Looky What I Found Now!

[George Smolinski]

Found this while surfing. Owner said he will sell in 2 weeks to highest offer. Has four $10000 offers. It's missing the aircleaner & passenger side wiper arm. He also has the fender mount spares & all the hardware for them. I think these things had turn signals or running lights on top of the front fenders & I don't see it in the photo. AND.......he has the title. Is it worth more than the $10K & if so, how much?

[trimacar]

1933 Studebaker President, unless it's a Model 82, Full Classic...looks extremely sound, beautiful cars....interior condition important, if it's a rat's nest maybe not worth as much, but I'd go more than 10K if I were you...great cars......things missing are minor in the grand scheme of things....I'd think it's worth 15K minimum if interior isn't awful and the engine isn't frozen....I'd bet retail on a restored one is in the 30 to 40K range, and from the looks of this one, I'm not sure I'd go for a full restoration, get running and enjoy...then again, you have to LOVE it, and not look at it as an investment...could you get it running and have fun with it?  Pride of ownership? THAT'S the question...

[keiser31]

NICE car!

[Walt G]

I am in complete agreement with everything David Coco has to say. Great car no matter what model, but if it is the President model then it is a full classic according to CCCA classifications. Tremendous cars. And yes condition of interior is important.

[Paul Dobbin]

It would make an awesome Resto-Mod.  Where do we bid?  (To save it, of course)

[Rusty_OToole]

How far away is it? I wouldn't bid on a car that expensive without seeing it. I would want to talk to the owner, make friends if possible. There is a good chance none of the other offers are real. Time will tell if they show up with the money I would be surprised.

 

To any of you guys who have sold an old car recently. How likely do you think it is, that 4 buyers will show up with $10,000 cash for that car? Personally I think the seller is full of it but who knows.

 

Later...... Just realized that is the last President with the big 337 straight eight. No wonder it's a full classic. Yes a very desirable car. But, i still have my doubts about the 4 guys waving checks. There may have been 4 people who expressed interest but when it comes time to put up the money they have a way of disappearing. However, if you want it, I don't blame you for shelling out. But I would still want to see it first.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Mark Huston]

If this car is a Commander is is not worth $10,000.   If a President, yes, IF it runs and does not require major engine repair.  

[Joe Cocuzza]

3 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

Found this while surfing. Owner said he will sell in 2 weeks to highest offer. Has four $10000 offers. It's missing the aircleaner & passenger side wiper arm. He also has the fender mount spares & all the hardware for them. I think these things had turn signals or running lights on top of the front fenders & I don't see it in the photo. AND.......he has the title. Is it worth more than the $10K & if so, how much?

George,

What method of surfing do you use to find these cars?

[nzcarnerd]

I thought the grille looked odd and did a quick search. There is no doubt it is a Commander - 36 hood louvres. The President has more than 40.  Found this one which looks a bargain by comparison  -  http://topclassiccarsforsale.com/studebaker/79144-1933-studebaker-commander-sedan-excellent-restoration.html

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by nzcarnerd (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

President for comparison - count those louvres. 

[nzcarnerd]

President 82 St Regis - many thanks to whoever saved these photos, which have great detail. 

[trimacar]

If a Commander then no, not worth the money..and I take back my Full Classic comments!  ..the picture of the St. Regis appears to show steel wheels in the form of the earlier wood spoke wheels, the subject of another discussion on this forum....

[PlymouthPE]

Interesting that in post #9 the car is advertised in both Dallas and Chicago. Hmmmm!!

[Rusty_OToole]

Definitely the restored one is a better buy for only $4100 more.

[Guest BillP]

That President in the first factory photo is a very handsome car. Where were they priced compared to a similarly sized Packard or Cadillac?

[Rusty_OToole]

1 hour ago, BillP said:

That President in the first factory photo is a very handsome car. Where were they priced compared to a similarly sized Packard or Cadillac?

You would think they would have to be. The engine and chassis were the basis of the Pierce Arrow straight eight, suitably improved and modified.

