Back at that 1930 Rolls Royce.

[Dandy Dave]

Yep, Back working on that 1930 Rolls Royce. Been here for more years than I can think. The former owner passed away with out having me getting it running. Ended up as part of his estate and still stayed in my barn. One of my friends wanted to rescue it and I told him who to talk to. Long story short it was acquired and the rest is history. It is going back together. The head I rescued years ago from the welding/ machine shop that it was at as the former owner said he did not have the funds to pick it up at the time. I fronted the money just to keep it with the car. Good thing. The motor is now going back together as the new owner wants to get it done and have it original. Not for nothing but I chased a lot of people away that just wanted to buy it and drop a 350 chevy motor in it. I would tell them this aint the car for you. There's the door. Never worked on anything with a crank quite like this. It is hollow and has tapered plugs on every crank and rod journal. Crank was well worn. About .005 worn and about the same out of round. Had the rod and main bearings done at Harts Machine in Cecil, Ohio. Also been working with Tim at Jamison-Denning motors helping us also with parts and advice when needed,  Dandy Dave! 

[A. Ballard 35R]

Great that you were able to assist, persevere and get this car back on the road,

[JV Puleo]

All the RR cranks are like that  (or at least the pre-war cranks. I've never worked on a post war crank). Since you have it out, if you haven't already, all the plugs should come out and all the passages cleaned. That was a real problem with them in pre-detergent oil days. They could get filled with sludge. The oil pressure would appear fine, but little oil was getting to the bearings. I imagine you've figured all this out so I apologize if I'm preaching to the choir. I probably have a manual here somewhere... PM me if you would like to borrow one. I presume it's a 20-25.

[mike6024]

 

2 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

Never worked on anything with a crank quite like this. It is hollow and has tapered plugs on every crank and rod journal.

 

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

all the plugs should come out and all the passages cleaned.

 

Do the plugs have to be drilled out, and then new ones made?

 

Here's how an Alfa Romeo crank is, aluminum plugs press fit, you pound them in and then supposedly "stake" them in place, though I don't know what that means, maybe hit them with a punch?

 

And you can also tap the holes and use a set screw with thread locker (LOCKTITE)

 

Most crankshafts are "cross-drilled" to carry pressurized oil to the bearings. The only way to create a gallery through the crankshaft is by drilling it. The "holes" were access holes for the drilling, as the gallery interconnects within the crankshaft. The drill access "holes" were factory plugged with aluminum plugs. With Alfa's, it has been found that sometimes, not often, these aluminum plugs will come out and allow the pressurizes oil to escape from an unintended area. On Alfa engine rebuilding, it becomes an optional procedure to drill out the aluminum plugs, and tap the drill access hole for a screw-in type plug as shown above. The plugs are usually sealed with Loctite Red, preventing them from unscrewing. To remove them for gallery cleaning, heat needs to be applied, directly to the cap plug, with a torch. They then can be removed. Threading for these in a hardened crankshaft, can be difficult, and break taps. The easiest way is to grind through the hardening with a die grinder before attempting to tap. The hardening is usually about .020" thick. Even then, this requires some patience, as the crankshaft is still a hard forging. The reason this is not done by factories is a matter of time and labor. Also, for most applications, the OEM aluminum plugs are adequate.

[JV Puleo]

No... The plugs I'm referring to are aluminum, something like the head of a valve, lapped to fit the hole in the center of each journal - which is quite large. They are held in by a long bolt that passes through both – or at least they were on the Silver Ghost I did many years ago. I don't remember the passages through the arms of the crank being a problem... the presumption being that centrifugal force caused the sludge to accumulate in the pins but not in the passages that led to them.

 

"Staking"... you hit the interface between the plug and the crank with a punch, in perhaps two or three places around each plug. The terms is used in gunsmithing as well. It's sort of the "pre-loctite" solution to keeping things in place.

