Todays Customer Service

[JohnD1956]

So:  I went to my local ACE Hardware to get some extra keys for the Electra.  I did get an extra ignition key back when I got the car, but for some reason I did not get an extra trunk key,  but that’s not important.  I wanted to get both an ignition key and trunk key now. 

So the clerk who has helped me in the past with other keys offers to assist.  I’ll call him Clerk1.  Here’s how it went:

Me: I’d like to get one key like this ( Ignition Key) and two of these ( trunk Key).  There is a letter code on the blanks here.  I hope you still have the blanks.

Clerk 1: Looks at the key and then stuffs the ignition key into a slot below the computer.  He looks at the computer, pulls the key out of the slot and stuffs it back in.  Keys some stuff on the keyboard and pulls the key out and then stuffs it into a different slot machine next the computer.  Types a bunch of other stuff and then asks me what type of car it is.

Me: It’s a 72 Buick Electra, but the code for the blank can be seen on the key, do you have blanks with that code.

Clerk 1 looks at the rack of keys and picks one off but puts it back and spins the carousel.   Then he sighs and takes the key and stuffs it into the slot below the computer again.  Types more stuff and asks me to id the car again.  Pulls the key out and stuffs it into the other slot and then selects a blank off the board.  He cuts the key and  hands them to me to which I checked and he had the right blank.

Me: This is good, now I need two of these (trunk key).

Clerk1,  same basic scenario as above.  After a few more minutes he pulls another square keyhead blank off the same rack.

Me: I think that’s wrong.  It should be a round key.

Clerk1: Sir, that’s not what the computer says.  It says right there that it should be this blank

Me: That can’t be right. It should be a round key, what’s the code on the blank? Does it match my key?

Clerk 1: You can’t go by that. Our blanks are not the same as your keys, they are different and the computer says that is the right blank.  Do you want me to cut it or not?

Me: Okay, go ahead and cut it.

Clerk1 hands me the two keys which of course matched perfectly in terms of the tumbler surface, but which were totally different in terms of the side slots.

Me: See this, this key won’t go into the lock.  This cannot be right.

Clerk1 takes the keys and says the cut matches perfectly.

Me: I agree, but the slots are wrong. This key will not go into my lock.

Clerk1:  This is the right key according to the computer but I see what you mean.  Clerk1 then calls for assistance.

Clerk2 arrives and the situation is explained by Clerk 1. 

Clerk2:  Well, You gotta go by the code on the original key.  See here, this one is a code C, so you use a code C off the board.

Clerk1: But that’s not what the computer says.

Clerk2: You can’t go by the computer. These car guys know their cars.  You only go by the code on the key.  What’s that screen you have on the computer?  You shouldn’t even be on that screen.  That’s not right!  Here, here is the blank with the code C, use that one.

Clerk1:  cuts the keys and hands them to me and apologizes several times for his errors.

Me: Don’t worry about it….  LOL…

[Thriller]

I got some keys cut by one of those machines a while back. Half of them worked. I got a refund and went to my usual key place where it's done old school and had nary a problem. 

 

[Thriller]

Ask them to make change without a computerized till...man I feel old now. 

 

[smithbrother]

Having cut keys for 40 years, and I might add, THOUSANDS, I refused to buy one of the new so called AUTOMATIC machines.

 

Of course the horizontal groves must match, holding YOUR key against the new one comparing the tumbler rests isn't proof it will work.  99 percent of the time the head shape should be the same shape as the original.  Exception could be house keys.  

 

We paid 10 cents for blanks, 99 cents for a good key replacement, I could normally cut one in less than a minute.  We were known as a good key cutting store, we kept the two machines at the registers, so very often it was that that reminded them they need a key made, very profitable.

 

Dale in Indy 

[Bhigdog]

The clerk was likely a recent college grad with a BS in some "soft" discipline and a huge loan balance. He couldn't get in with Starbucks (not arrogant enough). McDonalds had all the burger flippers they need. So.............he's a highly educated ACE key cutter that can't find his butt with both hands. Oy Vey...................Bob

[dmfconsult]

Last time I went to get replacement keys for the Electra (just to have a spare set), it was almost impossible to find anyone that even had the correct blanks!  None of the big box stores had the correct blanks.  I had to find an old shop with the blanks in stock. 

[Beemon]

20 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

The clerk was likely a recent college grad with a BS in some "soft" discipline and a huge loan balance. He couldn't get in with Starbucks (not arrogant enough). McDonalds had all the burger flippers they need. So.............he's a highly educated ACE key cutter that can't find his butt with both hands. Oy Vey...................Bob

Masters in Humanities and Fine Arts with a minor in English

[EmTee]

10 years from now nobody will even know what a 'car key' is... 