[SC38dls]

Isn't the restored one an auction? If so is the price of $14,100 a "buy now" or the last bid? 

[Rusty_OToole]

One site gives the original MSRP for a Model 92 5 passenger sedan as $1685  or the 5 pass State sedan for $1790.

[George Smolinski]

17 hours ago, Mark Huston said:

If this car is a Commander is is not worth $10,000.   If a President, yes, IF it runs and does not require major engine repair.  

I'll give him his 2 weeks & make an offer somewhere below $10,000.

[nzcarnerd]

Sunday morning and having another look at this one. My sources here are The Standard Catalog (1982 edition) and the Crestline book Studebaker cars. Another thing which might go against this car is that for 1933 the Commander and Dictator were the same size car. The Dictator had an 85 hp 230 cid six and the Commander a 100 hp 235 cid eight, a variant of the eight cylinder engine that was only used that year. Studebaker had a complex range of cars which was constantly changing, with regular and Deluxe version of every model. Like others I guess they were just trying to maintain sales. The big Speedway President range that year sold only 635 cars, hence why they are sought after. 

 

Even the Commander sedan here  would never have been common with total Commander sales at just 3,841 of a range of 12 models, six body styles in two versions each. For the same money you could have brought a Dodge Eight or a Series 50 Buick.

 

I think like restoration of any lower price car it would have to be a labour of love - maybe for some sort of sentimental reasons. A pity really as it is a great looking car - something of a head turner when done.

 

Those oval headlight were used for three years, 1931 to 1933, as far as I know, although maybe with some differences in the mounts(?). I have a pair which are the only remaining parts of a 1931 sedan that was wrecked here in NZ many years ago.

Edited July 15, 2017 by nzcarnerd (see edit history)

[Grimy]

6 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

The engine and chassis were the basis of the Pierce Arrow straight eight, suitably improved and modified.

No, Sir.  The Pierce-Arrow straight 8, new for 1929, had NINE main bearings; the Stude 8 thru 1930 (at least) had FIVE.  The cylinder heads will interchange, true.  Stude acquired Pierce in the summer of 1928, yet the Pierce 1929 8 was on the market in December of that year.  Pierce blocks were aged for one year before machining, so 1929 8-cyl blocks were date coded from late-1927.  It is likely that some coordination occurred before the merger..

 

Bill Cannon, a Studebaker guy to the core, addressed this fully ca. 1982 in Skinned Knuckles, his magazine.

[nzcarnerd]

15 minutes ago, Grimy said:

No, Sir.  The Pierce-Arrow straight 8, new for 1929, had NINE main bearings; the Stude 8 thru 1930 (at least) had FIVE.  The cylinder heads will interchange, true.  Stude acquired Pierce in the summer of 1928, yet the Pierce 1929 8 was on the market in December of that year.  Pierce blocks were aged for one year before machining, so 1929 8-cyl blocks were date coded from late-1927.  It is likely that some coordination occurred before the merger..

 

Bill Cannon, a Studebaker guy to the core, addressed this fully ca. 1982 in Skinned Knuckles, his magazine.

From what I have seen you are right. This subject has been argued before. I would like to read that article you mentioned.   One small point is that the big Stude President engine from 1930 through to '33 had nine main bearings. Even the small 8 used in the Dictator and Commander, and which continued to be used in the later, lesser, President right through to 1942, had nine mains. Only the short lived FA President 8 had five.

[Rusty_OToole]

I have the Cannon article on file. I also have Maurice Hendry's book which he quotes.

 

The Pierce was also 366 cu in vs 337 for the Studebaker thanks to a longer stroke crankshaft. The Pierce block, head, manifold etc castings were made in the Studebaker foundries but on different days from Studebaker's, using different molds and different metal formulas or alloys. Pierce had the added refinement of an oil heater/cooler that used the engine coolant to quickly warm up the oil when the engine was cold, and to keep it below 200 degrees when hot. This improved lubrication, reduced wear, and allowed them to use the same grade of oil over a wide range of temperatures.

 

The Cannon article gives a long list of parts that interchange between Studebaker and Pierce including engine parts, front axle, rear axle, and brakes.

