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New high zinc oil in the stores


Rivdrivn

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Guest Mr Jones

Is this the recommended oil for original nailheads?

Here in Australia we have Penrite, of which the Classic Light 20W-60 looks similar and is rated as a suitable replacement for the SAE 50 oils.

I wonder how the two oils compare in real world use.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/pdf/tech/VVC_Brochure.pdf

Edited by Mr Jones (see edit history)
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Recommended oils can discussed till the cows come home. I personally would never use a 20-50. 10-30 for newer/tighter engines and 10-40 for higher mileage like 70k and up.

It is advisable to use an oil with high zinc content which is actually called "high" by todays standards but was average for oils 10-15 years ago. Most oils that have high zinc will be classified as a racing oil. Looking at the specs, the Valvoline VR1 does have high zinc content 14ppm so it would be fine. Penngrade1 brand has a slightly higher level at 15ppm than VR1 but Penngrade1 is not as easily obtained in some areas. My local AP carries Penngrade1 so that's what I use in my car in old Indian

 

While this topic has been beat to death for years on every car club discussion forum and magazine, I still have my doubts that using standard modern oil would cause problems for the average Riviera owner who might drive their car like an old lady a couple thousand miles a year. If this was the case older engines would be failing at an alarming rate because there are still a lot of people who aren't aware of the reduced zinc in modern oil. Higher RPM, hard driving, hot temperatures, HP performance mods (particularly increased valve spring pressures) it becomes much more important.

Regardless if it is needed or not, why take the chance when high zinc content oils are readily available so we run high zinc oil.

Edited by JZRIV (see edit history)
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As Jason said, this subject can be cussed and discussed till the cows come home.  The brand of oil is not nearly important as the levels of zinc and phosphate.  ANY flat tapped engine (lifters and pushrods) requires a heavy dose of zinc and phosphate.  It's rated as PPM - parts per million.  The best thing to do is study them for yourselves.  There's plenty of info on the Internet to help you decide what's best for your climate and driving conditions. Don't take the word of your buddy who says what or why he likes it,  This question comes up every year at the ROA tech session and different responses from the crowd as well.  The thing here is that no one has had any bearing failure (yet) so they think their choice is the right one. But they also do not tear their engines apart and they don't have the technology for inspecting them properly. One ROA member who is also into vintage car drag racing, racing at the Bonneville salt flats, and is a regular attendee at the annual SEMA show, goes to the session on lubricants every year to see what's changed.  The only thing new is usually some company has entered the market.  He comes away saying that any oil with the proper levels of zinc and phosphate is good. The other thing he's told me is that the oil companies really frown on uses of additives. They do more harm than good. Just choose the right oil in the first place.

 

Look at the website or call the oil company and ask for their recommendations based on your engine and driving habits.  

 

After all was said and done I settled on Mobil 1 fully synthetic 15W-50. It has 1300 PPM of zinc.  Other oils, especially oils designed for diesel applications - yes you can use those in your engine - usually have high levels of zinc and phosphate. Shells Rotella is an example.

 

The reason I chose the Mobil 1 was because I can buy a five quart jug at Wally-World for under $25.00. You're going to be paying big bucks for self described "racing oils" which usually have the higher concentrations of zinc and phosphate.  

 

I also use real Wix filters from O'Reilly's.  Wix makes NAPA filters but O'Reilly's is closer to my house and on the way home from Walmart.   I think filters would be just as important as a discussion item as oil.  Look online for research from the "Filter Doctor."

 

Ed

 

 

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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There are a lot of recommendations for using Rotella T6 5w-40 (1264 ppm zinc, 1147 ppm phosphate; about 50% more than conventional PCMO) and Wix filters in older engines.  If you're interested, Autozone currently has the oil for $60 for 2.5 gallons (enough for two oil changes), with a $12.50 rebate.

 

And is that a five gallon jug or a five quart jug of Mobil 1 at Wally World? ;)

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Just to get a handle on the 15 PPM concentration, here is a good explanation:

 

How is ppm related to concentration?

