Starting a 1925

[Guest Leeroy]

Hi Guys,

Just after an hot tips in starting a 1925 engine :-)

Just bought a Maxwell 1925 Tourer (yesterday).

Test drove it a couple of times and seemed good.

Went to start it today, and it was fun.

Took me a while, flooded it to start with, then decided to get the hair dryer out and warm it up a bit :-) (ambient was 16c, but overnight would have been 10c)

No luck.

Pulled the spark plugs out, not wet, so cleaned anyway, with emery paper, also cleaned the leads that connect to spark plugs with a file.

Still no luck.

Decided to move the chock in and out while turning over, finally fired up!

Let it idle for a good 15mins to warm up.

Switched off.

Left it 2 hours, went to fire up, once again no luck.

This time I got someone to hold the hair dryer at the air intake, so nice hot air was going in and it fired up nicely!

Really doesn't like cold air, not that 16c is really that cold.

Drove it around for 20mins, turned it off, and it starts straight away, did this test a couple of times and all fine.

 

Obviously I'm new to this, so any tips would be awesome!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[maok]

I think you have discovered that you have to choke the hell out of it to start it when not at running temp.

I'm in Brisbane, even I have to use the choke to start.

 

 

[F&J]

2 hours ago, Leeroy said:

Really doesn't like cold air,

 

 

Ah, Grassshopper...    (very old TV series catch word)

 

You,... have just stumbled onto the fact that automotive engineering, which is "still yet advancing today", was at the point when the engineers were trying to deal with the fact that cold/or also cold/damp air, mixed with gas vapors was needing the final fix..

 

The earliest cars had NO way to preheat the manifold or air intake.  Then later, they used a preheat air "pipe" to solve(or help) the cold air problem, but still hadn't figured out how to preheat the manifolds of many different types used of different engines.

 

So, with me never having worked on your exact car, meaning make AND exact year...  You must find out the exact info on what is supposed to be on that car for preheating, as well as if it really is still there, does it still function as intended.

 

Not to say there darn well could be other issues with carb and ignition in their entirety, but start there before you go "jumping around".   

 

Early cars need to have everything "perfect".  PERIOD.  as in the original fashion.  Yes, some non-purists have changed parts or whatever, to actually make a 1925 design auto, more like perhaps a 1930 auto technology.

 

I will say that a "1925" auto should not only start well at all temps, but if back to factory settings/repairs, it will run good at all temps.  One perfect example I did own for 6 days....that was the BEST 1925 auto as far as the above, was a 25 Star with Continental Engine.

 

Your car NEEDS WORK 

 

 

 

 

[F&J]

3 hours ago, Leeroy said:

Obviously I'm new to this, so any tips would be awesome!

 

2 hours ago, maok said:

I think you have discovered that you have to choke the hell out of it to start it when not at running temp.

I'm in Brisbane, even I have to use the choke to start.

 

 

What both replies so far have eluded to, is me saying your cars entirety needs to be spot on, maok is implying in his way, that you MUST get a copy of the 25 Maxwell operators manual.

 

Cars changed very rapidly from teens to say 1932.... those cars around late teens would still have somewhat hidden, or often not understood, -under the hood MANUAL>adjustable hot air systems....the manual told what to set these at for DIFFERENT climates!  (as well as chokes/and carb settings).Like Moak implies in his own way, .

[maok]

Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear in my response;

[F&J]

2 hours ago, maok said:

Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear in my response;

 

 

This is a PERFECT time for me to give a good reason WHY these earlier PREWAR cars are either not considered for hobby purchase or use, by either blanket comments from others, or in many cases, YOUR own impressions of the "finicky, or inferior"......or..."Just TOO old" of a car.!!!

 

When a person decides to get a prewar car to USE, and fully ENJOY, you MUST not only research what design you have , to the PRECISE model and year, you also must LEARN these designs fully as to the operators manual.  You MUST forget all prior knowledge and settings/controls of a POST WAR auto!!!

