbers, bring the police force over for a title party............ understand?

 

I COLLECT titles........... I understand titling-most on here arent even remotely close.

 

everyone walking in the dark with a cane.

[Brass is Best]

But this car already has a title someplace. How can NY or NJ just give it a title? How can this guy prove it was his brothers car? This must be why many states do not like to accept title from NY or NJ? Still sounds like a bad idea. If you give the car a new title and the old title shows up guess who owns the car... This is a recipe for a bad situation.

 

The proper course of action is to back track to where the problem occurred.

 

I know about titles as well.

[George Smolinski]

8 hours ago, alsancle said:

A much bigger deal is making sure it is a real Shelby.

Won't matter if it's a real Shelby if there's no proof of ownership, as in a real title, not one someone is peddling on here.

[alsancle]

The word "Authenticate" was used in the original post, hence my comment.   If the car is not real, then there is going to be a lot of leg work for 25k car.  If the car is real, then there is going to be a lot of leg work for a 125k car.

 

Title issues are a pain (sometimes a HUGE pain) but they can be resolved.  You guys act like the car ceases to exist because the title is lost. 

[Brass is Best]

6 hours ago, alsancle said:

The word "Authenticate" was used in the original post, hence my comment.   If the car is not real, then there is going to be a lot of leg work for 25k car.  If the car is real, then there is going to be a lot of leg work for a 125k car.

 

Title issues are a pain (sometimes a HUGE pain) but they can be resolved.  You guys act like the car ceases to exist because the title is lost. 

 

In the eyes of the law the car dose cease to exist until it has a proper title. that is why a title is so important. But you are correct there will be a lot of leg work, waiting, pain and suffering to resolve this. Which there should be because somebody did not do what they were supposed to. But a title of a Cracker Jack box and a vin plate from the local trophy shop is never the right answer.

[bobg1951chevy]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 11:59 PM, Brass is Best said:

Didn't the estate have to be settled by an attorney? This should be part of the attorneys job. She is stuck because until the estate provides her with a title she is not the owner of the car. Be very careful what you do next as any title fabrication or VIN manipulation would most likely be a felony. There are proper legal channels in all states for a car with a lost title. That is what you need to pursue. Also keep in mind if you botch the vin on a Shelby you may greatly devalue it. People need to realize that the title is MORE important than the car itself. Always inspect the title and vin before buying a car.

 

Here is a place to start in VA: http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/abandoned.asp

 

 

 

 

The words above are "words to live by" ....... and the correct approach will keep the "felony" word from following your name, down the road.

[alsancle]

I think everybody is sort of in agreement?  For me the key issue is that the original poster has a problem that he did not create.  He's not asking about buying a car without a title,  in which case I would yell NO!

 

For the most part, everybody on here as seen or had title issues so we all know to avoid them like the plague.  But in this case the problem was dropped in somebody's lap.   I'm assuming the car was not stolen,  so I'm also assuming that the issues can be resolved in some way.  Probably after 100 hours worth of work or more.

 

If it is a real Shelby, then tracing its history backwards is possible as the cars are tracked.   But also, going through the previous owner's locations, associated state RMV's doing a VIN search, etc could lead to a real but lost title on the car in the brother's name.

[Brass is Best]

Perhaps one of the gentlemen who know how to "fix" this problem would be kind enough to explain all the steps to us. 

[Brass is Best]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

I think everybody is sort of in agreement?  For me the key issue is that the original poster has a problem that he did not create.  He's not asking about buying a car without a title,  in which case I would yell NO!

 

For the most part, everybody on here as seen or had title issues so we all know to avoid them like the plague.  But in this case the problem was dropped in somebody's lap.   I'm assuming the car was not stolen,  so I'm also assuming that the issues can be resolved in some way.  Probably after 100 hours worth of work or more.

 

If it is a real Shelby, then tracing its history backwards is possible as the cars are tracked.   But also, going through the previous owner's locations, associated state RMV's doing a VIN search, etc could lead to a real but lost title on the car in the brother's name.

 

Yes sir you are correct. The issue is they are worried about giving the car to the daughter. When the issue is really proving it was legally the brothers car. If this car is in the estate and is not properly titled then the estate cannot be settled.