 

ppm means parts-per-million. But what parts? The amount of particles in a suspension can be expressed as the total volume OR total mass of particles in a unit volume of water AND THESE TWO NUMBERS WILL ONLY BE THE SAME IF THE DENSITY OF THE PARTICLES IS 1 g/cm3.

If ppm is expressed as THE VOLUME of particles to a unit volume of water, then ppm BY VOLUME is equal to µl/l.

However, if ppm is expressed as THE MASS of particles in a unit volume of water, then ppm BY MASS is equal to mg/l.

To convert from ppm by volume to ppm by mass, multiply by the density of the particles. For mineral grains (clay, silt and sand sizes), this will typically be 2.65 g/cm3. For example, a sample with a volume concentration of 25 µl/l will have a mass concentration of 25*2.65 = 66 mg/l.

To convert from ppm by mass to ppm by volume, divide by the density of the particles. For example, a sample with a mass concentration of 100 mg/l will have a volume concentration of 38 µl/l.

When ppm is used as a measure for the suspended particle concentration, it is therefore very important to specify if the concentrations are ppm BY VOLUME or ppm BY MASS, to facilitate comparisons with data where the concentrations are reported in µl/l or mg/l.

 

I have quite a bit of experience treating various types of large water loops. We controlled 1000 to 1500 PPM in most inhibitor instances. Other levels are similar. That is 1 - 1.5%. 15 PPM is getting pritty fine. Better be sure to use the smart zinc that searches for tappet bottoms.

 

My oil changes are once a year with about 1200 miles of easy driving. I just buy a jug of Havoline because Texas Oil Company is written on  the label. And I think some Indian in Texas might be riding through his oil wells in a '60's Cadillac convertible. It makes me happy.

 

Honestly, if I walk in and find a jug labeled in one language I will by that instead. Comprendes?

Bernie

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3 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Just to get a handle on the 15 PPM concentration, here is a good explanation:

 

How is ppm related to concentration?

 

ppm means parts-per-million. But what parts? The amount of particles in a suspension can be expressed as the total volume OR total mass of particles in a unit volume of water AND THESE TWO NUMBERS WILL ONLY BE THE SAME IF THE DENSITY OF THE PARTICLES IS 1 g/cm3.

If ppm is expressed as THE VOLUME of particles to a unit volume of water, then ppm BY VOLUME is equal to µl/l.

However, if ppm is expressed as THE MASS of particles in a unit volume of water, then ppm BY MASS is equal to mg/l.

To convert from ppm by volume to ppm by mass, multiply by the density of the particles. For mineral grains (clay, silt and sand sizes), this will typically be 2.65 g/cm3. For example, a sample with a volume concentration of 25 µl/l will have a mass concentration of 25*2.65 = 66 mg/l.

To convert from ppm by mass to ppm by volume, divide by the density of the particles. For example, a sample with a mass concentration of 100 mg/l will have a volume concentration of 38 µl/l.

When ppm is used as a measure for the suspended particle concentration, it is therefore very important to specify if the concentrations are ppm BY VOLUME or ppm BY MASS, to facilitate comparisons with data where the concentrations are reported in µl/l or mg/l.

 

I have quite a bit of experience treating various types of large water loops. We controlled 1000 to 1500 PPM in most inhibitor instances. Other levels are similar. That is 1 - 1.5%. 15 PPM is getting pritty fine. Better be sure to use the smart zinc that searches for tappet bottoms.

 

My oil changes are once a year with about 1200 miles of easy driving. I just buy a jug of Havoline because Texas Oil Company is written on  the label. And I think some Indian in Texas might be riding through his oil wells in a '60's Cadillac convertible. It makes me happy.

 

Honestly, if I walk in and find a jug labeled in one language I will by that instead. Comprendes?

Bernie

I don't know, that's just how the industry rates it. As long as it's over 1,000 PPM I don't care how they come up with the formula as long as it's an industry standard.  

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Rivnut, any concern about switching to synthetic in the Rv and having seals get a little loose.  I'm getting ready to change the oil in all my cars and bought 4 5qt Mobil 1's at Wally World.  Didn't get Mobil 1 for Riv, have used Dino oil in that, 10W-30.  My rear main seal is already a bit weepy and would hate to let her loose.

