1924 db 4 passenger coupe paint

[Guest]

i need help with original paint scheme for 4 passenger coupe. the sales lit says hood, grill shell and fenders were black with blue body. pictures seem to show the cowl was black? wheels are supposed to be disc. all? and are they blue or black? were 4 pass. coupes only made in 24? anyone knowing thewhereabouts of one please contact me at daw1@comcast.net

[Guest leadfoot]

The two photo reproductions I have for the '24 four passenger coupe show the typical blue body with black fenders and splash aprons. Made as a Standard and Special Series, the Budd-Michelin wheels probably were black. Kelsey wood wheels typically were Kelsey Blue (very dark blue).<P>The radiator on the Standard was pained black and the Special had a nickle plated radiator. In these early years, DB shipped cars with a spare rear mounted wheel without the tire, which was an added cost option. It appears that Specials were shipped with five tires including the spare.

[Guest]

thanks leadfoot i think i've seen the brochure you are refering to. i've wondered what good they thought a spare wheel would be without a tire. is the area around the windows black, from the beltline up? i just found out the other day the roof panel that the back window is in is aluminum. are other coupes the same? as you know this body was made by fisher, not really accepted by some of you ALLSTEEL db'ers. in reading every db club newsletter i only ever saw one 24 4 pass. coupe for sale. i've been in contact with two others. anybody know of any others?

[Guest leadfoot]

I guess I misspoke slightly yesterday. DB's practice was to ship cars with a spare rim, not a wheel. The only rational I can think of for no true spare is twofold - 1. I don't think Ford (the market leader) shipped cars with a fifth roadable spare wheel, and 2. DB was just as cost conscious as Ford. After all the boys did learn some things from Henry. The 1924 Special Series four passenger came equipped with a rim and tire on the back, but no fifth wheel.<P>Be aware that up to mid 1922 all DB closed cars were wood framed and I believe that they were Budd bodied. The open cars were Budd all-steel bodied. I've got one of these jewels.<P>For the 1923 high hood models - running from August '22 - DB offered two sedans A & B. The all-steel B version had a leather interior, the wood framed A version came with the usual plush mohair interior. It doesn't look like the two passenger coupes, which also became all-steel, had a wood framed companion. One of the minor reasons for the all-steel move - it allowed DB to drop blue varnish and use black enamel on closed cars. This speeded up production. <P>In the 1923 models, DB had a custom built four passenger coupe with a body produced by Lang with suicide doors. The 1924 four passenger coupe is a slightly different and the body origin is unclear, but is not Lang. My guess is that these 1924 cars were wood bodied and low production. If the 1924 four passenger you have is steel framed it probably would be all black; if wood framed it probably would be blue.<P>For the rest of your questions, I want to look up a couple of things tonight and will get back to you.

[Guest]

thanks. i should have been more clear. my car is a wood framed body , by fisher. the main body has been marroon for a long time but i don't think it's the original color.in the aaca library they have several original pieces of literature. unfortunately their all black and white, or actually black and yellow.the largest piece that unfolds into about 12 by 19 shows the most detail. shows rim on back with no tire. there is a view of car with door open that seems to show the door jam in the same shade as the main body. and the frames around windows look black. takes a good imagination to see. by the way my car is a standard with painted grillshell. the description also says color was deep blue and black. is this the db blue? aaca also has a small tinted photo of a 4pass.coupe in front of a brick european looking house.it's a special coupe with bumpers but it's either all black or the artist didn't tint it. have lots more questions if you have more answers.

[Guest leadfoot]

This info came from the Feb. 1927 DB Parts Manual, which usually contains some amazing details about DBs.<P>The Four Passenger Coupes were not part of the 1924 models introduced into production in July 1923. 1924 DBs were a substantial change for a company that changed slowly. Wheelbase increased from 114" to 116", hood louvers appeared, balloon tires became standard, car height was reduced - just to name a few changes.<P>Both the standard and Special Series 4 pass. coupes were introduced in Jan. 1924, when all the DB Specials hit the market. For this body type, the Parts Manual references a special supplement for the Fisher Body components and parts. It isn't in my book and may never have been published. Also note that the dual production of wood framed and steel framed DB sedans appears to have ended with the end of the 114" wheel base cars. There was a "Steel A" sedan introduced in July '23. The reason I mention this is that it's possible that the actual assembly of 4 pass. coupes may have been at Fisher. During 1924, these coupes would have been the only wood framed cars in the DB plant specialized in assembling and painting black steel framed cars. DB would not have painted wood cars with the "baked black enamel". <P>Additional 4 pass. coupe model introductions are listed in June and November 1924, both standard and Special. I presume that these were the 1925 models, except I don't know why there was a double introduction. Further mystery is added with the listing of model weights: Standard; 1-24 2809#, 6-24 2793#, 11-24 2813# and Special; 1-24 2929#, 6-24 2932#, 11-24 2901#.