[John348]

On 9/14/2017 at 11:59 PM, Brass is Best said:

Didn't the estate have to be settled by an attorney? This should be part of the attorneys job. She is stuck because until the estate provides her with a title she is not the owner of the car. Be very careful what you do next as any title fabrication or VIN manipulation would most likely be a felony. There are proper legal channels in all states for a car with a lost title. That is what you need to pursue. Also keep in mind if you botch the vin on a Shelby you may greatly devalue it. People need to realize that the title is MORE important than the car itself. Always inspect the title and vin before buying a car.

 

Here is a place to start in VA: http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/abandoned.asp

 

 

 

 

 

Brass is Best is 100% correct! There has been a lot of dialog for no reason at all, and the bottom line is that the car is part of an estate and is a piece of property and most likely a probate lawyer is involved The lawyer must secure the paperwork from the proper DMV, that is what they are paid to do. This situation is far more complex than some car left abandoned in a barn and nobody knows anything about it. 

The only way to fix this problem is to have the estates probate lawyer secure the paperwork, going about this any other way is asking for trouble

 

[A. Ballard 35R]

Silly question, but how do you know that the car is part of the estate if there is no title to show that the brother actually owned the car?  It doesn't appear that there is any official documentation to show any owners.

Good luck!

[auburnseeker]

You are also talking about a car that raises an eyebrow in any car circle especially because of it's possible value.  Where as if it was a 1974 Valiant 6 Sedan with a little rust, most people would be glad someone at least wanted it.  

[Brass is Best]

32 minutes ago, A. Ballard 35R said:

Silly question, but how do you know that the car is part of the estate if there is no title to show that the brother actually owned the car?  It doesn't appear that there is any official documentation to show any owners.

Good luck!

 

You bring up an excellent point. This is why a title is so important in the first place.

[bobg1951chevy]

To buy a title from a "title collector", then "match" a vehicle serial number to that "purchased title" ....... is asking for a legal azz ache of epic proportions.  Amen.

[Jase]

The first question to ask is this: what is the current state that the car is located in? If the car is in fact in VA,  then the Abandoned Vehicle Process that Brass is Best posted a link to is the best way to go about getting a good title thru the Va DMV. CAUTION: do NOT think about BSing, and saying that the car is located in Va (the form/affidavit wants a specific storage address). If you falsely swear info on the form that you KNOW is incorrect, in Va it's a felony. AND! DMV inspectors have been checking to prevent abuse of the programme.

 

Its really pretty easy to go thru the process in Va, I do it regularly. Mostly I am doing MSL (mechanic/ storage liens) but I personally have done the AVP three times now.

 

Best

Jase

[Digger914]

Abandoned vehicle or even buying a title works for some cars, but it will stand out like a sore thumb on this car, especially if the car is what it looks to be. This is an estate deal, estates have stated values and states take a percentage when probated. Probating an estate creates a paperwork trail and if this was a $7,500 retail car, odds are nobody would take the time to look. If this car is what it looks to be and sells for what it could within so many years, that paperwork will eventually be checked.

 

This thread should have been titled How do I get the title not Creating a clean title. The OP stated he is executor to his brothers estate, that the car had Minnesota collector plates, that his daughter inherited the car and that she now wants to sell the car. We don't know what state his brother was a resident of when he passed, all we know is that the car had Minnesota collector plates and from the posting we can assume that the car is presently in Florida.

 

 

[George Smolinski]

I sent PAJLAL a PM to see what he's done on the title. Here's what I asked:

Hello,

I'm on the AACA site where you posted about getting a title for the Mustang. I'm curious as to where you are at in the process, & I think the members on this site would be also. Can you keep us posted on your progress & what eventually becomes of the car?

Thanks from everyone here,

George Smolinski

[lhend50]

In VA, you can apply for an abandoned vehicle title. It takes several weeks, because you have to post the car on a website the DMV runs. I have had to use it twice for lost titles and it worked fine. After you follow all their steps you get form that allows you to go in and get a clean title in your name. Legal.