 

Get your 1921 or 1914 auto properly set to that exact original "repair", AND settings, and it WILL behave as intended, for THAT exact car and YEAR.

 

Example of a commonly known world wide auto:  VW aircooled beetle COMPARISONS from 1960 to late 70s.  The 60 was the last year of the tiny 36 hp, it had a exhaust preheated LOWER intake manifold, but the upper intake is just a steel pipe, not heated at all.  As air fuel mix rushes through any restriction, as in a venturi or that pipe, then at PRECISE exact conditions of ambient air temps AND humidity, you certainly will/can observe 3 things at different situations:

 

_ you will see that upper pipe completely DRY

-you will see the pipe covered in water droplets

-you will see that pipe covered in FROST

 

any time that pipe is NOT dry, you will either have a car that will not idle at all without stalling, or if it tries to idle, it will run extremely POORLY.  Any ice or water you see on the outside, is also hidden INSIDE that pipe!!  By the last year of USA availability of the VW, you can see that they indeed ended with the best "possible" solutions to keep the intake DRY!

Edited June 17, 2017 by F&J (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

It seems to me any car with an updraft carburetor will need full choke to start any time it is not up to full operating temp. Because the engine must lift the gas into the cylinders. When an engine is turning slowly for starting the intake air is not moving very fast. It will take quite a bit of gasoline to make a mixture that will burn.

 

With a down draft carb any gasoline that gets into the carb throat will fall into the manifold and stay there until it evaporates and gets burned. So less choke may be needed to start.

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said:

It seems to me any car with an updraft carburetor will need full choke to start any time it is not up to full operating temp. Because the engine must lift the gas into the cylinders. When an engine is turning slowly for starting the intake air is not moving very fast. It will take quite a bit of gasoline to make a mixture that will burn.

 

With a down draft carb any gasoline that gets into the carb throat will fall into the manifold and stay there until it evaporates and gets burned. So less choke may be needed to start.

That's my experience, at least for cars using vacuum tanks or mechanical fuel pumps.  Cars with pressurized tanks and primers not included....

[cahartley]

Updraft carbs are notoriously easy flooders.

In my experience a fast, complete, choke is enough to start the engine.

Any more than that there is gas slobbering on the ground from the inlet air horn.

If the carb doesn't slobber gas after a longer choke I think there is something wrong with it.

 

[Guest]

(Above)  This Hart Parr is the oldest operating tractor in Alberta. This shows how easily and nicely an old engine can start when you know how and the engine is set up right.  (Below) Bud sure starts his tractor with almost no effort.

I have been told by people for almost 60 years about how hard a 20's and early 30's (split head) Pontiacs were to start.  Unless it has been running in the last few minutes, full choke and it has always started in about three revolutions.  Right down to below -40 degrees.  When cranking by hand full choke pull it over (1/4 turn from 9 to 12) three times.  Turn on the ignition and one pull and it starts then run like hell to push the choke half way in.  I laugh at these people that push down on the crank and then spin it round and round.  Something is wrong with the settings as well as the operator. 

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[cahartley]

I built a 30-60 Hart Parr for a friend.

Not to side track the thread but the 30-60 has an overhead cam, buzz coil ignition and hit & miss governing.

Here's how one acts under a load....... .

 

 

[Guest Leeroy]

Thanks Guys for all the responses.

 

@F&J Yes I'm hunting for any documentation that will assist in setting up the engine to factory, I have no idea how much the carby has been messed with or even if it's all complete. The car did come with a "Chrysler Four" operators manual, which is apparently the same car but badged Chrysler instead of Maxwell.

@maok I think I end up giving it too much choke, as I end up seeing fuel dripping on the ground below the Carb. My attempt at start up is as follows - Turn fuel tap on, turn switch to ignition, pull choke out a quarter, and push button on floor to turn it over. I give it about 6 turn overs and stop, then try again, this is when I start to give it a bit more choke, or pull the choke out quickly and back in. These are the instructions that the previous owner gave me.

