chistech Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 This is a probing question: I am curious if there were a company producing high quality body wood kits and pieces for good prices, would there be much call for it. Initially it would encompass Chevy trucks and cars, 27-35', some 32' Olds, and later include custom work off of customer supplied wood, (GM cars). I am looking for people to answer who would be serious about purchasing wood for their cars. All wood for the Chevys would be made from high quality masters and would be guaranteed to fit (yes, with some very slight modifications depending on the condition of the car the piece(s) are going in.) Yes, I ask because this would be a real business and an investment. I am looking at the answers as a gauge to take on this adventure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 I think there re a lot of folks out there who would love to restore an old GM (and other make) cars, but are put off by bad wood in the body. I guess the real answer is - can you make a wood kit affordable enough to be considered by the average restorer? It's probably going to come down to price and volume. The more you make and sell, the cheaper you can sell them for. Chevys are not high dollar cars and few people are going to spring for a wood kit that costs more than the car is worth. I, for one, would jump at the chance if I were restoring an old Chevy: luckily, my 32 Dodge Brothers has an all steel body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 3 hours ago, chistech said: This is a probing question: I am curious if there were a company producing high quality body wood kits and pieces for good prices, would there be much call for it. Initially it would encompass Chevy trucks and cars, 27-35', some 32' Olds, and later include custom work off of customer supplied wood, (GM cars). 1 hour ago, Taylormade said: I think there re a lot of folks out there who would love to restore an old GM (and other make) cars, but are put off by bad wood in the body. I think people are quite right to be leery of these cars. I was looking at a Pontiac that had bad (unusable) back doors. I attempted to price wood for the back doors and back doorposts, as the seller said the posts were bad too. I contacted every wood kit maker I could find mentioned here and elsewhere. By the time I bought the car, a whole month later, only one had called me back. Eventually they all did except one. All of them are booked up for a matter of years, about three years if I remember correctly. No one had patterns for this car. No one would even guess what the parts would cost. If you read threads here and on other sites catering to old wood bodied cars, it becomes clear that even if you could get someone to commit to making the parts, it could drag on for years before you get the parts. I talked to one gentleman on the forum here who could make wood if he had the car. He said if he had only the doors, there would be a good chance they wouldn't fit. I can certainly see why. The doors truly are wood, the metal is only a thin skin. He is in the eastern end of the country and I am in the Pacific Northwest, so taking the car there wasn't really doable. I do have woodworking tools. I bought some ash, and have started making the parts myself. I didn't want to do this, but I am pretty much committed now. The original wood was laying in slivers and sawdust in the bottom of one door, and entirely missing from the beltline down in the other. I have been collecting every picture I can find online of the wood inside of wooden Fisher doors of any sort, as there aren't any pictures of these exact doors. I think if you can deliver in a reasonable amount of time people will beat a path to your door. Lack of patterns for, well, basically everything is going to be a huge stumbling block. "Customer supplied wood" won't happen much. I suspect most people have sawdust just like I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Hmmmmm , welllllllll , I am sure this '30 Buick I will be picking up soon will be needing some woodwork. Way beyond anything I can do , or have enough remaining time to learn. Now evidently "Cabnut" who frequently contributes , is jigged up for Chev and other makes of certain years. Have you looked through the links from his posting below under Commercial Advertisements : "Automotive Wood Bodies" ? It is fascinating to see the progress of you guys who are such fine craftsmen , real artists in metal and wood. I am afraid it will be quite a challenge for me just to get the old Buick driveable. Chistech : How is your Olds coming along ? Taylormade : How far out are you from being able to take to the road again ? Bloo : Where in the Pacific Northwest are you ? I am in the process of abandoning Seattle for Ellensburg ? In signing off for the night , I imagine all the commercial shops doing skilled work must be very busy with projects for well-heeled customers. There is an enormous amount of money being spent by people who have it. - Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Chistech: I hope this works out for you, a good source of wood is sorely needed! C.Carl: I am in Wenatchee. That Buick looks like an interesting project, it even looks like you have some solid chunks of wood to work with. Good luck with it! Here is what passes for "patterns" over at my house...