 

I don't think this takes away from Pierce at all, and is a compliment to Studebaker. Pierce has a well earned reputation as a luxury car. The straight eight models did not detract from this in the least. The straight eights were made in the Pierce factory to Pierce standards. If they shared some engineering with other models, well so did Packard, Cadillac and many other makes. Indeed some makes like Peerless bought engines, transmissions, chassis, etc from outside suppliers and were basically assembled cars.

 

I find such details interesting. There are many ways to get at the same end result, such as building a luxury car. I think Pierce used good sense to make the most of their resources. If sharing with Studebaker was the best way to get a modern straight eight at an affordable price, it may well have kept the company alive for an extra 10 years. I don't see how their old dual valve six could have gone on any longer, when Chevrolet was bringing out a six, many medium priced cars had eights, and other luxury car makers were talking about 12 and even 16 cylinders, or overhead cam straight eights like Duesenberg and Stutz. The new eight sold far better than any model they had before, indeed I believe 1929 or 1930 was the best year for sales they ever had.

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

 

"From what I have seen you are right. This subject has been argued before. I would like to read that article you mentioned.   One small point is that the big Stude President engine from 1930 through to '33 had nine main bearings. Even the small 8 used in the Dictator and Commander, and which continued to be used in the later, lesser, President right through to 1942, had nine mains. Only the short lived FA President 8 had five."

 

 

•  

Here is the Cannon article

 

 

Pierce Arrow and Studebaker engines ASC Review 1983.pdf

Edited July 15, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Grimy]

I agree with Rusty except for one detail:  the Oil Temperature regulator (AKA oil coller) first appeared on Pierces for 1933, both 8s and 12s, necessitated by the introduction that year of true hydraulic lifters (vs. Cad V-16 hydraulic silencers).  However, other cars without hydraulic lifters used the OTR to good effect in those pre-multi-grade-oil days:  My 1934 Buick 50, on which I learned to drive 60 years ago, had one as well.

 

Thanks for posting the Cannon article, Rusty.

[nzcarnerd]

23 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

 

"From what I have seen you are right. This subject has been argued before. I would like to read that article you mentioned.   One small point is that the big Stude President engine from 1930 through to '33 had nine main bearings. Even the small 8 used in the Dictator and Commander, and which continued to be used in the later, lesser, President right through to 1942, had nine mains. Only the short lived FA President 8 had five."

 

 

•  

Here is the Cannon article

 

 

Pierce Arrow and Studebaker engines ASC Review 1983.pdf

Thanks for that.

[Rusty_OToole]

You are welcome. There is much food for thought there, especially the list of interchangeable parts at the end. I don't see how it is possible for so many parts to be the same, including cylinder head bolt pattern, without a common origin. But note they say the heads do not interchange because they differ in design, but can be modified to fit. This argues that the Pierce Arrow was a different engine, refined by Pierce engineers, but based on the President eight.

 

For example the Studebaker was a 5 main bearing design. Pierce was a 9 bearing. This change required a completely different block casting and crankshaft forging and other parts as well. Then a year or 2 later, Studebaker adopted the 9 bearing crankshaft. To me this argues that the Pierce was a different design while the head bolt pattern etc argues a common origin.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

1 minute ago, Rusty_OToole said:

You are welcome. There is much food for thought there, especially the list of interchangeable parts at the end. I don't see how it is possible for so many parts to be the same, including cylinder head bolt pattern, without a common origin. But note they say the heads do not interchange because they differ in design, but can be modified to fit. This argues that the Pierce Arrow was a different engine, refined by Pierce engineers, but based on the President eight.

I don't think we have any of the Pierce Arrow 8s in NZ but it would be interesting to see the two engines disassembled side by side. I know there was a 33 P-A  that went through the local restoration shop many years ago but whether anyone who worked on it is still there I don't know. I think the car went to Japan. I have a photo of it somewhere. There are several of the big Presidents here. I am not sure what has happened to the '33 Speedway since it was sold a few years ago. This pic was taken in 1980.