 

Hey Beemon - those chrome valve covers sure sparkle!

[dei]

John,

I hit the 'Like' button with hesitation as I really don't like the situation but... understand, more than like, what happens like this today.  

Maybe we should have an "I understand" or "I get it button"? ha ha

 

I remember back in the late 70's having my '58 Buick's, going to the parts counters and them telling me I needed a part number for cross reference because their system didn't show that far back! 

This was pre-computer days and had to go to MANY Swap Meets to gather / stock up on parts for my needs without being down till the issue was fixed. 

Then the internet came along and WOW! However, still had to deal with the younger help who always entered 1968 because they didn't believe what they had heard......

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same. 

 

[NTX5467]

From "the other side of things" . . .

 

I've used the hand cutters and the trace cutters and knew how to read the codes and such.  Then came the 10-cut double-sided keys!  There were "adapters" so we could use the trace (grinder) machine.  Had to buy a new hand cutter, too.  Then came the multitude of GM "partner" cars (Japanese, Korean, etc.), EACH with their own key blanks and needed cutters!  The hand cutters were about $700.00 EACH back then.  The lease on the computerized key cutters were less than that and did everything.  No brainer to go that way!

 

The ignition keys must clear the "wings" on the steering column cylinder.  The door keys don't.  On the normal 5-cut keys, as noted, there's the letter code near the key's head.  This identified the slot placement and width on the key blank's shank.  NOW, in the case of the '55 style Briggs & Stratton keys, they also have the letter code.  "A", "B", "C", and "D" as the later GM keys do.  The thickness of the B&S keys is a little thicker than the later, normal GM blanks with the same letter codes, plus the shape of the key's head (and the "GM" logo vs the B&S logo).  So, the later keys will work in the earlier ignition cylinders.

 

In the case of the "H" door blank, there are TWO of them.  One the normal one and the other one first used on 1990s Buicks, with a larger head (I suspect so older fingers can better grasp them!), but a different GM part number and possibly a different key number (as in "part number") for the computer to recognize.

 

On the 10-cut keys, EACH GM carline had keys with their respective logo on them!  Same blank, different plastic for the head!  Different GM part number for each one, too!

 

On the key cutter computer, there is a menu to identify which blank fits which car.  That's what the clerk was following as the related paper catalog/book probably was not available (or known about, IF they had one).

 

For the computerized cutters to work right, they have to have the correct "offset codes" programmed into them.  This is done when it's initially set-up by the vendor.  IF those codes are not correct, the key cut depths can be a little off, by observation.  We had one that looked to me like it didn't cut quite deep enough, but few keys ever came back for "re-tries".  I didn't really trust it, but that was my only option, plus advising that if it didn't work, we'd do what we could to make it right.  Sometimes, doing a second cut session with the came pattern might work.

 

So, the computerized key cutters are "universal" and require different drop-in cartridges for the respective key blanks.  The correct blank number is necessary for the initial programming (not the letter, but the key company's part number for the blank, where the paper catalog come in handy).  The cuts can be traced, or "cut by code", or "cut by depths".  Have to know how to manipulate the system.

 

And THEN, we've transitioned into the "side-cut" keys as many import brands have had for several years.  That's a different cutter, too!

 

In some cases, you might say that "It's gotten out of hand!"  but we have little choice but to do the best we can.

 

A year of so ago, I had to have a new key for my 2005 Impala.  I called a locksmith and after giving them the VIN and other information to get the code out of GM, plus credit card information, they arrived and used a 10-cut hand cutter to cut the keys.  That should have been a bullet-proof situation, but there were problems.  Apparently the depth of the insertion into the cutter was a little off.  It took some jiggling to get the key to turn.  One of them was better than the other one in the ignition cylinder, but worked grat in the door and deck lid..  Then, I took the best one in and asked one of my associates to do me a key.  He found a GM blank and traced the other key.  THAT key works flawlessly in the ignition cylinder!

 

As for getting keys cut at a non-dealership situation, I always look at the selection of key blanks to see if there is one like I need.  Many times, they don't have any matches.  If they do, I'll pull it off myself to verify the match and then ask for it to be cut.

 

Clerk 1 obviously had little experience with the keys, other than "follow the computer", as was probably the "training" that was given.  Clerk 2 seemed to have "been there before" and had some knowledge of key blanks.