Edited June 8, 2017 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

Yup. They're bolted in. Yep. had them out. And yup, loaded with sludge they were. The one in the photo is on the flywheel end. Most of them look like the one with the holes in it. Slightly larger on the main journals. Smaller for the rod journals. The exception being the very front of the crank and the flywheel end. These engines are sure not for anyone with little experience to work on. About twice as many little parts and bunches of little bolts and screws than any Ford or Chevy. Dandy Dave!   

[Dandy Dave]

8 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

All the RR cranks are like that  (or at least the pre-war cranks. I've never worked on a post war crank). Since you have it out, if you haven't already, all the plugs should come out and all the passages cleaned. That was a real problem with them in pre-detergent oil days. They could get filled with sludge. The oil pressure would appear fine, but little oil was getting to the bearings. I imagine you've figured all this out so I apologize if I'm preaching to the choir. I probably have a manual here somewhere... PM me if you would like to borrow one. I presume it's a 20-25.

Yup. a 20-25.

[JV Puleo]

Excellent! The odd thing is that of the half dozen I've taken apart (mostly Ghosts and PIs), I've never found a sludge build up but the late Frank Cook warned me about them years ago so I've always checked. I had a 20-25 many years ago that was a very well-worn car but even it didn't have any goop in the crank pins. I think it must have been a reflection of how often the oil was changed.

You're right too... they aren't an engine for a first-time amateur mechanic although that is exactly what I was when I started on them.

 

jp

 

[JACK M]

I had a Bentley several years ago the had about five times the moving parts than were necessary.

Finally was cured of British vehicles.

[Willie Wurke]

My 1952 model with the 4.5 litre engine also uses the plugs. They are shorter and look like valve heads and the thru bolts have nuts that are locked with cotter keys.

The crankshaft is nitrided chrome moly steel.  Has more ring to it than a church bell!   Had no wear at all on shaft or bearings

 

FYI: This engine design started life in 1919 with a 3"bore and 4.5 inch stroke and 190 cid.  It ended 37 years later after growing to 490 cid.

During that time it had various valve arrangements: DOHC, F head, and valve in head. Horsepower increased from 53 to 215.

The final version had a 3.75 bore. Since the cylinder bore center to center dimension could not be increased; due to insufficient coolant between cylinders

R R had to develop a new engine. Thus the V-8 was born!

 

This engine history from: THE HISTORY OF A DIMENSION  by S. H. GRYLLS,MA

                                   The'' dimension " is 4.150 inches and couldn't be changed due to main bearing locations

[Dandy Dave]

11 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Excellent! The odd thing is that of the half dozen I've taken apart (mostly Ghosts and PIs), I've never found a sludge build up but the late Frank Cook warned me about them years ago so I've always checked. I had a 20-25 many years ago that was a very well-worn car but even it didn't have any goop in the crank pins. I think it must have been a reflection of how often the oil was changed.

You're right too... they aren't an engine for a first-time amateur mechanic although that is exactly what I was when I started on them.

 

jp

 

Yes JV, I don't think the oil was changed in this car very often. It was plugged. So bad so that I was not sure how it was getting oil??? As far as wrenching goes, Might as well start with a high end car if you have the patients and fussy attitude of getting it right. Most don't so you are a special breed to get it and get it right. Dandy Dave!

 

[Dandy Dave]

9 hours ago, JACK M said:

I had a Bentley several years ago the had about five times the moving parts than were necessary.

Finally was cured of British vehicles.

Could have had one real cheep one time. LOL..I think I now know why. Dandy Dave! 

[wayne sheldon]

I will try to keep this short.

Another possible reason why some engines may have a bunch of sludge, while others did not, would be the choice of oil used. The chemical base for oils are different from different parts of the world. Paraffin based oils have superior lubricating qualities, however, they tend to build up much more sludge than the more common asphalt (or ash) based oils. The many years where this was a problem included the '30s (when paraffin oils became more common in the marketplace (due to the depression and producers looking for new markets), through the '40s, '50s, and '60s. After that, refining technologies improved, and the sludge build-up became less of a problem.

