Jim Nelson Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Need a 1954 , 55 rear end. Torque tube to the brake drums. At a minimum, third member with torque tube with 3.4 ratio. Axels and brakes a plus. Call or e-mail 727-251-6261. Or oldbuickjim@gmail.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 After jacking up and pulling 4 inspection plates finally found Jim a good one. He should be reporting on what he's doing with it soon. Quite amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 4 hours ago, MrEarl said: After jacking up and pulling 4 inspection plates finally found Jim a good one. He should be reporting on his what he's doing with it soon. Quite amazing With a bit of work that can under a 1938 series 40, but 3.4 is a tall ratio for a str8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 It's going in Jims 37. Lot of machine work involved, He also has a 38 with an overdrive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) Well, if you are going to 'DRIVE' your Buick, you need to either stay off any busy roads or change the rear ratio. My 38 coupe is set up with over drive. You start with the original rear and add over drive to have a good busy road car. End ratio becomes 3.12 : 1 and it's not a problem.. My 'new' 1937 coupe has a 3.9 rear. That makes it a 50 / 55 mph car. Way to slow for my busy driving world. Almost all traffic is 55 to 70 mph. So, I decided to go the 'change' the rear ratio. Most talk about using a '55' rear. Well, the '54' with dynaflow has 3.41 rear. A bit slower than my '38' but it will be a 60 / 65 mph car. You will most likely have to rebuild the '54' (or what ever you use) because things wear out. Some machine work to utilize the 'newer' rear ends. Parts are all available. I'm now trimming the mounting flange 1/4" to line up the 54 rear with the 37 axels. Not rocket science...... Edited July 14, 2017 by Jim Nelson Spelling error (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) If any one is interested in doing this, I have pix of the stages I'm going thru as I up grade my '37' to a good road car. I will be describing what I'm doing at each stage. Edited July 14, 2017 by Jim Nelson Add info (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 Does any one have the adjusting tool to adjust the 'adjusting ring that sets the loading of the main bearings that support the rear. The Service Manuals describe the need to use the correct tool but no pictures. They show the damage what some have done using the wrong tool but not what it should look like. ?? It seems to be a flat tool with two finger to engage the holes in the ring to set the "loading" of the two bearings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pont35cpe Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Jim, `38 was the first year of the hypoid(pinion gear was lowered) type rear end, and the angle of the engine was also tilted to match the angle of the drive line. Does your plan mention changing the the `37 engine mounting to match the angle of the hypoid rear end? If not I think there could be a problem for full up and down motion at the transmission and drive line connection, not to mention excessive wear to the U-joint, and angle drop could also cause the driveshaft housing to hit the frame where it passes thru the X-member. I could be wrong, but this is just a couple things I see as a problem. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Just a comment on this, I very recently installed the same ratio gear set in my '41 Roadmaster, and it is great. Pick up is still good, it doesn't feel "over geared"and it gives me much better cruising speeds on the highway. I am still in the process of getting a correction adapter for the speedometer. Of course the '41 has a bit more power than the earlier cars, but I think that it is a very good upgrade for these cars. Keith 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 (edited) Hi Kieth, If you need a speedo alter gear box, they are readily available. I have one of the guys about 2 miles from my place. I have the over drive in my '38' and needed one to get the speed more accurate. You need to provide a GPS speed vs what the speed is reading. I set my car to a speed like - 50mph and read what the gps said. Then did it for 55 mph and 60 and 65. This gave him 4 points to reference to . It has me about 3 mph low at 50, 2 mph at 55, 0 at 60 and 65. Below 50 it really does not matter if you are a few mph low as that is usually city. Unless you live on a residental area with a grass median (boulevard) and posted speed limits to low and most every one is 10 over and some up to 15 over. Occasional radar pisses us off. But if you are just puttering with you neet ole Buick, I let them cruise by me. Mine cost me $120. Reasonable I guess. First attempt was off but what ever it read, he corrected for it and got me reasonable accurate. Edited July 15, 2017 by Jim Nelson definition of road (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 Kieth, Did you do the modifications your self? I need a special tool that allows you to set the pre load on the main bearings on the ring gear. It is a 'flat' wrench with I believe two fingers to engage the pre-load on the two taper rollers that support the ring gear assembly. Next, in what sequence did you do the shortening of the torque tube and drive shaft ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 (edited) Mr 39-buick, Using the over drive with the original 4.44 rear makes the system a "4 speed" operating system. You start up using the original rear and go thru the three gears like the normal set up. Then engage the over drive (over 35-38 mph) and you now have a '4th gear'. This way you accelerate normally and easily and then shift into OD and cruise easily into the 65 mph range. Edited July 15, 2017 by Jim Nelson Additional detail on speed (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 Pont35cpe, The 1937 Buick has the 'hypod' style drive train. Engine and trans are level and the flex to the rear is taken up by the u-joint in the tail of the tranny. Possibly the '36' Buick had the straight rear end ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 18 hours ago, 1939_Buick said: With a bit of work that can under a 1938 series 40, but 3.4 is a tall ratio for a str8 3.4 works well in my '50. Biggest neg is that at low speed[ below 8 or so] the RPM is way below idle. So no more idling along in third at 4 or 5 mph. Third gear rpm dropped about 650 . Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 23 hours ago, MrEarl said: After jacking up and pulling 4 inspection plates Lamar, on my '50, the ratio is stamped on the bottom of the gear case. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Same on the 54's Ben, and I knew what ratio they were suppose to be, 3.4. Problem was, one had transmission fluid in it and gears visibly worn. One was half full of water and gears BADLY pitted, pea size. Now get this, remember the 4 door Dynaflow Roadmaster with the adjustable rockers? It had a 3.9 rear end, same as a standard shift! The fourth one looked really good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pont35cpe Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 10 hours ago, Jim Nelson said: Pont35cpe, The 1937 Buick has the 'hypod' style drive train. Engine and trans are level and the flex to the rear is taken up by the u-joint in the tail of the tranny. Possibly the '36' Buick had the straight rear end ? Jim, my mistake, I thought `38 was the first year of the lowering of the pinion gear, and yes my `36 has the pinion at axel height. Tom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 Ben, I am doing a series of pix to show what you need to do to upgrade your fine Buick to keep up with modern traffic. I live in a busy part of Florida and NEED to keep up with traffic unless you want to be run over. Most drivers are not tolerant of slow drivers around here. I will probably do a write up on the sequence of steps to make it easier for the next guy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 44 minutes ago, Jim Nelson said: Ben, I am doing a series of pix to show what you need to do to upgrade your fine Buick to keep up with modern traffic. I live in a busy part of Florida and NEED to keep up with traffic unless you want to be run over. Most drivers are not tolerant of slow drivers around here. I will probably do a write up on the sequence of steps to make it easier for the next guy. Thanks for the concern, Jim. I did this six years ago. Used a 3.36 to 1. Dropped the third gear RPM by about 650. Runs all day at 70 mph if I want. Real slow speed, below 10 mph harder to do. Rpm's go to zero! I have had it to 92 mph. Chickened out on pushing to 100. SOMEDAY! Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Jim this is promising to be a good tech thread on swapping these rear ends. I have changed the title to better fit the subject and moved it from Buy/Sell to PreWar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 That sounds like the better way. Don't know how to change to the other forum but let's do it that way. I'll e-mail other questions about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 15, 2017 Author Share Posted July 15, 2017 Some body did a swap and used the front and rear flanges of the torque tube. They offered to let members of aaca use them if they wanted. Putting the 'new' drive shaft on to the pinion shaft may go easier with those flanges. I think my hydraulic press would have to be raised a foot or so to get the shafts in line to press together. Just looking ahead for solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Jim, below are a couple of tools I bought many, many years ago when I was naive enough to think I had the smarts enough to do repairs on one of my Roadmaster's rear ends.You are more than welcome to use them if needed. The Snap-On tool is a differential adjusting wrench for Buicks. It is for adjusting backlash and bearing preload. The Kent Moore is a pinion rear bearing spacer tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Jim Nelson said: Some body did a swap and used the front and rear flanges of the torque tube. They offered to let members of aaca use them if they wanted. Putting the 'new' drive shaft on to the pinion shaft may go easier with those flanges. I think my hydraulic press would have to be raised a foot or so to get the shafts in line to press together. Just looking ahead for solutions. That would be Willie. I will invite him to join us here. He is the one who brought me to my senses about me having the smarts to do rear end repair when he said something to the affect of he would rather rebuild 5 Dynaflows than one rear end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 23 minutes ago, Jim Nelson said: I'll e-mail other questions about this. Just ask here, Jim, I would likely mess something up if I get in the middle of the conversation. Let me know if I can help with pictures though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 1 hour ago, MrEarl said: 1 hour ago, Jim Nelson said: Some body did a swap and used the front and rear flanges of the torque tube. They offered to let members of aaca use them if they wanted. Putting the 'new' drive shaft on to the pinion shaft may go easier with those flanges. I think my hydraulic press would have to be raised a foot or so to get the shafts in line to press together. Just looking ahead for solutions. That would be Willie. I will invite him to join us here. He is the one who brought me to my senses about me having the smarts to do rear end repair when he said something to the affect of he would rather rebuild 5 Dynaflows than