On a side note, once its warmed up, it fires up first time.

@Rusty_OToole Yup I'm seeing fuel leaking from the lower part of the manifold which attaches to the carb. And being a 6Volt system it turns over slowly, It has a brand new battery in it, maybe it just not getting enough air to start with?

@cahartley Yup I'm pooling fuel when I'm messing around trying to start it. But when I do finally get it started its like it cannot get enough! Bit strange, I think i'll work through adjusting everything back to standard, as I have no idea if the carb mixture/adjustments are correct.

@Tinindian I did try the crank handle, damn is hard to do a full rotation, looking a the video shows you just pull up and reset to bottom and try again :-) Once it sort my starting issues I will give this another go, just so I know how :-)

 

I'm also trying to identify the Carb, its a Zenith, on the top it has "Dec29-08 June27-16" and on the side it has very lightly engraved 424, not 100% on the last 4 though.

I have posted in the Maxwell section of this forum to see if any other Maxwell owner might be able to assist with any documentation.

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

5 minutes ago, Leeroy said:

Yup I'm seeing fuel leaking from the lower part of the manifold which attaches to the carb.

A fuel leak could also mean a vacuum leak. In other words if there is a hole fuel can leak out of, it can suck air in the same hole. This will mess up the carburetion (make it run lean ). Check if the carb bolts are loose. If they are not loose then you may need a new gasket.

[Grimy]

Try this technique, which works on my 1930 Pierce with 2-barrel UUR-2 (authentic for '31-'32), and on my friend's 1931 Stude President 8, and I've tried many different techniques:

 

1.  Fuel on, ignition on.

2. Retard spark all the way

3. Hand throttle fully open (full throttle--but be ready to *instantly* return it to near idle)

4. Full choke for first five seconds while cranking, then back to 1/4.

5. As soon as it fires, close throttle and advance spark

 

These carbs have designed-in overflow drains with 5/16 tube going through splash pan, so I question the vacuum leak without further info.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Grimy
HAND throttle--corrected typo (see edit history)

[C Carl]

Hi Leeroy ! A warm and hearty welcome to AACA forums ! You would have to search far and wide , and still not find such a great , knowledgeable bunch of guys , and even some great gals ! Two things , quickly , and then I have to run. ONE : your symptoms are distinctly NOT carb ice. I have significant experience , both on 4 wheels , and 2 wings to discount that in your case. Two : Extreme intake heating was necessary from the mid - late 'teens , all through the '20s , and continued as a worse than useless , counter-productive "throwback" , on into the '30s. The reason for this is corroborated here , from "Marks' Mechanical Engineers Handbook" , 3rd Ed. 1930 , and 2nd Ed, 1924 , respectively , shown here. Harold Sharon wrote knowledgeably about this in his book , "Understanding Your Brass Car". For those interested in further postings on this , please select postings by entering "Harold Sharon" in the widest category search box in AACA forums. I'll be back to check here , but I absolutely must run now. Please stay with us !  - Carl

[maok]

Show us a pic, you from the non convict state.

[Guest Leeroy]

Hi Guys,

Pics of Carb, let me know your thoughts. 

Not sure if its factory to have the spring going to the magneto.

[F&J]

42 minutes ago, Leeroy said:

 

 

let me know your thoughts. 

Springs are not correct...but, these old cars with lots of decades, lots of wear from use or vibrations of the old engine designs, can often have worn, bent, sticking linkages or even a warped throttle shaft or similar issues.  Then the owner adds springs to counteract issues.

 

EDIT adding:  Those pics show the very long tube like distance from carb throttle plate all the way up to the thicker mass of the intake manifold.  Feel that when you are at different outdoor temps as it first starts.  You sure will feel the cold issue, caused by Air/fuel mix rushing through.  !

Edited June 18, 2017 by F&J (see edit history)

[Guest]

Leeroy  you should never have to crank a vehicle more than old Bud does to start his tractor.  With full choke on and ignition off  you should turn the engine over like he does.  Just pull it over from about the 9 o'clock position over the top 12 o'clock position.  Then turn the ignition on an pull the engine over again (a quick pull from 9-12.  It should start on the first or second pull.