 

I use Puralator gold series filters in daily drivers, still have a few old AC's for the Riv.

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2 minutes ago, Kool-Aid said:

 

Maybe not.  Racing oils are generally made for a whole different performance profile.

 

Without making a specific recommendation (because this can quickly turn into a religious argument), you might consider looking at an HDEO (High Demand Engine Oil) like the aforementioned Rotella T3, T5, or T6), Walmart (!) SuperTech, etc. rather than a conventional PCMO (Passenger Car Motor Oil). If you're leery of putting "diesel oil" in your car (don't be; they're certified for gas engines also), Mobil 1 High Mileage has a good bit more zinc than most.

 

Just as important: don't skimp on the filter.  There are a lot of recommendations for Wix 51049 or Purolator rather than the downmarket brands (Fram, AutoDeath house brand, etc.).  BTW, NAPA filters are made by Wix.

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13 hours ago, JZRIV said:

Recommended oils can discussed till the cows come home. I personally would never use a 20-50. 10-30 for newer/tighter engines and 10-40 for higher mileage like 70k and up.

 

AY-MEN!  Stick with the recommended weight (the winter weight on multi-vis oil doesn't count), unless you have low oil pressure. Putting 50 weight in an engine designed for 30 just loads the pump up with stress & starves the bearings. 

 

If the engine is worn enough that it's showing low oil pressure, it's time to step up to a heavier oil. 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, SpecialEducation said:

 

AY-MEN!  Stick with the recommended weight (the winter weight on multi-vis oil doesn't count), unless you have low oil pressure. Putting 50 weight in an engine designed for 30 just loads the pump up with stress & starves the bearings. 

 

If the engine is worn enough that it's showing low oil pressure, it's time to step up to a heavier oil. 

 

 

I actually use Mobil 1 synthetic in the '65 hot rod Riv with the new build and put the 50 weight VR1 in the high mileage '50 straight eight. Both are about $25 per 5 quarts at O'Reilly's. 

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2 hours ago, riv2x4 said:

Rivnut, any concern about switching to synthetic in the Rv and having seals get a little loose.  I'm getting ready to change the oil in all my cars and bought 4 5qt Mobil 1's at Wally World.  Didn't get Mobil 1 for Riv, have used Dino oil in that, 10W-30.  My rear main seal is already a bit weepy and would hate to let her loose.

 

I use Puralator gold series filters in daily drivers, still have a few old AC's for the Riv.

My rear main leaks too, that's my hesitation in going full synthetic. I want the added performance of it, but I'm worried about it leaking while driving.

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1 hour ago, rocky5517 said:

I bought some Brad Penn from a speed shop in Paterson NJ. The owner said that oil is one of the few that you can mix viscosities.

Just curious, how much does that run per quart? 

 

I under stand that Joe Gibbs has developed a good oil too.

 

Read something interesting the other day about NASCAR engines. Apparently they some kind of babbitt film on the other bearings. The last I heard of babbitt was on cars from the thirties and forties.

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New oil is better than old oil, and I don't recall a spate of oil-related damage to these engines over the years.  Considering how little these cars are driven, you'll be dead and gone before you see any.  There is no magic elixir, nor is there a death in a bottle.  Driving beats worrying; pick yer poison and dump it in.

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Hey everyone, so I'm hearing don't skimp on the filter, find an oil that works for you in your budget. I've got next to nil experience with cars and what I do know was all high and dry between AZ, UT, and CO. Now I'm in GA with my 63. So for oil, and pretty crumby seals (currently leaking tranny fluid at a good rate from power steering res/tranny itself, who knows and a smallish oil leak.) What is the "consensus" on a reasonable oil for hot and gross humid climate? Filter, I'm looking at a K&N 2003, a WIX 51049, or a Purolator of some sort. I heard gold earlier, but the latest greatest on their site says BOSS? Engine and tranny rebuild are out of the question until winter really sets in hear in north GA.

