1914 SC-4, An Introduction and a Request

[rustyjazz1938]

Hello All,

 

I was lucky enough to purchase a 1914 SC-4 a few months back. The car is to my eyes (perhaps inexperienced) surprisingly original given its age, although it has new-ish paint and top, the interior is pretty much original (at least I think it is). I'm a new person to posting on this forum, although I have been looking through the posts for a while. I've been tinkering with antique cars for a few years now, although this car is the oldest (and least common of the makes I have). I must admit I'm very excited to enter into the Studebaker realm. I am continuously impressed with the quality of this automobile.

 

The car was running and driveable when I got it, although it needed some work (tune-up, new carb float, plug wires, and some other things). I have been making my way through these tasks, a copy of the owners manual in hand with lots of great information! I have also ordered some other books (This is a Studebaker Year, Vol. 5, for starters). One major issue the car had was that it tended to run warm, and it looked like the cooling system was full of a lot of crud. I have started going through the system to begin cleaning things out when I got to the water pump.When I opened the clamshell cover I was surprised to see what I found inside, in addition to the pieces falling out of it.

 

It looks like some point in the pumps life, it ingested some nasty things breaking a bunch of vanes (see attached picture), and I'd be surprised if it was moving any water at all. I think this probably explains why the engine tended to run so warm.

 

On to the request portion then... I know that spare parts are probably limited for this car, but does anyone have a spare pump that they are willing to part with? I'm not 100% certain which years would work, but I think `13 - `15 would most likely work based on Google image searches. If no spare is available, would someone have a spare impeller (or pump assembly), that they would be willing to loan me, that I might use as a template to make a new one? In absence of a loaner, could someone share some pictures/drawings of what the impeller should look like? The one I have is pretty well trashed, and I am struggling to understand what it looked like originally. 

 

Thanks in advance to all for reading. Any help or comments are greatly appreciated.

 

Respectfully submitted,

 

Rusty

 

I am located in SE Michigan for reference if there is anyone nearby.

 

 

 

[SC38dls]

Rusty (not a good name for the antique car world LOL) welcome to the crazy world of old cars. I have no idea what your impeller should look like but I'm sure someone will come along soon with help. If not you may want to post a request on the general forum. The car looks like it is in good shape. Hope you have success and enjoy the ride.  Have fun. Dave S 

[Gary_Ash]

Call the Studebaker National Museum in South Bend, IN and talk to the archives people.  If you can give them a part number for the impeller, they might be able to supply a copy of the original drawing.  That would make your repair job much easier.  For a price, they can have a museum volunteer search the part number and drawing.  Part drawings from the 1920s and later are usually there, but I'm not sure about ones from the 'Teens.

 

The Horseless Carriage Foundation may have a copy of an old parts price list for a 1914 SC-4 that might have the part number for the impeller.  I can't get their web site to show me how to order it, but maybe you can work it out.

See https://hcfi.org/manualList.php?dir=50&crnt=4085 and their home page at https://hcfi.org/.  A call to their office might work.

 

This might just be a case where 3D printing one stainless steel part could be justified compared to machining one from a hunk of steel using traditional methods.  But, you need the drawing first.

 

Good luck!

 

 

[rustyjazz1938]

Gary and Dave,

 

Thanks for the advice. This isn't my first old car... Just my oldest. I have a friend who has access to a parts book that covers my year, so I think I'll be able to get the number (hopefully). If so, I'll definitely be calling the museum. 

 

I tried the HCFI website link, but frankly it's very hard to work with... Not the best of designs...

 

I also just posted in the Buy/Sell forum, perhaps I'll get some feedback there.

 

I'll be sure to update if something happens. I'm determined to get the old girl back on the road again!

 

Respectfully submitted,

 

Rusty

[GLong]

Hello Rusty.  

I have several water pumps that are NOT Studebaker, but I might be able to salvage an impeller that might fit in your pump housing.  

I'd need to see more of your pump housing to see the design of the pump.  

I also have two or three different new repro castings of water pump impellers that might be workable.  

 

I'm in SE Michigan as well, about 18 miles south of Flint. 

Send me an email message to:  DualValve@gmail.com   and we can see if we can get pump housings and impellers together.  

 

GL.  

 

 

[Bloo]

Do you have any more pictures of your pump? Is this a bronze housing? Is it driven at a right angle to the crankshaft by a flat disc coupler?

 

I don't have a spare, but if this is indeed the same as 1913, I might be able to come up with pictures and maybe measurements.

 

[Studenut1915]

I have a 15 sd4 older paint original interior and wood. I drive it as is and get lots of attention.This is what my water pump looked like. It looks like maybe there was ice in there when the engine was started as the vanes should be straight. after I repaired mine it doesn't get over 140 degrees The attached rough drawing should be enough for you to build a new impeller and shaft. You could probably make a sleeve cut some vanes and weld them to the sleeve. if your housing is not to back you could get possibly sealing it up with JB weld. Good luck and enjoy it. 