[Guest]

thanks again leadfoot.i've seen referance to 24 and 25 4 pass. coupes in factory literature but in my short experiance never actually heard of a 25. in talking to another db club member, owner of another 4 pass coupe, he thinks there may only be a dozen or so of them left. my car has a metal tag that says body by fisher on the right side of the cowl. so your probably right that fisher assembled the whole thing. did db paint any other body blue before 24? so far every original paint db i've seen has been black before 24. not that i've seen that many. i do like the way they painted the cars in the club's video. how many points would they deduct at a car show now if you'd duplicate that process.null

[Guest leadfoot]

I am guessing that these DB four passenger coupes did not sell well and therefore were a low volume car. I'm basing this on experience with a 1925 Studebaker four pass. coupe that I owned up to the time I acquired my DB. In model years 25-26 Studebaker sold about 2,800 of their coupes, making it their least popular selling model. I had body number 284x, one of the last built. The only other one I could find in a ten year period was in Ohio. Stude's body design was a short coupled coach type body with an external rear trunk rack and removable trunk. From a collector's viewpoint, this was a great looking car.<P>Prior to the 1924 DB models, I remember reading that DB closed cars were painted Dodge Blue, the open cars were always black. I'm not sure when DB started this practice, but it may have been as early as the late teens.

[Guest]

according to the club newsletter the 57 studebaker admiral blue is accepted as db blue. do you know a match for the kelsey blue you refer to for wood wheels? thanks

[Guest leadfoot]

Yes, someplace I have a match for the Kelsey Blue wood spoke wheel color. It's a very dark blue and has been characterized as "midnight blue". Not an ideal accent color for a black car.<P>But be aware that the Budd Michelin steel wheels would not have come from the factory in Kelsey Blue paint. It looks like the steel wheels were a standard option on the Special and were available at extra cost and on the Standard model. There are a lot of restored DBs out there with the steel wheels. All the ones I've seen are black, although some have pin stripes.

[Guest]

the sales lit i copied fromm aaca library says disc wheels were standard.does not say standard on a special or a standard. mine is a standard and it has wood wheels. i found a set of disc wheels that were originally black. i'm not sure i like the disc wheels so i'm just trying to give myself a backup in case they are too ugly.even though my wood wheels are in good shape it still concerns me that they are 80 years old.was scrapeing at loose paint on the lower doors and still can't find evidence of blue paint. everything looks black.as dark as db blue is i guess it could have weathered to look black. am i correct in thinking the lugs for disc wheels were nickled?

[Guest leadfoot]

Would have to look up the description on the lug nuts for the disc wheels. But, my guess is that they are the same as the wood wheel lugs. One clue that possibly disc wheel lugs were different is that there seems to be separate wheel wrench for disc wheels.<P>Wood Wheel hardware (lug nuts and bolts, tire rim, rim retainer blocks and nuts) for 1923, and probably at least through 1925, was cadmium plated. My understanding is that most platers will not handle this plating because of EPA regulations. I know that Eastwood has a spray kit to replicate the cadmium look.<P>The 1924 information I have on wood vs. disc is that disc wheels were an option on the standard 4 pass. coupe but were included as part of the Special Series package. So your car could be correct with either, but a Special would not.<P>If your wood spokes are tight in the felloe and wheel rim and are solid, they should last the rest of your lifetime with proper care.<P>To check the original body paint color, look under any part of the upper body that would not have been removed in a repaint. Like under the door latch striker if it is screwed into the jamb. Of course, it's possible the coupes were all black if assembly was at Fisher.<p>[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: leadfoot ]

[Guest]

so far every place i scratch at loose paint it looks like black. would appreciate a paint no. substitute for blue wood wheels if you have it.but right now i have other problems.car's been running worse and worse lately, wife and i had slow trip to dinner last weekend. so i checked compression and two were dead. the heads were brocken on two exhaust valves. never seen valves that had head pressed onto the stem before. their hands must have been pretty small in 24, it's real crowded inside that little window in the side to disconnect the springs. are the heads of the valves really cast iron like they look?

[Guest leadfoot]

If you have looked in several hidden body areas and all of them come up black, then I would go with the black, although I like the DB blue much better. I will look up the Kelsey Blue in the next couple of days.<P>Sorry to hear about your engine problems. It's real fun working in the valve chamber under the exhaust manifold. It's even more challenging when you are trying to adjust the tappet clearance with the engine hot. Last time I saw the valves (at least five years ago), I thought they were steel and one piece. Couldn't tell if these were replacement valves or the originals, but was able to resurface them after I cleaned up twenty or more years of hard and soft carbon from the combustion chambers. Definitely the pistons are cast iron and look original from underneath.

[Guest leadfoot]

Haven't had a chance to look back through the DB Club magazines, where I think there is a Kelsey Blue paint code. However, retrieved my backup wheel paint can that's from the 1972-75 era. This is supposed to be an accurate match for Kelsey Blue. It's DuPont Delux Enamel code 93-24-3661. I would call this color Midnight Blue, but written on the label is something like Counler Blue, which may be Coolie Blue - really hard to read.