R.White Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) I have renewed the 4 clutch plates and the clutch shaft front bearing in the flywheel. I have also replaced (and greased) the throw out bearing and fitted a new clutch shaft bushing. I have smoothed off the wear grooves in the flywheel pins and lightly greased them to allow the plates to move freely but despite this, the clutch plates are still not freeing off properly... but worse is the dreadful clatter that now comes when the pedal is depressed with the engine running.! I did remember to replace the anti rattle springs. I am at a loss to know what is going on. Something seems to be catching and sometimes makes a bang. It sounds like a can of lug nuts being kicked down a cobbled street!! It is not possible to engage first gear with the engine running with out grating. I have to "drag" the clutch plates by carefully feeding the gear in to stop them rotating. On the positive side, the clutch does not slip and is otherwise O.K. it seems. Any ideas? Ray. Edited July 21, 2017 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Since my 32 has a totally different setup, I can do nothing but commensurate with you on this annoying problem. I'm sure other folks with cars of your era will join in very soon with a workable solution.. Nothing is more frustrating than replacing/rebuilding something on our cars and then running into major difficulties just when you thought everything was solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30dodge35 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 R.White you have pictures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) Thanks for your support, Tailor-made. I was hoping that there was too much pedal throw which would send the new plates too far out because of the extra thickness of new clutch material. That would be an easy fix/adjustment but I don't think it's that because the clatter shows up just as soon as the throw out bearing makes contact. You can tell when that is happening because it changes tone and the usual hum disappears. I don't know if these photos are in any way helpful? They were taken during disassembly. The new plates are perfectly clean ( the old ones were not gummed up either) but they are still dragging. My biggest worry, however, is the terrible clatter that was not there before!!... The throw out bearing "arms" look close to the pins. I don't remember anything left over from the rebuild but I am obviously going to have to tear it all down again. Getting to the clutch on these cars is pretty involved. Edited July 21, 2017 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayG Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Ray - Nothing obvious. The only thing I see different from my pics is the center clutch spring on mine seems to be adjusted in more than yours. Are the anti rattle springs installed in the right direction? Here are some pics of mine when I took it apart. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) As I say; these photos were taken during dismantling so probably of little value. I may not have thought about the way the anti rattle should be fitted so I have probably got it wrong. I expect they have come off. I realise they need to be pulled by the pins in the direction of rotation. At least that is a good place to start. How can I put this? Well, every village has got one. Ray. Edited July 22, 2017 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 I have now had chance to remove the inspection cover take a closer look. The anti rattle springs are still in situ and correctly fitted. The clatter is not them. It sounds like something on the throw out bearing is loose and catching the pressure plate. There is definitely something seriously wrong so it will all have to come out again. Oh bother! Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Is there supposed to be some kind of collar/spacer between the throwout bearing collar and the clutches to keep it away from those alignment pins? I am not familiar with them....just asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 I was wondering about that. I have looked at the workshop manual which has an exploded picture of this clutch but there is no mention of a seperate spacer and there is not really clear enough detail to be certain of anything. The noise has of course only appeared since I fitted the new clutch plates; that involved compressing the enclosed spring with a special tool (which I made from a short length of thick wall 2" tubing with cut outs) and lifting out the split rings to enable the spring to be removed. Re assembly was simply a reversal of the process. Interestingly, the whole assembly has always had a certain amount of fore and aft movement before the throwout bearing takes effect which seems a bit odd. The clutch plates are now moving freely but the clatter persists so I will have to get the gearbox out again to see what is wrong. For anyone who has not done this it involves raising the rear of the car and supporting the chassis on substantial axle stands. The front seat and it's support and the floor come out so the battery and it's box can be removed. The rear brake rods are then disconnected; the throttle pedal disconnected and the exhaust removed. The rear springs are dropped down and the axle can be freed and moved back to enable the torque tube to be separated from the u/j on the back of the gearbox. The engine needs to be supported and the rear engine support cradle can then be unbolted from the chassis and when all the bell housing nuts and bolts have been removed the assembly can be pulled back from the engine using the chassis rails as supports until access to the clutch can be made. The clutch itself is only pushed over six pins on the flywheel and rotates via a pilot bearing... Shouldn't grumble. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 A friend in town here has a 1926 coupe and went through that whole process a while back. When I visited his home, I saw the whole rear end out and wondered why. Apparently, the previous owner also had the rear springs in backwards as the wheels were not centered in the fender arch. Not quite sure how the previous owner even did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 The easiest mistake you can make with the rear springs is to fail to get the clamp properly located. What would seem like a simple peg in a hole set up can be quite a struggle at times but if it isn't done right it won't be secure. Getting the springs the right way round would seem pretty obvious one would think. I imagine there would also be problems with the prop shaft. Thanks for your interest. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 23, 2017 Author Share Posted July 23, 2017 I have removed the gearbox top to get a better look. There is still nothing obvious with a powerful flash light but I did discover something. With the clutch pedal held down and the gearbox in neutral I can easily rotate the pressure plate by hand. It is easier to do this by rocking the gear next to the front bearing. By doing this I can replicate in slow motion the noise. It is a metallic sound suggesting something has come loose. I will of course be faced with the problem of recreating the noise when I take the clutch out of the car but I am coming to the realisation that what I may find is a broken spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Jones Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 I realize my car is a chevy and also a 1933. But I had a very bad rattle coming from my clutch. After removing the transmission and clutch I determined it was the fork ball support and the clutch fork that was causing the rattle. It was a good thing I did remove it all though as I ended up needing a new pilot bearing also. Good luck with your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 25, 2017 Author Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) The '26 Dodge Brothers clutch is different from anything I have encountered. The problem is not anything to do with the throw out bearing or mechanism. I have just renewed or restored this lot so having to tear it all down again is pretty disheartening. I'm not there yet but my money is on a broken clutch main spring which is concealed within the body of the clutch and held 'in situ' by two half rings; like large split collets. I have made a tool for removing these from a short length of thick walled 2" dia. tubing with slots cut out of one end. Using my hydraulic press I can remove the rings and the spring. I will post some more photos as things become clearer. Ray. Edited July 25, 2017 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Ray, How many springs do you have in the clutch? Could one be weaker than the others (or broken, as you believe)? If you take them all out, maybe you can test the compression tension of each spring to see if they are all the same, or at least close. Maybe a weak spring is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 25, 2017 Author Share Posted July 25, 2017 I have now stripped the clutch and found the problem. The spring is fine. Nothing is broken. There are four clutch plates mounted on six pins attached to the flywheel with four corresponding driven plates, mounted on three separate pins, which are allowed to rotate independently when the clutch pedal is depressed. I had previously assembled all these clutch plates and somehow one of the plain driven plates was not properly located on the pins. When compressed in use, the clutch plates all operated normally but when the pressure was transferred to the throw out bearing this loose plate was rattling against the pins on which it should have been located. This was a stupid mistake but in my defence at the time I was struggling with poor eyesight. I now wear glasses. All I have to do now is put everything back together again. I don't know about glasses; I could probably do it with my eyes shut!! Thanks to everyone. Ray. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayG Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Ray - I'm glad you found the problem and that it turned out to be something simple (not taking into account the effort to get at it). I hope you get your car back on the road soon. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 It's good to see someone else who has to do everything twice - make me feel human. The pain in this process is that knowledge is gained the hard way and the knowledge probably won't get used again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lawson Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Gee Ray, Don't be too hard on yourself I leave my brain under the pillow sometimes and I can be down the workshop and think "Why did I do that like this " Guess it has something like doing it twice just for the practice Cheers mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 3 hours ago, TonyAus said: It's good to see someone else who has to do everything twice - make me feel human. The pain in this process is that knowledge is gained the hard way and the knowledge probably won't get used again. Only twice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Man,........you nor Mpgp1999 can get a break....... Between you and Matthew I think the two of you will be THE foremost DB transmission authorities on these forums....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 All your support and encouragement is most gratefully received, guys. This HAS to be the best old car forum on the net! Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 It is well known you have to do it more than once. The first time you get it wrong so you have to do it again, the right way. Hopefully you do it right more than once so you rehearse the right way. Otherwise you will only remember the wrong way! Don't be hard on yourself Ray. I might have cost me a new radiator by my inattention, procrastination, lack of patience and plain bungling. Now that will be a huge expense. Already my wife is placing orders for what she wants if I have to spend that huge amount, sort of retaliation. The glass house she got last year doesn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Glad for the fix! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 Hey Spinneyhill. MY wife must be cut from the same cloth as yours!! Whenever I want to spend any substantial amount on the car, she orders a new pair of Jimmy Choos! Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 I'm sure we all appreciate your willingness to share the nitty-gritty details of symptoms/diagnosis/repair so that just maybe one of us might avoid doing it twice. Getting the gearbox out sounds like a big job! I can't imagine having to remove the 10 ton flywheel from under the car though. Was that necessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Uh oh. She says she doesn't have any Jimmy Choos....... yet! Good to hear that problem is fixed with only a bit of work and no expense. It sounds like your engine is running and you are nearly ready to show us the road test. Xclnt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 A good 'burn out' will test to see how well you have fixed that clutch...:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 YUP.......won't be long till you can tell us what kind of crash box it is....