[Rusty_OToole]

There is another angle on this. As best I can determine the best sales year for Studebaker President was 1930 with about 15,000 sold. Pierce Arrow's best year was 1929 with 10,000 sold. Was it possible to make a profit on this number of cars given the cost of development? I believe Packard and Cadillac were selling 50,000 to 100,000 units per year. It seems logical that by cooperating Pierce and Studebaker could both improve their products and cut unit costs without cutting quality. This is the sort of common sense that engineers and capitalists are supposed to excel at. There must have been some reason to merge Pierce and Studebaker. Of course at the time they had no way of knowing the Depression would decimate both companies.

 

They said at the time that the Pierce Studebaker merger made them the fourth biggest car company in the world after GM, Ford and Chrysler.

[nzcarnerd]

22 minutes ago, mike6024 said:

Just for the record, I counted 37 louvres on the hood of the subject Commander.

 

 

Not only that, but when I counted again I got yet a different number. The number of louvres seems to keep changing.

 

Yes, counting louvres is never easy, Suffice to say that the President has lots more than the Commander.

[nzcarnerd]

1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said:

There is another angle on this. As best I can determine the best sales year for Studebaker President was 1930 with about 15,000 sold. Pierce Arrow's best year was 1929 with 10,000 sold. Was it possible to make a profit on this number of cars given the cost of development? I believe Packard and Cadillac were selling 50,000 to 100,000 units per year. It seems logical that by cooperating Pierce and Studebaker could both improve their products and cut unit costs without cutting quality. This is the sort of common sense that engineers and capitalists are supposed to excel at. There must have been some reason to merge Pierce and Studebaker. Of course at the time they had no way of knowing the Depression would decimate both companies.

 

They said at the time that the Pierce Studebaker merger made them the fourth biggest car company in the world after GM, Ford and Chrysler.

From The Standard Catalog; for 1930 Cadillac sold 15,000 V8 and about 3,000 V16s.  Packard sold nearly 30,000 Standard eights and nearly 8,000 big eights. Remember though that Cadillac prices started about $3500, Standard Packards were under $3,000 and the big ones started around the same money as Cadillacs. Using that as a basis Cadillac outsold Packard that year in their price bracket. The Stude President FH/FE series production ran from December '28 to June '30 and the sales total figure was about 26,000 and less than 9,000 of that was the big 135" wheelbase FE, but even the most expensive State limo was under $3,000, and the cheapest roadster FH $1795. Going from all that the Stude President FE competed with the Standard Packard and the Cadillac competed with the big Packard.

[ols car dog]

Just to add a little info 

My 1930 President has 5 main bearings.From what I gather the 9main bearing engines started in1931

As I remember there app.17000 FH&8000 FE Pres. Made in 1930

The 9 main bearing cranks were from a Liberty aircraft engine.App 1800 was the price of the FH

 

ken

[nzcarnerd]

37 minutes ago, ols car dog said:

Just to add a little info 

My 1930 President has 5 main bearings.From what I gather the 9main bearing engines started in1931

As I remember there app.17000 FH&8000 FE Pres. Made in 1930

The 9 main bearing cranks were from a Liberty aircraft engine.App 1800 was the price of the FH

 

ken

Yes just rechecked the specs and you are right, it was new 80/90 President 8 that got 9 bearings. So only 9,000 of them for '31, 2400 for '32 and 635 for '33.  Not as many as I first thought. I wonder what the casting date was of the last one. Just curious to know if the 1933 cars used left over engines.  Did those engines get used for any industrial purpose?

[Rusty_OToole]

Studebaker did offer a hopped up straight eight in the early thirties, patterned after their Indianapolis race cars. It was very expensive at $750 but boasted multiple carburetors and other improvements. I don't know if it was based on the big straight eight or the smaller one.