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabnut Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Bloo said: Chistech: I hope this works out for you, a good source of wood is sorely needed! C.Carl: I am in Wenatchee. That Buick looks like an interesting project, it even looks like you have some solid chunks of wood to work with. Good luck with it! Here is what passes for "patterns" over at my house...... I can rebuild from this. You don't need the car to make doors. If they don't fit then the body needs work too. The problem with supplying wood pieces or kits is there are no patterns but for original wood in the body. I have concentrated on body engineering and studying techniques so I can design wood if required. As such I primarily re-wood bodies and could offer parts if I have the piece to copy or have the part already. On my Facebook page "Automotive Wood Bodies" I have pictures of wood in progress for a 1929 Chevrolet Cabriolet. This car I have very limited patterns for and a great deal will be engineered to fit the steel using "Fisher" style construction. I am also re-wooding a Durant and learning about "Budd" body building techniques. Cost unfortunately is high as this is custom work and demand is limited for any one body style. Do I need the car? Quick answer is yes if the wood is expected to fit the steel. Many people don't realise that as the wood and joints fail these bodies sag, bow, flex, droop and swell so that measurements from the body 80 years later may not reflect the new condition of the body. You need to know the design elements of these bodies to determine the body shape and rebuild to that. The wood for a low dollar car may easily cost as much time and material as a high dollar car so one should really want the car and hopefully they understood the investment required before purchasing. Having said all this I believe anyone can do it themselves if they are patient and are prepared to educate and equip themselves to do so Edited August 25, 2017 by Cabnut Typo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 C Carl - not to hijack this thread, but I'm about a year away from being totally finished. All chrome and paint finished, all mechanical work done, upholstery 60 percent there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Maybe I can add some perspective to this discussion. As part of our restoration services we have been rewooding cars and producing steam bent top bows for 38 years now, everything from a '31 Chevy 4 door, to a Kissel Gold Bug, numerous Packards, an L29 Cord and many others. We have one full time employee who does nothing but wood work. Actually I did wood work myself until advancing age and arthritis slowed me down. Folks say you need to be a cabinet maker to do automotive wood work. We don't find this to be true. Cabinet makers are great with straight and square, not usually so good with compound curves. The wood worker we employ now has formal training as a sculpture and is an absolute genius with working wood. He is just finishing rewooding a '42 Packard Civil Defense ambulance that has a ton of wood in the body. Most automotive wood is fairly simple but some, primarily the pieces having compound curves, is excruciatingly difficult and the work has to be dead on accurate if you want to maintain correct door gaps etc. We were asked by someone who posted above to try to track down Dave Entler who some of you may remember as being a supplier of Chevy and GMC wood. Dave lives about 3 miles from our shop. I finally got a hold of him. Due to age, he's now 77, he no longer does any wood work. I asked about his patterns but they have long since been fed to his wood stove. Bottom line, rewooding an old car is very time consuming. I wish we could rewood say an early Chevy at a price someone could afford but sadly it can take a minimum of 4 weeks labor to produce all the wood for a typical car. At a reasonable shop rate of $50/hr you are talking $8000 for the wood. Many, many early cars will likely never be restored simply because they need full rewooding. If asked to estimate the cost of rewooding the Buick pictured above we would have to say $8-10 k to cover our time. If you can find someone who does automotive woodwork in his home shop evenings and weekends you might get it done cheaper. As far as kits go you will find that assembling the wood and attaching the body panels is far more difficult than you might think. We toyed with the idea of producing wood kits for 1946-48 Buick Woody wagons until we realized that every car was different in small ways and a kit might or might not fit and since all the wood on a Woody is visible you can't cheat on the fit. Bottom line, we enjoy rewooding cars but it is expensive with our overhead and employee expenses. We did just supply a fellow with all the wood for a '32 Packard, for which we have good patterns, and we believe he has enough experience to get it assembled properly. If someone has good patterns and needs the pieces reproduced we will gladly do that but the pieces we make will only be as accurate as the patterns we are provided. Cabnut your door is typical of what we usually have to work with. Sure we can rewood the doors and they will fit the body. What we can't do is maintain the curvature of the door without the body to determine what that curvature actually is. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Simmons Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Just to throw this in the mix I talked to Dave Entler for some time on the phone a few years ago now. A really nice guy who put forth the possibility that the wood I needed for my Buick Special may have been the same as the Chevrolet Master series. So the possibility may exist that the patterns for one line of GM cars could fit another. Just wondering what anybody's thoughts were on this possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 thought there was a wood co. in North Carolina for early chevy wood? he is at Hershey every year right off of the drive road to the display of cars down by the stadium............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Marx Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 With the advent of CNC 5 Axis machines, once the computer work is done, these type of projects are possible. However, as I have been looking at a CNC and just rebuilt the wood framed doors on my '42 ford ambulance, the computer time is going to be costly. that is for the first one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabnut Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Restorer32 that's not my door. It is my comment and it seems you didn't read everything I said. The doors can be done but I did say that if they didn't fit the body may need work too. On all the doors I have seen, most have tin on the inside faces that the outer skin crimps too. Aside from some minor adjustment the skin position will be governed by these inside pieces. Sculpture is not what was done to create these bodies, they were designed and engineered. As such they all follow truisms of carriage work design and engineering principals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 It 2 hours ago, Mark Simmons said: Just to throw this in the mix I talked to Dave Entler for some time on the phone a few years ago now. A really nice guy who put forth the possibility that the wood I needed for my Buick Special may have been the same as the Chevrolet Master series. So the possibility may exist that the patterns for one line of GM cars could fit another. Just wondering what anybody's thoughts were on this possibility. I have heard this (even though I never heard back from David Entler). Supposedly the bodies for the 1936 Chevrolet Master, all Pontiac, Buick Special, and small Olds were all the same. This can't really be true however. If you look at the back of a Chevrolet master, the area around the trunk is a completely different shape from any of the others. The back doors, however, really do look the same, but they probably aren't. I suspect there are minor differences in the door sheetmetal as well. I brought this possibility up with some of the kit suppliers, hoping to buy some individual pieces that would be close enough to modify. The parts were still years away, and there wasn't much interest in discussing it. 3 hours ago, Restorer32 said: Sure we can rewood the doors and they will fit the body. What we can't do is maintain the curvature of the door without the body to determine what that curvature actually is. That is a huge issue. It is so obvious when you have the car staring at you. I would have loved to have you rewood these doors, but I couldn't figure out how to reasonably get the whole car across the country to you. 7 hours ago, Cabnut said: I have concentrated on body engineering and studying techniques so I can design wood if required. I was not aware of you when I was originally researching this, but I follow your threads now. 7 hours ago, Cabnut said: The wood for a low dollar car may easily cost as much time and material as a high dollar car so one should really want the car and hopefully they understood the investment required before purchasing. Yes. What the cost is, however, is not easy to figure out, and you probably get to sit on it a few years waiting for wood. Fortunately for me I only have a couple of doors. The real answer, it seems, is "you get to do it yourself". There was a thread on here not long ago from some guy who had an Auburn that didn't even have sills. Wow. I wish him the best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 Hi Carl, the Olds is coming along nicely. Wood is done, motor should be back from the machine shop in a few weeks,and the chrome is being redone. Have some small areas of metal repair on the body they it will go on the wood frame. Just finished blasting and priming the wheels to get them ready for paint. My work on customers cars keeps me off of it but that's how it goes. The reasoning behind my question is I've had many inquiries for wood along with restoration inquiries. I've been offered to purchase an established body wood business with very high quality patterns and custom made jigs to make all the pieces with less effort and time. I have a potential partner who is a master cabinetmaker/furniture maker. He has high end custom beds, chairs, curved grand staircases, and more in his catalog.u His work and his designs can be seen in many houses on Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard, and New Port Rhode Island. He is more than capable to do this type of work. I am looking at everything and trying to get an idea on as much as I can before I make my decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42319DB34 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Source Vendor : Chevrolet 1926-1936 cars and trucks structural wood ( possibly other years / makes ) Nice Quality : K C Wood Mfg. Bill Cartwright 470 Rock Church Road , SW Willis, Va. 24380 540-789-8300 INFO@ChevyWood.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 There is a thread at vcca.org about this subject >>> http://vcca.org/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/389232/Wood_kits_from_Autowood_Restor#Post389232 You might recognize one of the participants there....