New here- 1st Post: what is it

[Guest tenalquot]

Hello all,

 

I'm a historian that works with archaeologists surveying sites on public lands.  Frequently we encounter derelict cars associated with historic sites which we note in our surveys.  I'm hoping we might draw on your expertise to identify some of the stuff we see. 

 

The only visible ID mark on this one is on the engine near the flywheel.  It says 35BA, then underneath, 3677-10

 

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

 

 

[nzcarnerd]

If you have a good look around the engine you might find some casting marks. There might give a clue as to who cast the block and maybe even when. Maybe also measure the cylinder bore and guestimate the stroke length.

[Grandpa]

The limited number of manifold connections to the six cylinder block seem unusual.  Also, there are three plugs on each end of the block on side by the valves, which is also odd.  I would guess that the car is circa late teens.

[Guest tenalquot]

If the vehicle's life-span were 10-20 years, that would put it in the right date range for the site we we're surveying- late 1920s-early 1930s. 

[Grandpa]

Here is one possible solution to the design of the intake and exhaust passages within the engine block.

I assumed that the intake valves are a bit less corroded than the exhaust valves and that the large ports at each end of the block are for the intake.

[Guest tenalquot]

41 minutes ago, Grandpa said:

Here is one possible solution to the design of the intake and exhaust passages within the engine block.

I assumed that the intake valves are a bit less corroded than the exhaust valves and that the large ports at each end of the block are for the intake.

 

 

Interesting!

[dictator27]

Interesting suggestion, Grandpa (I'm one too), but you have two exhaust valves side by side and the intake and exhaust passages would have to cross each other in the block which would be unusual.  Interesting that it has only 6 ports in th block.

 

Terry

[Guest tenalquot]

Here's the best pic we have of the right  side of the block:

 

Is it possible the intake manifold was connected to, or part of, the head(s)?  

Edited August 10, 2017 by tenalquot (see edit history)

[oldford]

If this was an F Head engine, all ports would be exhaust with intakes in the head. Similar to Reo T6. The studs look long enough to go up through an overhead...

 

Frank

 

Wait... the valves are all there... Duh!

Edited August 11, 2017 by oldford (see edit history)

[dictator27]

It is possible, but at the moment I can only think of one and this isn't it.  The 1920-24 Studebaker Light 6 had the intake manifold cast as part of its aluminum cylinder head.  The valves in the Light 6 are angled toward the cylinders, the ones in this engine aren't.

 

Terry

[Grandpa]

The engine block intake and exhaust passages have to cross within the block with only six manifold connection ports.  I would think that most engine designers would have the exhaust exit ports close to each exhaust valve to minimize heat transfer to the coolant, but that doesn't seem to be the case with this engine.  The three core support plugs (grouped near each other) at each end of the engine block may offer a clue to some internal intake and exhaust passages.  The marked-up picture (above) that I submitted may work with cross over passages within the engine block, but doesn't make much design sense.  It design seems like unnecessary complication to the engine block casting.

 

Hopefully, someone will be able to ID the car and / or the engine, as I am at a loss to explain a logical manifold arrangement.

[oldcar]

I don't think that that particular engine is a 1921-22 Light six. My car has an Aluminium cylinder head with the inlet manifold cast into the head. and the valves were at a 20 degree angle. Just how this all worked I will not know until I have the car "at home" on Tuesday. There is a spare aluminium head in the rear of the car.

The aluminium heads were introduced in 1921 and lasted until early 1923. These cylinder heads were NOT interghangable with the later cast iron heads, which indicates (to me) that the blocks, porting and manifolds were different and exclusive to the cars with aluminium heads. Don't take my word for it I am very new to 1920's Studebakers. Some unkind people will tell you that I am a slow learner. Here I am 80 years old and still playing with old cars. Perhaps someone can point me in the direction of some good drawings for the 1921-2 Light Six engine.

 

Bj

[oldford]

I just found this photo in another thread regarding the light six. Notice the intake passages and the carburetor mounted to the head...

 

[Stude Light]

Nice picture of a Light Six engine...mine . Definitely not a Light Six. Please note the cover on the front of the engine, maybe that is a good clue to start with. Also, looks like the transmission bolts directly to the engine block.

Scott

[30sclassics]

I believe it is a Continental engine, but haven't researched the car make.  Here is a list of cars that used Continental engines:

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2008/12/10/companies-that-used-continental-engines-the-complete-list/

[dictator27]

The six ports in the block do line up with exhaust valves which would at least hint that the intake manifold is part of the head.  The head studs appear to be quite long which might indicate that the head is fairly high.  Where is the distributor located?  Is it driven off the back of the generator?

[Grandpa]

Having the intake manifold as part of the cylinder head is a possibility, but unlike the Studebaker Light Six engine, all of the cylinder head studs on the unknown engine are the same length.

 

Having a picture of the top surface (the deck) of a Light Six engine block would be helpful.

[nzcarnerd]

7 minutes ago, Grandpa said:

Having the intake manifold as part of the cylinder head is a possibility, but unlike the Studebaker Light Six engine, all of the cylinder head studs on the unknown engine are the same length.

 

Having a picture of the top surface (the deck) of a Light Six engine block would be helpful.

As someone pointed out the Stude engine has its valves on an angle.