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 27, 2017 Author Share Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, MikeC5 said: I'm sure we all appreciate your willingness to share the nitty-gritty details of symptoms/diagnosis/repair so that just maybe one of us might avoid doing it twice. Getting the gearbox out sounds like a big job! I can't imagine having to remove the 10 ton flywheel from under the car though. Was that necessary? Hi Mike. No the gearbox stays on the engine. The gearbox is back in and all buttoned up to the engine now. Of course this has all happened at my busiest time with the cattery so finding the time is my biggest problem. Once the torque tube/ prop shaft is out of the way; the battery box and the exhaust removed you can disconnect the clutch pedal, remove the supports and lift out the throw out bearing operating fork. When you pull the gearbox off the engine, sometimes the clutch is left in situ on the flywheel or it might come off the pins and stay attached to the 'box. Either way, not a problem. The large rear engine/transmission support is a kind of yoke; sandwiched between the the two and bolted each side through the chassis rails. Along with all the perimeter nuts and bolts, these two large bolts also come out. The engine must be supported at the back but when you pull the gearbox off you need to support that too or it will either flip over backwards or rotate sideways. I found a bar straddling the chassis rails is helpful. The gearbox/yoke assembly can then be pulled back using the chassis rails for support. You have to keep a watch on the supports because the chassis rails gradually splay further apart but It is possible to pull the gearbox back far enough to get to the clutch without dropping the 'box down. There are a number of jobs on this car that an experience person will know about that saves doing the job twice. One of the areas on any car subject to a lot of wear are the pedals' especially the shaft.. On this car it is not possible to remove the shaft without taking out the gearbox so it is important to fit the replacment shaft into it's support bracket before installing the gearbox or you will find that there is not quite enough clearance between the chassis rail and the bracket to fit the shaft. This can be annoying. Another thing to remember is with the engine. Whilst it may seem logical to refit the pan while the engine is upside down on the stand and care can be taken to ensure the felt seals are a good fit, this is not possible because the flywheel cannot be reattached with the pan fitted. Frustratingly, there is not quite enough room to fit the bolts and it would not be wise to put them in the other way round. Knowledge of this fact can save having to remove the pan, fit the flywheel and then refit the pan. The cooling fan cannot be removed with the radiator in situ ...ergo the fan needs to be fitted before the radiator. The cylinder head cannot be removed without first removing the fan. The radiator can't be removed without lifting off the hood... etc. etc. Most importantly, the starter motor switch on a '26 six volt car is dangerously close to the clutch throwout bearing grease tube under the toe board and is not easily accessible This tube has an armoured outer casing which if it should accidentally come into contact with the (permanently live) switch will short out and cause a fire. The inner part of the grease tube melts and easily burns. If this happens you soon find out how quickly you can disconnect the battery!!! I hope some of this is of help. Ray. Edited July 27, 2017 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Those are a some very valuable tips Ray. I'm going to file them away for future reference! I'm glad you got everything back together so quickly. I look forward to read your report on driving the refurbished gal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) Just one or two other little things to note (if I may) is that when refitting the two throwout bearing supports and retaining screws, I suggest taking extra care just in case a bracket or screw slips down into the bell housing. I tied a length of thin cord to the bracket while fitting these fiddly things. Having to try and fish it out with a magnet of grabber is not ideal and taking everything apart again - while not a disaster - would be most frustrating. Something which I hadn't thought about is when you pull the torque tube out of the u/j it will angle down to the floor. i don't know for sure but I suspect the rear axle had been slightly overfilled because oil ran out of the tube onto the floor. Fortunately, there was not too much and it went onto a sacrificial 8'x 4' sheet of hard board which I use because I don't have a tiled floor. I supported the tube on an axle stand and it makes a handy step for me when getting in and out of the car. (Poor old chap) Ray. Edited July 28, 2017 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Kitty Litter is good stuff for soaking up oil spills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said: Kitty Litter is good stuff for soaking up oil spills. It was only a small spill so I cleaned it up with an old micro fibre cloth that was only fit for the bin anyway but I know what you mean about kitty litter. My neighbour, a fellow vintage car enthusiast bought an entire bag from me (I buy it in bulk) because his 12/60 Alvis had emptied itself all over his garage floor...don't ask! Incidentally, I owe my living to the inventor of "Kitty Litter" ; an American by the name of Ed Lowe who marketed the product first in 1947. This in turn made the keeping of domestic cats far more popular world wide. I have been doing this for 18 years now and can board up to 50 cats at any one time. Beats working for a living I suppose! Ray. Edited July 28, 2017 by R.White (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 It must be mayhem when you take them all for a walk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 One of the possible ingredients in Kitty Litter, Bentonite, is also used in Geotechnical Engineering as a water barrier. When it absorbs water, it swells to several times its dry volume. If it is constrained in space it can expand into, it makes a very tight, low permeability layer. Wonderful stuff. Damned hard on the skin though, if you handle it without gloves. Sucks the moisture right out of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 I learn something new every day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 These days I am more selective with materials handling and now use a cellulose based bio degradable product that doesn't track so much. The modern high tech stuff also has the ability to absorb unpleasant smells - so no more pong, thank you. Yes, I know there are cheaper options but this is a top flight operation relying entirely on word of mouth recommendation; besides, the little paper pellets are also much lighter which as we get older is a consideration. ...and as we have discussed it is handy to have around the garage. Going off on another tangent. My neighbour with the Alvis (and a bunch of other fine cars) has just be round and tells me he has had a heart attack! This is why I haven't seen him for the past three weeks! We have been great mates for many years - I would have hoped he might have let me know before but there it is. He suggested I write a book about the '26 Dodge Brothers refurb as it seems there is not a single part that hasn't needed attention and could be of interest to others. I don't know about that. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted July 30, 2017 Share Posted July 30, 2017 Not sure which would be harder - dealing with your Dodge or herding cats. Looks like you've mastered both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.White Posted July 30, 2017 Author Share Posted July 30, 2017 I'm not sure about that, Tony but thanks for the compliment. Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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