Tires - Brass era

[jankendrick@hotmail.com]

I recently participated in a Brass & Gas tour in Ellisworth, Maine with my 1910 Hudson and 1910 Hupmobile. The tour was wonderful, but I experienced a flat tire on Day 1 of the tour, and the frustrations that ensued were cumulative as we tried to find a way to get the car back on the road. It turns out that the required size for this car is 33x4 clincher, and that size is no longer produced by any known tire manufacturer. During the course of the week, we had many suggestions, but none materialized during the tour, nor has an acceptable solution become evident to date.

Today I spoke at length with another vintage car enthusiast, and we discussed options. We decided that Option #1 is to throw it out to the "Car Guyz" and see what we can get for information and suggestions, and even better, if anyone has any 33x4 clincher tires that they may want to part with.

 

Some of the suggestions so far include:

1. Use a 33x4 "flat side" tire that is produced by both manufacturers, but put a rope in the rounded rim to stabilize the tire on the tube. The seems too much like a "hack job" imo, but I could be convinced if I heard of others who have been successful with this option. Bear in mind that these tires run at 60-75 lbs pressure, and the concept of relying on a rope that was not intended to be used in that spot for the stability, and thus, the safety of the tire use is more than a little intimidating, not to mention the Herculean task of mounting the flat side tire on the rim, since the flat side tire has a steel cable around the rim, and does not give an inch in the mounting process, unlike the more flexible (only slightly) clincher tire rim.

2. Use a 32x3 1/2 clincher. This would work, but would appear undersized, imo.

3. Find a rim adapter. I understand that various rim adapters exist, and that they range in price from anything up to $4k each. Unless one turned up from an unexpected source, it would mean a trip to Hershey in hopes of finding one.

4. Abandon the current wheels and have new ones made with the rim of choice, including a fully demountable rim, which is fairly appealing, since it would make a tire change infinitely easier, but the cost is estimated to be in the $10-12k range, which is prohibitive, although some have already gone that route.

5. Put out an "All Call" to the car world and get a list of people to sign up to purchase a given number of tires if one of the manufacturers would put the molds back into production, even for a single run. 

6. See if one of the larger clubs would take on the task of #5 and contact the car manufacturers on behalf of the members needing the 33x4 clincher tires. This may have the required additional leverage, if they would fill that role.

7. Now your turn. Does anyone have any other suggestions, or want to elaborate with more information about any of the above options? 

 

My car is currently on loan to the Seal Cove Museum, but by next spring I would like to have four new tires on the existing rims and two spares on the running board. Am I just dreaming, or is this possible?

Edited July 10, 2017 by jankendrick@hotmail.com
add information (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I think I would go the new wheels route. I understand it's expensive, but when you sell the car it should be easy to get at least half back on the investment. Experienced collectors tend to stay away from cars you can't get tires for. Plus, most owners will hesitate to drive a car with tires that are difficult to impossible to deal with. Maybe getting several people together to make a run of wells will offset the cost somewhat. The rope thing is something I have heard of in the past, and it seems while it sometimes works fine, many times it doesn't. It's sort of a case by case issue. After forty years in the hobby, I have learned to always fix thing to the best of my ability. I practice what I preach, but often the solution for repair and cost are mutually exclusive problems. In the long run, new wheels are the best bet. 

[wayne sheldon]

Straight-side and clincher tires generally are NOT interchangeable. I gather that your 33X4 clinchers are basically like a 30X3 1/2 model T size clincher, only bigger.

There were wheels/rims back in the day that used removable rings on both the inside and outside of the rim. assembled one way, they took clincher tires. Assembled with the rings facing the other way, straight-side tires were used. These rims varied from companies and years of use in many ways. But some way, they had a mechanism to lock one or both rings onto the rim. Finding a full set to make a set of wheels from could be very tough. And in the appropriate size.

Many clincher wheels had rims similar to the model T, only bigger. Both sides of the rim rolled up and over to clinch the tire bead under high pressure and hold the tire onto the rim. Clincher tires are a slightly loose fit on the rim, and the bead is soft, made to be stretched over the side of the rim. It is the clincher that holds the tire radially onto the rim (Under high pressure).

Straight-side tires are completely different. The bead must sit tightly onto the rim. The bead has to be tough, with a great deal of tensile strength to hold it in place. It has to be very strong, almost ridged, to overcome that same high pressure that holds the clincher by pressing the bead into the clincher rim (and locking it in place), and instead the pressure now tries to blow the tire outward and blow it off the rim (because there is no steel rim clincher to hold the tire down).

Most straight-side tires have steel (rods, wires, or cables) in the bead. It is very unlikely that you could ever stretch a straight-side tire onto a clincher rim. If you had a modern tire shop use one of their machines? Chances are good that either the tire, or the rim, or the tire machine, would be seriously damaged. I have seen the results of such efforts a few times over the years. In one case, it was revealed that a tire shop's machine suffered a couple thousand dollars damage.