 

Resistor chip keys?  Another story.  Transponder keys?  Another story.    Code cuts are best, if a competent person can read the code.  Trace cuts on a worn key give you a new blank with worn cuts.

 

NTX5467 

[JohnD1956]

Well thanks for the other half Willis.  But clerk 1 used the computer to pick the blank only. The cut was done on a new machine that had the original key ride on one end of the bar and the blank on the other end with the blade. Not sure if thats considered the hand cutter or what. 

Of course the point is the future service people are lost without a computer. If its on the screen its right, regardless. If its not on the screen it doesn't exist! 

Personally I think this is sad! 

[lancemb]

Hilarious and sad.  Glad you let clerk one go ahead and cut the first ones.   Sometimes it just isn't worth wasting your breath on logic.

[60FlatTop]

Interesting story, especially after I spent some time this week finding two sets of original GM key blanks for my '86 Park Ave. Since Ebay has become available I have not used anything but original blanks. AND, after having an original blank ruined on a local key machine with worn grinding wheels, I make a 50 mile round trip to a busy hardware store in Rochester to have keys made.

 

Shortly after we bought our house in 1981 one of the elements in the Sears Craftsman labeled electric hot water heater failed. I called the local Sears parts supply and read the serial number. Nope, they never made such a thing and I was completely wrong.

I hung up and called an independent parts distributor and told them I needed a 3500 watt element for a Sears hot water heater. The 5 foot tall little old lady at the counter, who I picked it up from, simple asked "Is it a round one or a square one."

 

John, that was Albany, huh. Too bad that is not the only sign of ineptitude from that area.

Bernie

[Bill Stoneberg]

I find it best to deal with people who actually listen and are willing to learn at the same time. Once you find someone like this, be it at the local auto parts store or hardware store, keep going back to them and treat them well as they are worth their weight in gold. I try to hire the same in my business as most of the folks I get are just out of college. 

[60FlatTop]

I don't age discriminate in my business. I had a young guy working for me and he did a great job.

[NTX5467]

10 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

Well thanks for the other half Willis.  But clerk 1 used the computer to pick the blank only. The cut was done on a new machine that had the original key ride on one end of the bar and the blank on the other end with the blade. Not sure if thats considered the hand cutter or what. 

Of course the point is the future service people are lost without a computer. If its on the screen its right, regardless. If its not on the screen it doesn't exist! 

Personally I think this is sad! 

 

In one respect, they won't be any more "lost" than an auto supply clerk who knows little about cars, by observation.  Once, I went into a metro-area auto supply in search of a "timing tape" (a tape with degrees of rotation to go onto the balancer so a normal, as in 1970 normal, could be used to check distributor advance).  He acted like he knew what I was talking about and came back with a timing chain for the engine I mentioned.  Then looked surprised when it was not what I wanted.  I explained what a "timing tape" was and he went back to the office, then came back and said they didn't have that.

 

Another time, I went in search of "point grease", in the 1990s.  The chain auto supply/repair store I went to had a younger guy who was visiting with his girlfriend, which I interrupted.  I asked for "point grease" and he brought me some wheel bearing grease.  As if "grease is grease".  I advised that that was too heavy for what I wanted, figured he had NO clue, and went to another place.

 

Everybody, even US, had to build product knowledge of our vehicles.  Younger people, by default, haven't got there yet.  Something WE have to tolerate, unfortunately.

 

The computerized parts databases we how have have a multitude of sort functions such that real knowledge is allegedly NOT necessary to use them.  This, just as in the older times, can result in "They don't list that part . . ."  The other thing is that our vehicles are well out of the 5-10 year old median age which many places stock parts for, generally.  Or at least "in house stock".  Still, a certain level of product knowledge IS still needed, although many haven't realized that just yet.  Problem is . . . they might not ever realize that!