If you are using the starter pull the choke and turn the engine over.  Three or four turns by the starter should start it.  As soon as it fires start easing the choke in until it runs smooth.

The next time you get it running let it get up to operating temp.  Shut it off and try to restart.  When hot it should just need the key on and one turn over with the starter.

If you start adjusting things, use white nail polish or something like that, first marking where you started on anything you are turning or changing and only change one thing a small amount at a time.  Who know who or how much the adjustments have been messed with in the past.  Sometimes an eighth or sixteenth turn will correct a multitude of sins.  Don't be afraid to moving things but make sure you always know where it was before you changed it.

There is nothing magic about these old engines they run on basic physics.  They need compression, fuel and spark.  It does run so you know you have all three.  Two of them you can adjust at the carb or the distributor.  The choke just restricts the air, making the mixture richer for starting when cold.

Good Luck

[maok]

Leeroy, being an updraft carbie you will get fuel dripping from the bottom of the carb if it doesn't start straight away. There should be a small drain hole.

 

I would recommend that you pull the choke fully and then try to start it when cold.

 

If you are familiar with any carbie, you wont have much trouble with that one, they are very simple to clean and make new gaskets for it.

[hchris]

Yep, carb is original, springs are after market but obviously doing the job.

 

Yes you are likely to see throttle ice in our neck of the woods at this time of year, but this usually forms once the engine has been running for a minute or two.

 

How do I know ? because the first few blocks of driving from home were the most difficult when cold, particularly at traffic lights, trying to keep it running. 

 

Observing the ice ring forming around the casting adjacent the throttle plate, whilst in the shed, confirmed this for me.

 

In short all of your symptoms are typical of my experiences and using variations of the above remedies, in time, will sort you out. What worked best for me was to remove the plugs, tip a few drops of fuel straight into the plug holes refit plugs, half choke, ignition full retard, enough hand throttle for a fast idle and hit the starter, usually it would fire immediately; a complicated procedure but achieved the desired results.  

[Guest Leeroy]

Thanks Chris,

Just another thought, is it OK to squirt "easy Start" in these old engines? As in a short squirt in the intake?

[cahartley]

There is nothing wrong with using a LITTLE starting fluid now and then.......except that you shouldn't need it....... 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

You might try feeding propane into the carburetor from a propane torch, not lit. From the 20s to the 40s you could buy an accessory called "Ki gas" that injected a spray of gasoline into your carburetor for quick starting of cars, tractors and airplanes. You could try it with a Flit gun but the propane would be easier.

[maok]

I prefer to use ' Start Ya Bastard'

 

[JFranklin]

Me too!

[37_Roadmaster_C]

One thing that I think should be mentioned for safery....  When starting you should NEVER be pushing down on the crank, only pull up.  The reason for this is that if you are on a down push and the beast back fires that is the end of your arm and/or elbow as the crank WILL be pushed back up with force.  A properly adjusted carb and good ignition WILL start very easily with  a couple of up pulls.  If you need to crank with the ignition off to prime I still find it easier to follow the same rules and only pull up. That way when you forget the ignition is on and she fires you are still safe.  My friend has a 1913 Studebaker with an updraft holley carb and that car will start on one or two up pulls every time after we first get her running after winter storage.  Sweet little 4 cylinder engine and very pleasant to run.

[Larry Schramm]

23 minutes ago, 37_Roadmaster_C said:

One thing that I think should be mentioned for safery....  When starting you should NEVER be pushing down on the crank, only pull up.

 

The reason for this is that if you are on a down push and the beast back fires that is the end of your arm and/or elbow as the crank WILL be pushed back up with force.

A properly adjusted carb and good ignition WILL start very easily with  a couple of up pulls.  

 

My friend has a 1913 Studebaker with an updraft holley carb and that car will start on one or two up pulls every time after we first get her running after winter storage.  Sweet little 4 cylinder engine and very pleasant to run.