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 That forum is how this question came about. I'm just not sure how much call for wood is needed these days vs. the investment. I enjoy woodworking so the idea of producing body wood peaks my interest. I have a couple original frames to use as building jigs also in my restoration shop and I have put these cars together. I've also scarfed many wood pieces in for repairs so I have a good general knowledge of how these cars go together. My 32 Olds wood took me 82 hours total to make. This was working from deteriorated patterns and even photos. It was also making one piece or two mirror pieces then moving on to something else. That time also included planing time done by myself and from some wood that was farther out of dimension than I could of used if I was properly prepared. If a man was to concentrate on just one type of part for the day, the output would be considerably higher making production go up and lowering costs on that item. @$50 per hr, I have $4,100 in labor into my Olds. The ash was about $550 making the total $4650 for what is basically a 32' cabriolet. Most wood companies are getting around $7k for a cabriolet kit. It is things like this that I'm going over to make my decision. If it is possible, I would like to bring the costs down some to entice more to do there cars which would increase sales of course. I know personally I didn't want to spend $7k to re-wood my car and assume there are many others who feel the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 423. yes that is who I was thinking of KC. did think he was in NC though............. memory isnt that good anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 2 hours ago, mercer09 said: did think he was in NC though............. memory isnt that good anymore. You must be thinking of Classic Wood. They are in NC In Addition to Cabnut (Canada) And Restorer32 (Pennsylvania) in this thread, the ones I am aware of (in no particular order): 1) David Entler (retired) 2) KC Wood Manufacturing - Bill Cartwright (Virginia) 540-789-8300 info@chevywood.com 3) Autowood Restoration - Jim Rodman (Indiana) 219-797-3775 4) Classic Wood (North Carolina) 336-691-1344 ricky@classicwoodproductsllc.com I suspect there was one other, but I can't find my notes. These sources were friendly and helpful, but just did not have patterns for my car. There were also quite a few customers in line ahead of me. I would suggest anyone interested contact them and find out what their current pricing, leadtime, and availability is. Any info I have is over a year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron hausmann Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 All, We are close to finishing a total rebuild of the only existing Kissel Sedanlette, a 1918 Kissel Model 3-38 Gibraltar All-Year car. This means it is a 4-passenger convertible with a demountable oak/ash wood hardtop. I'm posting it here because we had to redo every single piece of wood, using the sheet metal and rotten old parts as patterns. We used pictures and Kissel patents from 1917 to do the attachments. In my opinion, you cannot afford to do this for a more common car and expect it to be economically feasible. But for an exotic car, like a one-of-a-kind classic, it may be worth it. It too me a good 8 months of part time nights and weekends, possibly 400 hours, to do it using woodworking tools. I'm not a carpenter but an ametuer woodworker, and this journey made me an expert. But it can be done precisely and the end result can be gratifying. I got everything to fit perfectly. Ron Hausmann P.E. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabnut Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 HI Mr. Hausmann. I love the Kissel. Great resurrection! A real unique body and I am happy to see it saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabnut Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 (edited) To weigh in on the actual topic, I will give an example of pricing for the Durant model M-4 Sedan I am presently doing. To start with I checked the current pricing of a comparable Model A which was a 29 Briggs Fordor. I took that price (given blueprints exist and these kits are quantity manufactured) and added some premium for one off work, back engineering, and jig construction and priced the complete wood structure ( including door wood and new seat wood) assembled ready for tin installation in the neighborhood of $12000,00. The M-4 Durant body is not terribly complex and The 1929 Chevrolet sedan I am doing would probably fall closer to $16-17K. Pricing depends on body complexity (lots of angles and complex curves means more jig work) and how much back engineering is required to ensure the body is returned as close to original dimensions as can be determined. Now given that other makes then Ford will not have the volume, I wouldn't expect wood could be produced at lesser cost. If people are not willing to pay the cost for readily available Ford kits I don't expect them to be willing to pay premiums for other makes either. That leaves those people who really want the car and not too concerned with cost or return on investment. I expect that wood could not be produced cheaper then I can do, as presently I have zero overhead. Soon I will be expanding to a larger space and costs will increase for me but I am planning on absorbing most of that cost as this is mostly fun for