A consideration. A few years ago, I needed some "roller" tires for a long-term project car. I bought a couple used tires at a swap meet, and went to mount them on the car's split rims. When I aired up the tire, something looked wrong. It didn't appear to be seated properly in the rim. I let most of the air out, And went to move the car. Then balooey! The tire bead (even with only about 20 psi) had stretched off the split rim and allowed the tube to blow out under the bead. Under pressure, the bead stretched several inches circumference, although it had gone on tight. Once I got the car moved into place, and on a jack, I removed and examined the tire. All the steel wires inside the bead were broken. Clearly, the tire had been forced either on or off a rim before I got it, by a very powerful machine. Oh well. A couple bucks wasted. But if you try to force straight side tires onto a clincher rim? Broken wires like those may be what you trust your life to.

 

These days, I know a lot of horseless carriage era cars have incorrect wheels on them. Most were changed years ago for the very problem you are facing now. Tires are simply not made for about half the sizes and types that were used before 1920. So, people try to get a set of something for which tires are available, and hopefully won't look too bad. Sometimes they fail on how they look.

Your original hubs (or a spare set if you have or can get some would be better), and an appropriate size set of rims for which tires are available, is about all you need before having the wheels made. That and a couple thousand dollars. There are several wheelwrights in the states that do good work on wheels like these. Some charge more than others.

 

Two beautiful cars! I hope you can resolve this problem satisfactorily, and enjoy both of them for many years to come!

[Restorer32]

We faced this same dilemma in the '90s with a 1908 Pullman we restored. 25" clincher tires were apparently not available but a search found that Michelin was still producing a 25" clincher. Gray in color and a bit pricey but well built good looking tires. I think they are still available.

[oldcarfudd]

Hi, Jan!

 

It was good to see you, and your Hudson and Hupmobile, on the Ellsworth tour.

 

The Coker website lists an 895x135 Excelsior beaded edge (clincher) tire for $523.  Rim size is 625 mm, which is awfully close to 25 inches.  Tire diameter is 33 inches.  You might call Coker and see whether this will fit.

 

Gil Fitzhugh the Elder

Edited July 10, 2017 by oldcarfudd
left out a word (see edit history)

[jankendrick@hotmail.com]

Good suggestion, Gill. I had examined their list of tires, but wasn't sure which of the metric would work best. I'll check that out. In the meantime, I owe Gil, Jr. a tire.

 

[edinmass]

When you figure in the cost of tires running about 600 each, it makes the new wheel option a more attractive option if you can get to a standard size that looks right for about half the cost. In a perfect world you should try  and stay as close to what came on it as possible. Often people run bigger tires because they look better. I would probably go to the next size up that is readily available. Ed

Edited July 10, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Tom400CFI]

19 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Most straight-side tires have steel (rods, wires, or cables) in the bead. It is very unlikely that you could ever stretch a straight-side tire onto a clincher rim. If you had a modern tire shop use one of their machines? Chances are good that either the tire, or the rim, or the tire machine, would be seriously damaged. I have seen the results of such efforts a few times over the years. In one case, it was revealed that a tire shop's machine suffered a couple thousand dollars damage.

I can attest to this....I was the one who put the straight sided tire onto that rim and it was a true M-F'er.  No tire machine; I used one tire iron, a spoon and way too many F-bombs to get that thing on.  Once on, it was such a tight fit on the rim that inflating it didn't move the bead out to the bead of the rim.  Stuffing rope into the rim's clincher bead was fun too.  

 

No, putting a straight tire on a clincher rim is do-able (I only say that b/c I DID it)...but not a "solution", in my opinion.  Another solution needs to be found.  I would be talking to Coker tire too, but if a run of tires is needed now might be a good time for a group purchase.

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Tom400CFI (see edit history)

[Brass is Best]

If the tire issue becomes tiring I would be happy to give the Hudson a new home. Wonderful looking automobile!

[jankendrick@hotmail.com]

LOL! You already have some fabulous automobiles! I will keep that in mind, because I'm simply floored that this is an issue at all!

[61polara]

See the top post in this section "AACA Tires" and respond to Eric Marsh about your needs.  This is what he is trying to put together for us.

[gossjh]

I used thick round extension cord sectioned instead of rope and put in the groove to mount and then ran with no issues. Another car upon inspection, I found that the rings were reversible and simply mounted them to the flat side. Remember that straightwall tires have a reinforcement in the inner portion, so they will not deform so much when the air pressure is applied.

[Rusty_OToole]

I would use the 3 1/2 tires and never worry about it again. I/2" is nothing, a difference of  2.4% in diameter.

[Mark Shaw]

17 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I would use the 3 1/2 tires and never worry about it again. I/2" is nothing, a difference of  2.4% in diameter.

 

I agree with Rusty.  Don't be too anal about the little differences and enjoy your car...