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Dynaflows, as is in your '63, are notorious for seal leaks but otherwise work find. Perhaps rather than a rebuild, just a reseal.  Same with the power steering pump/reservoir.  I had an anomaly that I learned to live with on my '63.  The power steering would leak ONLY if I didn't shut the car off with the crossbar on the steering wheel in a horizontal position.  If I pulled into a parking spot and left the wheel off center, it would leave it's mark.  I just put a pan on the garage floor with some oil dry in it and made sure that I checked the tranny fluid often.  A pan, some oil dry, and a couple of quarts of tranny fluid were a whole lot cheaper than pulling the trans and having it redone.  Somethings you sometimes just learn to live with. ;) 

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If you want to use good, readily available stuff without overthinking it, get a 5-quart jug of Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-30 and a WIX 51049 filter.

 

If you're going to rebuild the engine this winter, ignore this (which some may dispute as idiocy to begin with), but...  If you don't know where your engine's been or what's in it, you can also go for a quick clean using 4 quarts of oil and a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil.  Drive it for a bit (not around the block; 1000 miles or so), drain it, then refill with your oil of choice.  The idea is that it will loosen a bunch of the crap that has accumulated in the engine so you can catch it in the filter and flush it out with the next oil change.  One of the keys to doing this is keeping the gunk in suspension rather just breaking it loose and moving it around.  An oil high in magnesium is good for that.  Again, Rotella T6 has both good detergent properties and a high dose of magnesium.  There is no Jesus Juice, but a T6/MMO combination might be about as good as you're going to get within the limitations of common sense (e.g. don't start dumping kerosene into your crankcase).  And don't skimp on the filter during this step.  Remember, the whole idea here is to get dirt into your filter so you can isolate it and remove it.

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I posted this on the Buick Post War forum.

 

Look at the Petroleum Quality Institute of America web site.    http://www.pqiamerica.com/

with a little searching you can get info on different brands of oil......also transmission fluid and antifreeze.

 

Here is what I found.......this is not all the oils,  just random brands I chose and looked at their zinc content.

Super Tech Heavy Duty (Wal Mart)   1,298

Shell Rotella T4 Triple (Diesel oil)  1,203

Valvoline Premium Blue (Diesel oil)  1,141

Mobil  Delvac 1300 Super (Diesel oil)  886

Super Tech Full Synthetic (Wal Mart)  838

Valvoline full synthetic   828

Amsoil  synthetic        826

Royal Purple synthetic  813

Mobil 1 full synthetic  709

 

Update....I purchased the WalMart Super Tech Heavy Duty on Monday...my store only have it in 15-40 and it was just under $10 for a gallon.

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There are 28 different Mobil 1 full synthetic oils listed on their website. The Zinc levels listed by them range from 750 to 1850.  So much depends on the prescribed use and the viscosity.  Their high mileage 10-W40 has 1,000 ppm, and their Fully Synthetic 0-W40 has 1,000 ppm.  Both are suggested for older flat tappet performance engines. 

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Super helpful fellas. I don't know what's gone on with the motor or the tranny. Seem to run smooth and shifts smoothly. I'll try the 1000 miles or so with the Marvel and a WIX and see where she lies. I would DEFINITELY prefer to do seals over a rebuild. You guys are great. Can't thank you all enough.

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You can buy a lot of oil and cat litter for what it costs to rebuild an engine. :D 

 

FYI, most so-called "diesel oils" are also approved for and acceptable to use in gas engines.   They're typically called diesel oils because they're primarily formulated for diesel engines (e.g. properties like more detergents), and are certified to different standards.

 

Speaking of standards, oil is certified to standards which change every few years.  The current standard for Passenger car oil is SN.  When these cars were new, the applicable standard was SC.  Things have changed.  ;) 

 

IMHO, there are scads of oils out there which are perfectly fine to use in these engines.  You're not going to burn it up or wear it out unless you go way off the reservation.  No, many of the newer oils don't have as much zinc as the older oils (although you can still get a high-zinc oil if you want one).  However, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, because the new oils also have a lot of other beneficial additives that the older oils didn't have -- and some of those additives mitigate the effects of lower zinc levels.

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  • 6 years later...

According to the original owner who rebuilt the 425 in my 64 he used 5w 20. I don’t think the new engine has more than 20k miles given the owner hardly drove it. Any suggestions or stick with what’s in there? I assume he didn’t use synthetic either. 