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

Don't get me started on auto supply stores. Though, I have noticed by observation that most people my age working the counter seem to be at least somewhat knowledgeable about cars that are mid 80s to early 90s and up, because that's what a lot of people my age drive since they're so cheap on Craigslist. When asking for a starter for my mom's 2003 S10, the guy behind the counter started going off about how it's a 6 cylinder SBC and had the part numbers down like the back of his hand. But when I ask about parts for the Buick, I always check RockAuto or NAPA first, get the part number online and then give it to them to save myself having to go through unnecessary hoops. There was a time I got into an argument with the guy at the same Autozone when buying my rear coil springs. He said it didn't fit the Buick, even though someone here on the forums had confirmed it did. So I went to NAPA, gave them the part number and they ordered it up. Dana products in my opinion seem better than Duralast, anyways. It just really depends on who works there. At the NAPA I go to, I only talk to the same guy every time. There are two old guys from when the cars were contemporary and a young guy. The young guy knows his 4x4s and Japanese cars, but gives you the blank stare when you ask for points. Likewise, one of the old guys there has absolutely no idea what he's talking about, and the other old guy uses the computer first, but when he can't find it, he dusts off the old book and pulls up the interchange. It's really hard to find expertise in any field at the minimum wage level because it just doesn't exist. The company would rather fill the position than pay someone who know's their stuff, which is the sad reality of jobs that pay more than minimum wage, like machinists for example.

[NTX5467]

The "hand cutter" has tabs which are a "cam" with variable depths of cuts.  Operates by hand only.  Insert the key fully into it, set the tabs to match the cut depths, and cut each item sequentially to the end. 

\

Sound like what they used was a trace operation.  On our computerized cutters, once the key blank has been selected, if it's a trace, the "pattern" is inserted into the top slot and the fresh blank is put into the bottom slot in the particular cartridge.  Punch the button and it "goes".  If a cut code, just the fresh blank is put into the bottom slot.  Have to put it in squarely and such or it'll cut it wrong.

 

In any event, although training might have indicated otherwise (trust the computer), it would seem that if the clerk had any knowledge of how key cylinders worked, the importance of "the slots" would be evident, and how the letter codes could identify them.  OR at least a visual confirmation of "match" or "no match", even if the letter codes were not present.  For years, I didn't want anything to do with cutting keys, but after I read the section in my 1968 Buick service manual, it all made sense.  No real mysteries, once it was all explained in print.  I already knew about specific key blanks, but no knowledge of what went on with the cylinder's guts at that time.  

 

I'd watched our alleged "gurus" cut keys and code cylinders.  Seems there was always additional labor operations involved, rather than "remove and replace", as it should be.  Lots of scrunched-up mouth positions, sometimes!  In retrospect, we might not have had the correct tumblers or they'd somehow got mixed in the box.  Anyway, something I didn't desire to know anything about, back then.  It helps if it's something you do pretty often and have the correct items to deal with.  Cutting and duplicating the normal keys, even worn original keys, is not the "black science" I originally suspected it to be.

 

NTX5467  .

[NTX5467]

The "generational aspect" of the parts business has been around for a very long time.  Just that when technology and vehicle architectures are somewhat stable, as they can be for extended periods of time, things are easier to deal with as they are "more common" in nature.  Even then, there were some parts guys who gravitated to know more about pickups than cars, or body parts more than mechanical parts, for example, with larger trucks being in their own universe.  Unless they keep up with things, many know more about the age of the cars they drive than anything newer, by observation.  What they're interested in.  Nothing's changed.  No matter of how they're paid.

 

Using rockauto as a research base was something I started doing 20 years ago, when I found out about it.  It was easier than trying to maintain a whole pile of old paper catalogs.  Auto supplies usually have their regional jobbers they source out of.  The chain stores have their own dedicated networks.  Sometimes they cross, sometimes not.  Where there used to be three or four jobbers, there are now 1 or 2.  Many product lines have consolidated via "investors"  getting a diverse group of products under their control.  Two main "funds" now control competing product lines of the major brands we've know for years, which were their own operations in prior times.  Be that as it may.

 

Result is that many chain stores have databases of their own.  If they don't show it, it's not available to them.  Even NAPA is that way, on a regional basis.  This makes rockauto much more of "a value" to the enthusiast who can look up their own parts.

 

Bad thing about the old catalogs I took pains to accumulate in the 1980s-90s is that most everything in them is now usually available.  Or at least not widely available.  They can be historical reference items, to hopefully better determine what was different between model years and such, but not information like it used to be.

 

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

Google "Parts counter person fun" for an alternate view.

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 6:11 PM, Beemon said:

Masters in Humanities and Fine Arts with a minor in English

 

Or probably Urban Studies with a minor in Women's Studies.

 

The reason I included the latter is because I have a friend that his daughter who has a PHD in Women's Studies and can not find a job anywhere and she is in her mid 30's and back living at home.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Dang, I have a masters in life sciences and can find a job tomorrow if I wanted! And I am 80 years young.

 

  Ben

[Thriller]

My sister started with a physiotherapy degree and continued into women's studies...we don't talk much. 