one rear end. The driveshaft removal/installation tool is detailed on my website: http://www.buickrestorer.com under tech tips or specifically http://www.buickrestorer.com/driveshaftool.html and the tool is available for loan to BCA members...PM if needed. I long ago determined that the differential bearing preload tool is made of 'unobtainium' so I made a tool to fit the holes in the ring and carefully turned it that way. Willie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdarrunt Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 My 37 Special runs 2000rpm at 61mph and is not a pooch on acceleration with 2.73 rear gearing. Great around the flat lands in this part of Texas but not so much so in the hills of Missouri. Has a 263 straight 8 that is stock except for mechanical lifters. Really like Jim's overdrive set up but since wife needs an automatic I have 4.11 ring and pinion in the trunk and a 2004R waiting on the shelf. This will give a 2.88 final drive but with a "kick down" when needed. Very easy to stay in the left lane and not be in any ones way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 8 hours ago, MrEarl said: Jim this is promising to be a good tech thread on swapping these rear ends. I have changed the title to better fit the subject and moved it from Buy/Sell to PreWar. There are several articles on changing diff ratio's that can be downloaded from http://www.1937and1938buicks.com/The-Torque-Tube/The-Torque-Tube.htm Several different methods. I have indexed these into a excel file 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buicknutty Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 Jim, I have to say that I kind of "chickened out" and let a shop do the actual swap. They just changed the "pumpkin", and didn't have to do all of the other adjustments, only the pinion. Like Ben said, it won't run so slow at idle, like before, but I think that it is a satisfactory trade off. Just like in Jim's neck of the woods, the traffic runs very fast on some highways, and I too feel that one will get run over running at the speed limit here. In Ontario it is 100 KPH, about 62, and it doesn't matter where you are, that's the maximum. The only trouble is that most traffic runs at 120-130, about 75-80 MPH. I try to avoid those highways esp with the '41, but there's times when I need to use them. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 Ben Bruce, Using a Jeep Cherokee clutch is nice. Will it also work on 37/38 flywheels ? Trying to save a buck. I can get my disc rebuilt locally but I want a new pressure plate to finish it off.. My 38's clutch is smooth and my 37 is not. So with me changing the third member over to a 3.4 (1954) and things are apart, its time to smooth things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 27, 2017 Author Share Posted July 27, 2017 Ben Bruce, I hear that you have used a Jeep clutch on your Buick. 320 or 248 engine ? I am taking my 37 apart to put in the 3.4 rear. While its apart, its time to change the clutch. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 (edited) Jim, I did. Small series, a 263 actually. Clutch is a 10" disc. Name on the box is Power Torque. K 1890-05. Bought from O'Reillys. Fit like a glove. And has good wheel spinning burn out performance. Price is just less than a hundred and a half if memory serves. Ben Edited July 27, 2017 by Ben Bruce aka First Born (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 27, 2017 Author Share Posted July 27, 2017 The 248 and 263 are identical. I have a 263 in my 38 and now have a 37. My 37 is being prepped to have a '54' third member installed. What you are saying is this p/n is for both the disc and pressure plate ?? While it's 'open' it's time to do the clutch. I'll look in the tranny and make sure it's good. Synchro' seem fine. I might replace the input bearing. The factory bearing is a shielded version. Designed to return the oil back into the case. A new bearing with the '2-rs' nomenclature is better. It will not allow oil to seep into the return channel as the factory designed. No oil in the clutch area. (Owned a bearing store for 18 years---) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 You are correct on both engines being the same in this instance. Yes, clutch and pressure plate in the set. The only thing that comes with it that does not work is the clutch alignment tool. Apparently the Jeep uses a larger pilot bearing. What is "2-rs"? The hopped up 263 in my '50 is great. I am happy with it. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 27, 2017 Author Share Posted July 27, 2017 Long story short: "2-rs" is the definition of the type of covering over the ball bearings. Bearings come in three versions today. Back in the 'thirties and fourties and probably the 50's, there was only two versions. "OPEN''" and "SHIELDED" versions. Open versions had the balls visable and needed clean lubricant. The Shielded versions had a thin metal cover over the balls. This type provided some protection for stuff floating around. Our 30's and later.versions had shields from protection. If you look at the input bearing in our tranny's, they had a shield on one side (side facing the clutch) and open on the side facing all the gears. The shield will let oil seep through the small gaps. The engineers captured the seepage and funneled it back into the main oil supply. This was a constant source of oil in the clutch area. Not good but that was all they had. Along came a rubber seal that covered the ball area. The OD of the seal was tight to the outer race. The ID of the seal contacts the inner race like a windshield wiper. Touches but not attached to the inner race. This type keeps any trash from getting into the bearing. SO, if you are rebuilding your tranny, definitely use the '2-rs' version. Remove the seal on the side that is exposed to the tranny oil. This will keep any oil from getting into the clutch area. The seal is easily taken off the bearing on the side you want exposed to the gear lub. This is a short version on bearings. I owned a bearing store for 18 years and learned a lot. Engineering manuals for technical issues etc. If you have any questions on what to use etc, just e-mail me at "oldbuickjim@gmail.com". Phone also works.... I don't like re-inventing an issue. Love the option on clutches. I can order it locally and if a problem, they are down the road a piece. Anything to keep our great Buicks on the road. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Worstell Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Jim Nelson........In your 38....did you use an OD set-up from Lloyd Young ( near Columbus Ohio ) ? Did you retain the governor/kick-down elements ......or did you delete them and go to a more so "manual" system ? When will you publish a write-up of how you are doing this ? Jack Worstell jlwmaster@aol.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 Hi Jack, I used Lloyd Young's system. I like his simplified system. I set my system up to use as a traveling car. First, what are you going to use it on? I have a 263 engine. Reason- I was the factory horse power. I live in Florida. When I bought my Buick, i invisioned using it year around,. So putting AC in was a no brainer, Next, I have friends from here (Tampa/St. Pete Fl) to Tenn, to Indiana and into the Carolinas. So having a dependable cruising car was important. Next, the 38 Buick had a standard rear ratio of 4.44-1. Nice for 45 - 50 mph. I would get run over here with that. An over drive gives you a 30% rpm reduction. Thus my OD ratio becomes a 3.11-1 ratio. I use the original 3 speed to get going and about 35/38 mph I hit the OD actuating button and it goes into OD. I now cruise 65 mph at 2450 rpm all day. Using a 4.11 rear ratio would be acceptable in my would. I personally think a 3.9 would be to low. This would be a problem if you were using a sedan with a big load. Just my humble opinion. I don't like pushing these old engines over 3000 rpm. Check the factory curves on torque and horse power. Life time gets shorter the further you go into the maximums. I have a 38 coupe with OD and now a 37 coupe. Different strategy with this one. I am in the middle of converting the stock rear (4.44-1) to a 1954 3.4 rear ratio. This will let me cruise close to the 38 coupe with out using OD. However you only have a three speed. Not as flexible as the OD system but less to fail. The OD system is strong as the bull as it was around for around for 20 plus years so it is dependable. There is a personal reason to go with the 3.4 rear. I promised not to make changes to this car. It's been restored to a very high quality. Very pretty as it's color is "Sudan Blue". (1937 color). I can send you a pix and you will understand. But it won't drive safely without getting the cruise speed up at least 60 mph. That is even low in today's world. Long story what and why. I have pix of Lloyd system as he let me take pix when they did mine. It will make things very understandable. Lots of details. (Just the old engineering back ground- got to know why---). E-mail me at oldbuickjim@gmail.com. Details - details-------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 Jack, I have written about the OD in my 38 Coupe. I will look it over and see if I have enough info to help. With the built pix and what it looks like in the car, it might be ok. This was done in ? 2014 I think with out looking it up. Time flys where you get ?old?. Lloyd is getting along in years but I saw him back in March. Long story, but a very dependable supplier of OD's. Glen is his builder there in Circleville Ohio where his shop is and where your system would be built. Lots a details I can fill you in if you go his way. There is another guy out in Nevada in casino heaven. He has a 38 sedan that was done a few years ago like mine. He goes into some detail as he removed and replaced it in his drive way. UGH !! Loves it like I do. You won't go wrong with lloyds system..Remember the most thing is KISS and follow that principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted August 2, 2017 Author Share Posted August 2, 2017 Jack, I have written about the OD in my 38 Coupe. I will look it over and see if I have enough info to help. With the built pix and what it looks like in the car, it might be ok. This was done in ? 2014 I think with out looking it up. Time flys where you get ?old?. Lloyd is getting along in years but I saw him back in March. Long story, but a very dependable supplier of OD's. Glen is his builder there in Circleville Ohio where his shop is and where your system would be built. Lots a details I can fill you in if you go his way. There is another guy out in Nevada in casino heaven. He has a 38 sedan that was done a few years ago like mine. He goes into some detail as he removed and replaced it in his drive way. UGH !! Loves it like I do. You won't go wrong with lloyds system..Remember the most thing is KISS and follow that principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted August 2, 2017 Author Share Posted August 2, 2017 Bruce, I got my clutch, pressure plate,throw out bearing and 'disc alignment tool. Nice package. I got my 'members discount, military discount and ended up with taxes around $135. Nice deal even if I had no other discounts. Beats Bob's if you need one. Now to scuff up the surface on the flywheel. No I'm not going thru the crazy requirements to remove the flywheel. God, what a bad design. At least the 320 engine flywheel hook up was done right. Thank you 1995 Jeep Cherokee for having an good replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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