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Since this thread started, MUCH has changed in the world of motor oil.  Mr. Lake Speed, Jr. has mentioned the different type of zddp and their uses.  Something to do with how soon they activate?  I respect his tribologist certification, yet I have not heard of different types of zddp in the www.bobistheoilguy.com forums in the decades I've been checking the "Virgin Oil Analysis" forums there.  I also consider him a "somewhat interested" person as he was employed by a motor oil company which brought out a particular line of oils.  So I take what he says as "good information to be further verified".

 

In looking at some of the older oil analysis tests online, it appears that the presumption that all oils of prior times had lots of zddp in them is not completely accurate, in all cases.  The amounts could vary by brand.  In those earlier times, the detergency of the oil was deemed to be more important.  "Long chain" Pennsylvania crude oil was supposed to be better than other crude oils, as to "protection", but past that, it was the additive package that made things work.

 

In the later 1960s, as chemistry progressed, wider-range viscosity oils appeared.  10W-40s and 20W-50s appeared in several brands.  The higher-viscosity multi-grades were termed "Super Oils" for their advanced chemistry.  Nobody cared if the "50" meant more horserpower was needed to run the oil pump, back then.

 

In the 1980s, a mechanic shop we sold GM parts to called up and wanted a crank for a '75 Pontiac 400 V8.  Seems it had about 60K miles and a loud main bearing knock.  The owner changed the oil to 20W-50 and added 2 cans of STP to the oil to thicken it and hopefully quieten things down.  Well, with the thick oil, things got louder.

 

In looking at engine clearances, the typical piston skirt clearances on modern engines are not very different from 1960s engines.  Same with crankshaft bearings.  EACH has a clearance based on the size of the piston or bearing journal.  Nothing "tightened up" on modern engines, as might be suspected.

 

What HAS changed is the cylinder honing procedures, width of the piston rings, and everything now has "coated" piston skirts.  Much of this is about taking friction out of the motor, which means more horsepower can get to the flywheel.  Lighter viscosity oils are about taking less power to run the oil pump PLUS getting oil "to pressure" and "where it needs to be", about 40% sooner on a cold start.  Plus less power to run the oil pump.  More power and better fuel economy can result.  Quicker-acting VVT and cyl deactivation activities are probably expedited, too.

 

On the older motors, the oil pump and oil pickup tube/screen were very close to each other.  Oil pressure happened very quickly with a straight-weight "30" motor oil.  On almost every modern design, the screen/pickup is at the rear of the motor and the oil pump is on the nose of the crankshaft, almost 2 feet away!  GOT to have quick-flowiing oil for decent longevity!

 

BGack to the zddp issue . . . ONE thing to also consider is that in the 1960s, normal oil change intervals were 3000miles, until Ford lengthened theirs to 6000 miles.  Chrysler had their engines set at 4000 miles.  In times before we knew about zddp.  Basestocks of oils were not as good then as now, obviously.  Drag racers usually changed their oil sooner, anyway, to keep the engines lasting a good while.  So the BRAND of oil was important for any kind of high-performance use.  Plus camshafts with higher lift and higher spring pressures were more aftermarket than OEM prior to about 1962.

 

In those days, the average customer had brand preferences, for whatever reason.  One criteria had to do with how "clean" the engine was when valve cover gaskets had to be replaced and such.  "Cleaner" was better, then as now.

 

Valvoline had been sponsoring drag racing events for years, back then.  I came to notice that many "old-time" hot rodders and such generally used Valvoline motor oil.  I realized this in the 1980s.

 

In some of the forum postings/discussions of zddp levels in www.bobistheoilguy.com forums, just adding zddp to any formulation is not always the best answer.  The additional zddp, past a certain point, degrades the detergency additives in the oil.  Certainly, some oils designed for NASCAR racing had 3000ppm zddp in them, but they were also not recommended for street use.  Those engines got an oil change every 500 miles or so anyway, so detergency was not an issue.  More is not better.