 

[Beemon]

Sounds a lot like both of my sisters. Lol

[Larry Schramm]

8 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Dang, I have a masters in life sciences and can find a job tomorrow if I wanted! And I am 80 years young.

 

  Ben

 

If you want to work at almost any age, get a degree in Electrical Engineering with work in hybrid vehicles.   I continue to get calls.

[jackofalltrades70]

10 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Or probably Urban Studies with a minor in Women's Studies.

 

The reason I included the latter is because I have a friend that his daughter who has a PHD in Women's Studies and can not find a job anywhere and she is in her mid 30's and back living at home.

Women don't want to be studied!  Some of these degrees they come up with to sandbag students outnof their money is amazing.

I have one of the most difficult degrees in the School of Hard Knocks, with a Major in Pride of Work and have NEVER been unable to find a great job.

Matt

 

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

5 minutes ago, jackofalltrades70 said:

Women don't want to be studied!  Some of these degrees they come up with to sandbag students outnof their money is amazing.

I have one of the most difficult degrees in the School of Hard Knocks, with a Major in Pride of Work and have NEVER been unable to find a great job.

Matt

 

 

 

 LOL!  That is what I was trying to say, Matt. 

 

  Ben

[NTX5467]

I don't think it's so much the "innovative" or "unusual" degree per se, BUT who made up the curriculum and printed the books used for them?  YIKES!  NO school wants to be perceived as being "old" as others test the boundaries of what areas of specialization students desire.  Although there are some majors which will always be in demand, you never really know until "5 years out" what the next "new thing" might be (after it's too late).

 

To me, getting back to a science, technology, physical health, and communications general orientation might be good.  BUT unless workers get good training, regardless of formal education, the result is mediocre at best.  To me, "good training" also comes with explanations of what didn't work, so don't make these same mistakes as you traverse your learning curve.  That last issue seems to get lost about three "generations" past when the "what not to do" surfaces, by observation.  This has resulted in "best practices" and "scripts", whether by class work or computer screen prompts, so we're back to where we started.

 

As businesses have combined and grown to the sizes they now are, the alleged focus on customer service has become less of an issue.  People go to them for the product and a willing employee that can show them where it is in the store . . . little else.  Going somewhere where the employees can offer direction and advice, even if it's just the ONE you encounter, makes you want to return later.  No matter if it's at a car dealership parts dept or a big box retailer.  You hope that if you go to a smaller, local store that the employees will have a higher level of training or product knowledge, but sometimes that doesn't work either.

 

As for "informed customers", the Internet can be an enemy, but sometimes can help.  IF the informed customer is really knowledgeable about that which they desire, them doing their research first can help the situation along.  IF, on the other hand, they are new to the game, they might not know which internet advice is good and which is not.  Some internet information, from postings, is perceived to be "correct", when the poster is merely re-stating what has been posted in another forum.  NO efforts to validate it prior to posting it, usually.  IF the posted information is "flaky", that CAN be an issue at the local parts counter!  They found it on the Internet, so it must be true!

 

Then, a good counterperson will have enough product knowledge and back-up information to indicate that what's been found might not be completely accurate, in those online postings.  THAT can make the difference, the explanation of things, between somebody that just reads the listings and the one that can read between the lines and understand it.

 

NTX5467

 

Edited June 25, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

On the topic of customer service, can anyone find worse service than medical billing?

 

Makes John's key man look like a genius.

[Bill Stoneberg]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

On the topic of customer service, can anyone find worse service than medical billing?

 

Check your bills closely Bernie, I have a friend who make a 6 figure income by getting percentage of what he finds while looking for errors om medical bills.

A good example is they billed someone who passed for a tonsilectimy at almost $ 45,000 for Doctor, Room and Anestegioligist.

[NTX5467]

Always seems interesting that some bill notifications or insurance "we paid ________" and "You may be billed $______ by_________".  How many other entities can normally run 6 months behind in their billing?

 

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

All too often I commit some kind of monetary transaction where the seller has no idea of how much they are charging.

"How much do I owe on this (insurance, bank, revolving charge, whatever)?"

"The total due is $79.43."

Paid exactly as requested.

Two months later. "Balance due $3.76."

OR "Refund, $1.80."

 

"Why was I given the wrong amount when I asked the balance?"

 

"The computer didn't know until you paid it."

"How did it know AFTER I paid?"

"It computed it."

 

It's not just me. Star Ship Captains have the same frustration.

[EmTee]

59 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

It's not just me. Star Ship Captains have the same frustration.

 

That's what happens when Number 1 is full of number 2...