Another little known issue, was that the asphalt and paraffin oils in those days should not be mixed together. They had a reaction to each other that resulted in even worse sludge build-up. This was seldom discussed, unless you knew someone that took advanced automotive technology and chemistry courses.(I happened to know a couple people like that when I was a child). This was something that generally did not become a problem until a car was old enough that few people cared about the sludge. Often, by then, owners were throwing in whatever was cheap or handy, and the mixture could get really nasty, especially if the oil wasn't changed regularly.

One of the first engines I ever reworked, was a 216 Chevrolet that had thrown a rod bearing. When we pulled the pan off the block? The sludge was literally about an inch thick all over the inside (it was almost jello-like). The crank and rods had carved out pathways where they ran close to the block or pan. I can see how that stuff could fill the hollows of a Rolls Royce crankshaft. And clearly a good reason why they should be checked.

 

Neat car Dandy Dave! I hope to see more pictures of it as it goes together. Thank you for sharing this.

[brasscarguy]

A bit of caution if you are planning to have the crank balanced. Due to the size and design the crank will flex if you balance it with supports on the outer ends. You will need to make a fixture to support the center from flexing. I know from experience.

 

just sayin'

 

brasscarguy(S205PR)

[Dandy Dave]

Making progress. Almost ready to install pistons and rods. 

[Mike36]

On June 8, 2017 at 6:55 AM, JV Puleo said:

No... The plugs I'm referring to are aluminum, something like the head of a valve, lapped to fit the hole in the center of each journal - which is quite large. They are held in by a long bolt that passes through both – or at least they were on the Silver Ghost I did many years ago. I don't remember the passages through the arms of the crank being a problem... the presumption being that centrifugal force caused the sludge to accumulate in the pins but not in the passages that led to them.

 

"Staking"... you hit the interface between the plug and the crank with a punch, in perhaps two or three places around each plug. The terms is used in gunsmithing as well. It's sort of the "pre-loctite" solution to keeping things in place.

Use a sharp "center" punch when staking.

[JV Puleo]

Nice job. The block was "stove enameled" black. I would guess that any tough, shiny black engine paint would be appropriate. Also, check the ends of the copper  tubes that run through the water passages. These sometimes leak. They were an odd diameter ... the block itself was machined with a slight chamfer at the top and bottom and the tubes pressed, on the ends, with a special tool that expanded the ends. It was a bit like setting boiler tubes. If they are tight, I would not touch them but under no circumstances should the blocks be "decked"... that might well cut off the expanded end of the tube. I'm guessing you've noticed all this...

 

Back in my RR days, I had special tubing drawn to replace them... it is not a job I'd like to try again.

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Dave :

Glad to hear from you and good to see the RR saga is coming to a satisfactory conclusion.

Larry

[Dandy Dave]

Pistons and Rods installed. She has been bored .030 over. The owner is going to take care of painting it. He has me doing the "Smart Work" while he calls himself the Grunt Man. Dandy Dave! 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Dandy Dave (see edit history)

[Dandy Dave]

On 6/22/2017 at 11:07 AM, JV Puleo said:

Nice job. The block was "stove enameled" black. I would guess that any tough, shiny black engine paint would be appropriate. Also, check the ends of the copper  tubes that run through the water passages. These sometimes leak. They were an odd diameter ... the block itself was machined with a slight chamfer at the top and bottom and the tubes pressed, on the ends, with a special tool that expanded the ends. It was a bit like setting boiler tubes. If they are tight, I would not touch them but under no circumstances should the blocks be "decked"... that might well cut off the expanded end of the tube. I'm guessing you've noticed all this...

 

Back in my RR days, I had special tubing drawn to replace them... it is not a job I'd like to try again.

 

 

Yes. Left the oil tube in as the soldered still looked good with no leaks. Clean them out with lacquer thinner and carburetor cleaner until the liquid came out clear. Dandy Dave!