[Guest tenalquot]

3 hours ago, dictator27 said:

The six ports in the block do line up with exhaust valves which would at least hint that the intake manifold is part of the head.  The head studs appear to be quite long which might indicate that the head is fairly high.  Where is the distributor located?  Is it driven off the back of the generator?

No distributor location apparent.  The distributor may have been on top- there is a hole in the middle top of the block that could've been for the shaft.  I'm wondering if it was a split-head with the distributor between?

[Grandpa]

The distributor was very likely driven by a shaft at the rear of a gear driven generator.  This method of driving the distributor was fairly common prior to about 1920.

[Grandpa]

This is an example of a distributor driven by the generator shaft.

[CarlLaFong]

If those are intake and exhaust valves, then having a head with integral intake manifold is impossible. The valve has to be in between the carb and the cylinder. I have stared at the proposed valve and port diagram and it seems equally impossible. How do the runners pass by each other in the limited amount of space available?  They would have to be half an inch in diameter to allow for coolant flow and to eliminate thin spots that would crack and allow exhaust in the inlets and vice versa. They certainly can't intersect each other.

Very odd

[oldcar]

It certainly is slightly weird if the six ports do line up with the exhaust there is no sign of any inlet either on the reverse side of the block or if it like the 1921-2 Light Six with the aluminium cylinder head, the inlet manifold cast into the head there would have to be transfer holes between the head and the block. There is no evidence of this either. I think that some more information is required. Physically checking the block would quickly show which valves the ports served . Just be carefull that there are no nasty spiders or other biting insects lurking in the ports before you poke your finder into them.

 

Bj

Edited August 12, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Grandpa]

As noted above, a valve for each cylinder does line-up with a port on the side of the block.  However, there isn't any passages to the intake valves if the intake manifold was contained as part of the head.  The large holes (about 3/4" diameter) must be for coolant.

[28 Chrysler]

On the early Chrysler engines the intake runner is internally cast under the exhaust with just 2 intake ports.

I think this block has a similar setup. Notice the 3 casting plugs on the front of the block the upper one is most likely for the water jacket.

I think you will find that the two middle and end ports will be for the exhaust.

[mike6024]

So would this have had an updraft carb? Just asking.

Edited August 17, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

More than likely.

[Grandpa]

I would like to offer some observations and my conclusions.  If the exhaust and intake flow path channels cross within the engine block, the vertical clearance is limited, however, the point of the crossover could be a rectangle which would still allow a reasonable cross sectional area.  These early engines are long stroke and low revving.  Thus, flow turbulence and pressure drop isn't much of a problem due to direction changes and restrictions in the flow path.

[Mark Simmons]

I believe the last picture with the exhaust ports is the right configuration for this motor. I see no hole in the block surface for a distributor to be set into or driven by the camshaft. Therefore the head must have had the intake ports,passages and carb mount. I also do not believe this to be a Studebaker light 6 block based on the length of the studs to hold the head on.The outer rows of studs seems way to long unless the head was held on by a spacer and nut system. The center row of studs also seems to short based on the picture in post 13. All these studs look to be the same length. I am not familiar with these particular motors. These observations are strictly from almost 60 years of turning wrenches do with them what you will.

[Grandpa]

This is a possible solution to the manifold configuration of the engine - - -

[28 Chrysler]

Grandpa explained the layout better than my feeble attempt .

The big question still is "who made it"

[mike6024]

Yes the real question is "who made it" but that layout doesn't seem right.

[Grandpa]

Request for originator, "Tenalquot" - - -

 

On a future trip to Tenalquot Prairie (I assume), please consider the following tasks, which would help ID the unknown car and / or the engine:

 

• Check the ports in the block for the presence of any lengthwise passages.

• Measure the bore of a cylinder (to 1/16" accuracy).

• Measure the distance from the top of the block to each of the six pistons (to 1/16" accuracy) to determine the stroke.  TDC is likely not flush with top of the block.

• Take pictures of the rear axle (the differential) if present.

• Take pictures of the arrangement of the rear springs, i.e., how they are attached to the frame and the rear end.

• If the front and rear axles are present, please measure the wheelbase (both sides) so that an average can be calculated.

• Take pictures of any numbers or letters that are cast into the engine block, such as a firing order.

 

[Grandpa]

I would like to add an observation to my post #30, above - - -

The ports, located at each end of the engine block, are larger than the other ones since they service the exhaust from two cylinders.

[30sclassics]

I believe this is a Continental 6V engine, used in the Saxon and the Moon.  More info. is needed, including the bore, and hopefully, the approximate wheelbase.  If you look at the right side of the engine, there appears to be a carburetor attached to the block.  The space between the number 3 and 4 cylinders is larger, which would permit an intake passage over to the lengthwise internal intake manifold.

[Grandpa]

My thoughts on the right side of the engine:

I believe the object on the right side of the engine is the water pump.  Most carburetors of the period were made of brass and likely would have been removed for its' scrap value years ago.

[mike6024]

It could even be that all 4 of those ports are inlets and only the two outer ones are exhaust. Also I saw a pic of a 4 cylinder Continental with the distributor mounted top center in the middle of the head. Could that be what this one had, since I see a hole in the block between the two center cylinders?

[dictator27]

I think grandpa is right.  The object on the tight side is most likely a water pump as it would line up with an accessory drive.

 

Terry

[mike6024]

Here's the link where that picture came from btw Continental from 1925 Moon 

 

[28 Chrysler]

Notice the manifold locations on this six cylinder.