 

Very smart words of wisdom.

 

My 1915 Buick truck will usually start on about the 4th pull after sitting over the winter.  You can tell when it will start by the sound of the fuel being pulled through the carb and UP the intake.  I had it at the trim shop last month and it started after only 2 pulls.

 

Remember,  NEVER PUSH DOWN on the crank.  My crank on my truck usually engages about the 7:00 position and I just pull up thumb stretched forward, not wrapped around the crank.

[Guest Leeroy]

Thanks Guys, I'll try some of the stating techniques mentioned, if all else fails I'll give it a squirt of "Start ya Bastard: :-) I picked up a can yesterday.

@37_Roadmaster_C thanks for the safety tip, mine has both Crank handle and electric start, once I sort my starting issues I plan on ensuring I can fire it up with the crank.

 

I plan on stripping down the carb , to inspect and clean if required.

 

Does anyone have any documentation on this style of similar?

[hchris]

20 hours ago, Leeroy said:

Thanks Chris,

Just another thought, is it OK to squirt "easy Start" in these old engines? As in a short squirt in the intake?

 

For sure, the problem however remains with an updraft carb that anything you put into the intake usually "falls out" again before you can get the starter turning, unless you have very long arms.

[hchris]

39 minutes ago, Leeroy said:

Thanks Guys, I'll try some of the stating techniques mentioned, if all else fails I'll give it a squirt of "Start ya Bastard: :-) I picked up a can yesterday.

@37_Roadmaster_C thanks for the safety tip, mine has both Crank handle and electric start, once I sort my starting issues I plan on ensuring I can fire it up with the crank.

 

I plan on stripping down the carb , to inspect and clean if required.

 

Does anyone have any documentation on this style of similar?

 

Good luck with that, I haven't seen a carb or parts in years.

 

Having said that, they are very simple and the problems you are likely to be dealing with are worn throttle spindles and worn needle/seat float mechanisms, none are insurmountable.

[37_Roadmaster_C]

Leeroy,

 

There is a member here,  Carbking,  that may have some info that would help you.  He definately knows his carbs.  Look him up and send him a PM.  He is a wealth od information.

 

Found his web site address:   Carburator Shop

Edited June 20, 2017 by 37_Roadmaster_C (see edit history)

[Guest Leeroy]

@37_Roadmaster_C thanks, I have sent Carbking a message.

 

I tried to give a few of the start up methods above ago with no luck, lots of fuel dripping out of the drain whole again.

Each time I let it crank over about 5-6 times before I stop and give it a short rest.

Got it started in the end by using a hair dryer to pretty much blow on the carb until the fuel stops dripping out the bottom hole, then a few cranks with fuel tap off, turned it on and pulled choke in out once and it bloody fired up.

Its like it's having trouble pulling the mixture up into the engine? Possible air leak in carb assembly?

 

@hchris Oh and the Start ya Bastard stuff didn't work, arms not long enough lol. I didn't change nothing.

 

Will try and pull the Carb of on the weekend and make sure the gaskets are good and no leaks.

 

 

[carbking]

Impossible to be precise from the pictures. The Zenith model should be somewhere on the carb; but may be necessary to remove the carb to find it.

 

Maxwell did use a Zenith type T4X carburetor, and this COULD be one of those.

 

The T4X had a brass lower casting, and a cast iron upper casting, with a zinc alloy venturi. (Venturi, venturi, venturi, NOT venture)! Stupid auto correct is auto make incorrect!!!!!

 

Anyway, the cast iron was a thin casting and when the zinc alloy "swells" it often cracks the cast iron, creating an air leak right at the venture (OK,OK, I give up; the carburetor has a venture). My old computer finally gave up and had to replace it. Still have to add a number of words to its dictionary.

 

When you get the carb off, if it is a T4X, check the cast iron piece for vertical cracks.

 

Jon.

[Guest Leeroy]

Thanks Jon, hopefully I'll get it off this weekend (time permitting).