[studeq]

The part number for the water pump shaft and impeller is 11020, original 1914 price $2.50. I have most all literature issued by Studebaker for the 1914 series (as well as all other Studebakers).  I am attaching a sampling of the 1914 material. Reprints are available on most. I have more so let me know of specific interests.

[Stude Light]

Hi Richard,

The Parts Manual shows part number 15271 for the impeller and shaft assembly for the 1914 SC4 and 1915 S4. It does not list an impeller only. Water pump complete is part number 10215. I wonder why the discrepancy between the two books.

Scott

[Guest trap442w30]

Stude Light,

At the meet in South Bend you showed me your parts book and the guy with the 1916 showed us his parts book (with pricing) and they were definitely different, I wish I had the time to have compared these two at the time to see what all the differences really were.  This sounds like the same situation since Studeq had listed the pricing also.  I don't know why a parts book and a parts book with pricing would have different part numbers.

Tim

[studeq]

3 hours ago, Stude Light said:

Hi Richard,

The Parts Manual shows part number 15271 for the impeller and shaft assembly for the 1914 SC4 and 1915 S4. It does not list an impeller only. Water pump complete is part number 10215. I wonder why the discrepancy between the two books.

Scott

The part number 15271 is listed for the impeller and shaft for the 1915, not '14, so there must have been a difference. I have both books.

 

[Stude Light]

They probably didn't realize that someone would be checking up on their accuracy 103 years later.

[GLong]

Hey RustyJazz, I have a few rough-castings of water pump impellers, that could be machined to work in your pump.  

If you are at all interested, please email me, and we can get together and see if any of them will work for you.  

Email:   DualValve@gmail.com   

I'm in SE Michigan, so the logistics should be easy.  

 

Greg

 

 

[rustyjazz1938]

All,

 

I'd like to thank you all so much for the help with this. My apologies for being quiet, I've been tackling some other projects, and my day job (always seems to get in the way of the fun stuff!) 

 

I do find it interesting that there is difference in the parts numbers. From information that Stude Light shared I expected that the impellers would be the same between the `14 SC-4 and the `15 SD-4, but looking at the picture from Studenut15, it looks like his impeller material is brass whereas I think mine is a form of steel, which might help to explain the discrepancy further.

 

With the drawings and offer from Greg (I will be in touch, sorry again for the delay), I feel confident I'll be able to get the old girl back on the road again!

 

Thanks again everyone!

 

Rusty

[STUDE48]

Well rusty, I am not sure  i will look in the parts books over the weekend.  How ever I and sure that starting in 16 all the way thru th3 28 gh commander the part number for the impeller was a 16871, and the scroll housing was 16728 tjat was used on the sf ed eg eh el and gh series engines as well as the ton truck. The earlier books are out at tje shop with the series 18 four i am currently working on 

[rustyjazz1938]

Hello all,

 

I thought an update was in order as I've had some success with coming up with a possible solution that I can try. After some research, my father and I stumbled on a water pump impeller for a Johnson/Evinrude outboard motor:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00027GW30/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Given the price, I figured it couldn't hurt to give this a shot. It's rubber, but the diameter was just about spot on, with the height of the bronze hub also matching the original impeller hub height (from what I could measure). A little bit of shaving on the ends of the fins created the clearance needed to fit in the housing. With a piece of 0.75 inch cold rolled steel on hand, I was able to cut and hack a new shaft together and pin it all together with a roll pin.

 

The first picture is the new shaft and impeller compared to the original. The second is a test fit of the new setup in the housing. The final picture is of a test installation on the engine, confirming that the new shaft engaged with the original drive system. 

 

I have some more work to do in getting the crud out of the cooling system, but I think this will be an improvement over what was originally there. Whether it is a permanent solution will be determined as things progress.

 

Many thanks to Greg and everyone who got me down the road of getting my car back up and running again!

 

Thanks for reading,

 

Rusty

[keninman]

Is the Evenrude impeller rubber, that is what I am most experienced seeing. Also  I would think that filling the deep pitting in the housing would be necessary to provide a good enough side seal to pump much water. Have you had a test with it yet?

[nvonada]

I think that is an excellent solution.  These are not high-efficiency pumps so those pits in the casting will be fine.  I kept a 1973 Johnson outboard running for decades and those impellers do get hard and fail over 10 years or so.  One consideration is that outboards are always pumping cold water.  Running at engine temperature all the time might deteriorate the impeller faster.  

 

Nathan

[37_Roadmaster_C]

Great solution to an old problem (sorry, couldn't resist).  The rubber impellers normally rub on the tips to help seal and improve efficiency. As stated, these pumps were not high efficiency designs.  Your solution is very good. If you know a hobbiest, or professional machinest, the shaft could easily be made with a keyway for the impeller and drive slot.  One thing to watch out for is binding of the impeller. My friends pump would bind if the case gasket was to thin. Also be aware that the drive disk with the cross ribs is a safety part as well as a drive coupling. If the pump binds the drive cross will sheer and save the drive gears and shaft. Just sayin......

Edited August 17, 2017 by 37_Roadmaster_C (see edit history)