[Buffalowed Bill]

No, Sir.  The Pierce-Arrow straight 8, new for 1929, had NINE main bearings; the Stude 8 thru 1930 (at least) had FIVE.  The cylinder heads will interchange, true.  Stude acquired Pierce in the summer of 1928, yet the Pierce 1929 8 was on the market in December of that year.  Pierce blocks were aged for one year before machining, so 1929 8-cyl blocks were date coded from late-1927.  It is likely that some coordination occurred before the merger..

 

Bill Cannon, a Studebaker guy to the core, addressed this fully ca. 1982 in Skinned Knuckles, his magazine.

0 Like this

 

 

I humbly disagree with Grimmy. As a long time Studebaker and Pierce Arrow owner I have a working knowledge of both. To understand the kinship you have to see, and work on the two simultaneously. There is so much that I have learned over the last forty some years that I could write a chapter on the subject. I should stress that these things are not my conclusions alone, but verified by others.

 

There was never been any archival verification found that PA ever had a straight eight engine in it's plans during the 20's. This was verified by employees that worked in the engineering area, and would surely have known if there had been in the planning stage.

 

In 1926 Barney Roos was hired at Studebaker as head of engineering. He had previously been responsible for the development of straight eights at Locomobile and at another company, whose name escapes me at present. He was an engine man who was mandated with producing the new generation of engines at Studebaker. His engine team included Karl Wise, who was later credited for the development of the Pierce V12, some years later. I might add that Wise always worked in South Bend, and has patents credited to him, at Studebaker, as late as the mid 30's. PA people looking for an early connection need look no farther then the fact the Roos was assistant to Mc Farland(chief engineer) at Pierce until 1919, and who had a great influence on the design of the duel valve six that was destined to carry the company through the 20's.

 

Studebaker purchased PA in 1928. Six months later when the two companies came out with their new lines, the two cars looked a great deal alike. As a friend, who is a PA owner, professional restorer and who helped me restore my 80R, indicated that it was not difficult to see where they both came from. In 1928 the two companies had been producing two very different cars, six months later the new offerings had an unmistakable similarity to one of the 1928's marques, but had no relationship to that of the other. An impossible timeline, unless one became the basis for the other.

 

As for the  straight engine I will refer those interested to the PA club publication article, under "Straight Eight Engines":

http://www.pierce-arrow.org/features/feature12/index.php

 

 

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•  

[pont35cpe]

On 7/15/2017 at 6:56 AM, PlymouthPE said:

Interesting that in post #9 the car is advertised in both Dallas and Chicago. Hmmmm!!

Couple years ago I bought a `36 Buick grille listed in Seattle`s Craigs List, seller was in Los Angeles area..

[studerex]

Bill

I just happened on this topic.  I viewed the Pierce article you listed years ago.I advised the writer of his error on the casting date referenced.  The I is for 1929 not 28.   July 9 1929.  All 8 cylinder blocks were cast in Studebakers foundry.  Studebaker was using the eight for the model year 1928 as 5 main but changed to 9 main starting in June of 1930.  The foundry cast dating started in 1921 with A.  The president 8 was in production when Studebaker acquired Pierce.  The blocks look the same and will interchange as a whole.  Studebaker eights changed almost every year from 28 to 33.  28 had the water pump in front of the block, 29-30 were mostly the same, 31 was a cast crank, 32 was a machined crank with bolt on counter weights, and 33 block exterior changed and looked similar to pierce.  I bought a Pierce motor once just to dismantle it to see the differences.   Yes there are many differences.  But I would say the same group of engineers designed both motors. 

[60FlatTop]

On 7/15/2017 at 3:05 PM, George Smolinski said:

I'll give him his 2 weeks & make an offer somewhere below $10,000.

 

That would be the kind of comment I would make about a car I really didn't care about. If money is the driver wait until you find a car you are excited about.

 

Buy it, tie up ten grand in the ho hum car, and you can be guaranteed the blow your socks off car will suddenly appear.

Bernie

[Buffalowed Bill]

Rex, 

 

Where were you a year ago? Do you know what happened to the car, and do you know if it was a model 82 or 73?-Bill

[Joe in Canada]

Last year went and seen a car advertised the same way. It was not really for sale but was going to be sold to a family member at the highest bid to settle an estate.