[hchris]

11 hours ago, carbking said:

Anyway, the cast iron was a thin casting and when the zinc alloy "swells" it often cracks the cast iron, creating an air leak right at the venture 

 

 

 

Amen to that, once had a box full of them - at one stage I tried to cast venturi in bronze and have it machined, all got too hard in the end.

[Guest Leeroy]

Ok, I've taken a heap more pics and have identified the Carb as a T4X as Jon suggested above.

 

Now for the next question :-)   Does anyone have any documentation on this model?  My farther and I are pulling it of for inspection on Saturday.

 

Oh, and he was over earlier, for a test run at starting it, and same again, lots of fuel dripping, got him to give a squirt of "start ya bastard" in the air intake as I cranked and fired up first shot.

It's like its not getting enough suction to draw the fuel into the inlet manifold, hopefully we'll find something when we pull it apart.

 

[maok]

Have a play with the idle jet screw. screw it all the way in then back it out 1 to 2 turns.

[C Carl]

It has already been mentioned , but please get in the habit of fully retarding your spark before turning on the ignition. It is a very good idea whether using the starter or the crank. You can damage the starter or your arm if this is not done. Don't forget to advance it fully when it starts , and back the hand throttle off when running smoothly.  - Carl

 

Addendum : As per Carbkings advice below , I have noticed the ease with which my '24 Cadillac lights up with a pull or two of the crank. Hotter spark is indeed beneficial. Just do it right , fully retarded on an upstroke with your thumb tucked safely out of the line of fire. I have never had an incident , but if I ever do , the crank will pull safely back , pushing out of my fingertips.

Edited June 21, 2017 by C Carl
Addendum (see edit history)

[carbking]

Leeroy sent me a PM about service material; and I hope he will not mind if I answer here.

 

The Zenith Service Manual from this period is not overly helpful, really only mentioning how to adjust the fuel level in the bowl. For the T4X, the fuel level should be 18mm below the top of the bowl. This MUST be measured with a gauge (pictured below):

 

 

 

 

 

The fuel level in the glass will be the same as the fuel level in the bowl. Zenith scribed a horizontal line on the outside of the bowl 100 years ago representing the correct level, but it may no longer be visible. If one does not own such a gauge, one may be fabricated using clear plastic tubing, and the necessary brass fittings to connect to the bottom of the bowl. Be sure to leave the top open so there is no air seal

 

As far as "troubleshooting" a "hard start", Zenith suggested: (1) compression, (2) ignition, (3) carburetor fuel level. Incidentally, Zenith suggested 1/32 of an inch (0.75mm) variance is TOO MUCH!

 

So, what can you look for when you disassemble the carburetor? A "groove" in the sealing area of the fuel valve. If one is there, it may be removed by chucking the valve in your lathe, setting the grinding attachment to the proper angle (memory says either 20 degrees or 25 degrees, but check it) and grinding the valve at the highest speed your lathe will turn. You will then need to reset the float level. Of course the recommended method is to take a measurement with the gauge, remove the solder from the needle collar, move the collar, and re-solder. However, I have found often, minute adjustments may be made by changing the thickness of the fibre washer beneath the fuel valve seat (a thicker gasket raises the seat, which will help compensate for the removal of metal from the needle). Also, check for cracks in the cast iron as I posted earlier, but your carb looks pretty good.

 

Having typed all of the above, personally, I would do a compression test FIRST, followed by a check of the ignition cables (particularly the "ground" or "earth" cable). Often enthusiasts grow over-zealous in painting inside the engine compartment, forgetting that the ground cable MUST make a good contact. I have solved many "carburetor" issues simply by taking a heavy-duty jumper cable, and connecting the ground terminal of the battery to a cylinder head bolt!!! To reinforce this suggestion, those vehicles that I have owned with both electric and crank start would often start better by hand-crank, because of the higher ignition voltage!

 

Jon.

Edited June 21, 2017 by carbking (see edit history)