me. All the best, Edited August 27, 2017 by Cabnut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralley123 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 On 8/25/2017 at 2:59 AM, C Carl said: Hmmmmm , welllllllll , I am sure this '30 Buick I will be picking up soon will be needing some woodwork. Way beyond anything I can do , or have enough remaining time to learn. Now evidently "Cabnut" who frequently contributes , is jigged up for Chev and other makes of certain years. Have you looked through the links from his posting below under Commercial Advertisements : "Automotive Wood Bodies" ? It is fascinating to see the progress of you guys who are such fine craftsmen , real artists in metal and wood. I am afraid it will be quite a challenge for me just to get the old Buick driveable. Chistech : How is your Olds coming along ? Taylormade : How far out are you from being able to take to the road again ? Bloo : Where in the Pacific Northwest are you ? I am in the process of abandoning Seattle for Ellensburg ? In signing off for the night , I imagine all the commercial shops doing skilled work must be very busy with projects for well-heeled customers. There is an enormous amount of money being spent by people who have it. - Carl do you knw anyone that would have wooden pattern for buick you can call 717-965-6645 thanks troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 HI Troy ! What series and body style is your '29 Buick ? This is a series 40 Doctors Coupe. If you click into high res , you can see that some of the wood is in pretty good shape. Particularly where the hinges fasten , as this is the area you have asked about. First , I understand that '29 and '30 Buicks are extremely similar. If your body and mine share the parts you need , I can make prints since these pieces are accessible now. My feeling is that year to year commonality is likely , we just need to know series and body style. Also , we should include this discussion down in Pre - War Buick. Some of the Buick people don't get far from Buick specific forums. There is also a fellow not too far from you who is parting out a 40 series chassis. He may still have a gas tank cover. He will be coming back from Florida in a couple of months. I sure wish I could do the same ! I will give you a call. - Carl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 On 2/25/2018 at 5:16 PM, ralley123 said: you knw anyone that would have wooden pattern for buick you can call 717-965-6645 thanks troy I see some patterns on the car in the picture pull the wood post .send it to me I will help you out --kyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 On 8/26/2017 at 8:19 AM, chistech said: $7k to re-wood my car and assume there are many others who feel the same. I was hoping to bring this price down with a few CNC doing the wood work but with no one seaming to try it will not happen vary ease--kyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabnut Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 CNC probably won't work as these cars weren't held to tolerances tight enough to allow true interchangeability of wood parts. Also include poor assembly line QC and it is difficult the to produce wood parts that will fit every car. Also add differing body styles and limited common pieces there would be no real quantity savings. Given the high number of makes, body styles, year to year changes, and loose (by modern standards) tolerances the only real fix is making and hand fitting parts to a specific body. One size fits all will probably result in less then satisfactory fit which I have seen on many restorations using self made and purchased wood pieces alike. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 I agree with the above. In addition, any car that needs wood likely needs rust repair as well. Wood installation and metal work/rust repair need to be done together for the best result. I do not think there is enough demand to justify the programming costs to produce wood kits. Plus there is the need to stock the innumerable sizes of wood blanks you would need to feed to the CNC. Many pieces require glue up of smaller pieces before you can even begin shaping them. Can a CNC look at the grain of a piece and decide how best to orient the various cuts necessary to produce a usable piece? I am afraid that this is another example, like 3D printing, that sounds great but falls down when you actually include programming time in your cost calculations. There is just not sufficient demand over which to spread the cost of tooling and programming. We currently produce wood "kits" for the '32 Packard 900 and the '33 1001Conv Coupes. We sell maybe 1 every 3-5 years. Even with a well made kit it takes a certain amount of skill to properly assemble the wood and attach the sheet metal. It is a shame as bad wood and the cost to replace it stops many lower value cars from ever being restored. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sligermachine Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 I would have been happy to pay 5 G to get a wood kit for a 1925 Master Roadster . I would be driving it by now -- kyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManualOldsOnly Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Christech did you ever start making wood? Im working on a 33 olds currently and looking to repair the wood. Too new still to DM, sorry to dig up an old thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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