 

API "SL" oils had 1000ppm of zddp in them.  The later "SM" oils were down to 800ppm zddp or less.  The more recent "SP" oils are up to 900ppm zddp, plus a testing wear spec related to the wear on timing chain pins.  Plus a different balance of calcium and others to allow the zddp to work better (according to Mr. Speed, Jr.) at the lower concentrations.  Zddp is usually talked about with respect to cam lobe wear, but it also related to engine bearing wear, too.

 

In normal use, every one of the vintage engine designs were designed to use a "30" viscosity oil in 70 degree F ambient temperatures, down to 32 degrees F in colder times.  Colder than that?  20W and even 10W oils.  The common multi-weight in the 1960s was 10W-30.  Many allegedly ended up as 10W-20 after 1000+ miles, but they still worked well.  10W-40 happened with the elevated operating temperatures of 1970s emission-controlled engines.  20W-50 was there for additional protection in more severe operating situations.

 

The current Valvoline VR-1 oils, in any viscosity, are stated to have 1400ppm zddp in them, per Valvoline's product literature.  Same with the Amsoil Z-Rod oil, which is synthetic.  Castrol has a "GTX Classic" motor oil with similar zddp amounts ("Classic" is prominent on the bottle!).  Used to be that the 1000ppm zddp was the "low standard", but testing by GM indicated that the "SM" oil would work in their high-performance ZZ430 big block engines, per the installation instructions.  Which means that the engine had been "fire tested" before it left the engine plant and "run-in" for 30 minutes in a dyno cell.  

 

These things tend to follow my suspicion that current "SP" oils with their decreased calcium content (due to issues in modern turbo 4-cyl engines and high-calcium oils), at about 900ppm zddp, can be fine with many older engines.  AFTER the cam is fully broken-in if changed.

 

As mentioned, this subject can have as many answers as there can be the number of people answering them.  Still going well past when the cows have gone to sleep.  Do your best research and act accordingly.

 

The back of the Mobil 1 website has a chart of the zddp level in each of their motor oiol products.  Kind of hard to find, but it's there AND current.  Valvoline also had information in their Product Data Sheets, on their website.  Other brands can be similar, but not always.  Remember, too, that it is the OEMs and "current production vehicles" which the oil manufacturers have to be concerned about rather than just a small segment of the total market.  BTAIM  Otherwise, the www.bobistheoilguy.com forums or PQIA forums can be two great sources where oil analysis is done and results posted.

 

Whatever works!

NTX5467

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WE tend to forget and  dont actually   go back to basics  ,when it comes to oils,  when i lived in California, i had a classic car collection of 

about 15  different makes of cars , always about that many  buying and selling , the area i lived was the Sacramento valley where it gets very hot

102  to 110 during the 3 to 4 months of summer,  so all my classics were drivers, about 3 to 5 of these were Buicks, but in those 10 years i lived there i used   Penzoil 10-40 in the summer,  and in the  colder   months switched to  Penzoil  15-30,--i never did find out  what the zinc content was  in those days,  but was very pleased with that brand, and  never ones did i ever have a engine problem, with all those cars.

At the start here i said back to basics,--one has to read  your original owners manual, and study it very carefully to the grade of oil you should use

during the cold and hot  temperatures you get where you live.----i think this is one  of the most important  areas to stick to.

Here in Australia i use Valvoline XLD premium mineral ,15-40 all the time as where i live here temps are from  approx 50 to 90   all the time.

and it is high in zinc.  and i have never used  synthetic oil ,only in my  latest  Lexus NX 350 f sport Hybrid.

IMG_2559.JPGoil.JPG

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In the states, 15W-40 was the dino oil for things like GM Duramax diesel pickup trucks.  That viscosity was specific to diesels only.  When syn oils for the diesels came out, they were 5W-40 instead.  Another diesel-specific viscosity.

 

As things have progressed, 15W-40 can be had in syn, too.  As 5W-40 oils have other non-diesel applications in cars and the current SP ratings.  

 

THEN came "Rotella Gas Truck" oil which is for pickup trucks with gas engines.  Same oil specs, as to zddp, as "car oils", from the analysis I have seen posted at www.bobistheoilguy.com .

 

NTX5467

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