Spark Timing Issue 1953 Chrysler Windsor

[Spinneyhill]

1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

yes I found a valve stuck open.  As mentioned this is old car new to me. Now I need to figure out how to tackle this.  Back to more research in the manual.

Tips are welcome about tackling this problem. Thx.

 

I have been through this with Dodge 8. I didn't want to remove the head etc., it is such a pain in the tripe.

 

So I made a wedge out of two 50 mm long pieces of heavy 50 mm angle bolted together and with one end filed to a wedge. I needed this shape, sort of a lazy S, to be able to reach in. I then pushed the tapered wedge into the valve spring just above the bottom and turned the engine over. The wedge adds a bit to the valve spring and closes the valve. While the valve was open, I used an oil bottle with a nozzle, with a wee hose shoved onto the nozzle, to feel around in the plug hole to find the stem, them put a few drops of 50-50 acetone and ATF on the stem and continued turning the engine over. It took a while, with a few oilings over a few weeks, but gradually it came easier to close the valve then it finally closed on its own. Yay!

 

Before pulling anything off, look at a cylinder with both valves closed and see if the distributor rotor is near that cylinder's contact, i.e. check valve timing. Check several as you rotate the crankshaft.

 

If the timing is correct based on checking several cylinders, it sounds like the next job is to remove the head to see what is going on. That will be fun, leaning in over the fenders.

[keithb7]

Just pulled the head. This car is by far the easiest car I have ever worked on. So quick to remove stuff.

Something was going on in the rear two cylinders. The rear 3 valves are coated with something interesting. Not sure what it is. #5 intake and #6 exhaust,  adjacent seem to be in the worst shape.

Could it be build up on the valves from burning coolant? Its white-ish under the carbon when I attempt to scrape it off at valve. It does not appear to be carbon. #6 exhaust is not seating either.

The head looked pretty good. I will hot tank it and check it for straight. I can't see any clear signs of leakage through the head gasket, but I am no expert.

 

 

 

 

 

If possible I would like to attempt to do this repair with block still in the car. Is this possible? Maybe a patch repair for the summer, full rebuild this winter? I have bid on the valve spring compressor mentioned above.  Compression readings are low all across, but would rather not do full rebuild at this time.

Pull all valves?  Test for sealing , try some lapping compound on the remaining good ones? New valves at rear where damage is seen? All new springs for all valves?

 

The manual states to remove RF tire and inner fender access panel. Then I can access the valves and tappets from below. Thanks.  Keith

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[keithb7]

 I have been thinking about this tonight. The car was new to me. First time I pull the plugs, this is the result. The previous owner was elderly. I have been going over areas of the car and seeing where he missed some things. 1 missing exhaust manifold nut. I missing nut on exhaust pipe to manifold bolt. Loose carb mounting nuts. Etc. No big deal, just stuff he missed. I might be lucky to still have his skills at his age. Thinking about when I pulled the plugs: The Chrysler L6 has a pretty deep dish cut into the head where to plugs thread in. Maybe the previous owner dropped a small nut or screw and could not find it. Maybe it fell in the dished area of the head, around the spark plug? It may have been sitting in there for some time. I pull the plugs from one side, leaning over a fender. It drops in the hole, unknown to me. First time I turn over the engine after putting the plugs back in, the part that dropped in, gets under the valve and then it bends. Could have happened. I will take a good look around in the manifolds and see if I can find anything. Cylinder 6 at 0 psi? I can see that the intake valve is not seated well, and not sealing. It may have been leaking for some time. One of these valves might have been my ticking exhaust noise culprit. I suspect he bent valve was the final nail in the coffin here. I will proceed to pull all valves and clean them up. Try and lap the seats for a good fit. I am betting this will put my compression numbers back up to a better level. Parts to repair are ordered.

Like

 · Reply · Just now · Edited

Edited June 8, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Can you measure the ledge around the top of the cylinders?

 

While you have it apart, it is easy to take out the pistons and check the rings, bearings, piston clearances, bore taper etc.. New rings might be enough, with the cleaned up valves and cylinder ledge removed. I did mine in-car.

[Restorer32]

You have an engine that is screaming for a full rebuild.

[JACK M]

I would take a good look at that #5 piston, It looks like something has been running up and down the cylinder above the top of the rings.

Note the difference in appearance just below the carbon build up between the two cylinders. especially visible in the first photo.

[keiser31]

3 hours ago, JACK M said:

I would take a good look at that #5 piston, It looks like something has been running up and down the cylinder above the top of the rings.

Note the difference in appearance just below the carbon build up between the two cylinders. especially visible in the first photo.

Yep....possibility there of broken piston ring(s).

[keiser31]

10 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

You have an engine that is screaming for a full rebuild.

I could not agree more. If you have the money for parts, the rebuild on these is a breeze. The parts or out there to be had. If you just patch it up and run it, more damage could occur.

Edited June 8, 2017 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[keithb7]

I won't disagree and I will rebuild it completely. Just hoping not to have to do it right away this summer. I have some big financial commitments coming up.  I need some time to squirrel some money away for a full proper rebuild. I plan to do it myself. I agree there is a risk of further damage by doing a repair. No hard driving planned this summer. Some local car shows in town 5 miles away was my plan.

 

I was planning to pull the motor out this winter for a rear crank seal, oil pan gasket and torque oil transfer tube o-rings. I'll just plan to go all in and do a full rebuild.  Either I patch it now, or park it until I start the rebuild in November. Hoping I don't have to do that.

 

Edited June 9, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[keithb7]

Valve job done and car is running well with plenty more power and torque. I am not burning any oil that I can see. The car is running very smooth and the performance increase is very good.

 

Before and after valve set Compression Test Results:

 

Before Valve Job, Dry compression:

1 - 95 psi

2 - 70 psi

3-  95 psi

4 - 85 psi

5 - 85 psi

6 - 0 psi

 

After Valve Job Dy Compression:

1. 100 psi

2. 100 psi

3. 105 psi

4. 105 psi

5. 105 psi

6. 95 psi

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Xclnt result. Did you measure the ridges in the top of the cylinders?

[Rusty_OToole]

95 - 105 PSI compression is plenty to be going along with. I think a brand new engine is no more than 120, due to low compression ratio.

 

I know pictures can be tricky but your cylinders look like they were honed, with horizontal scratches. A typical old cylinder should be polished like a mirror. This suggests your engine was rebuilt not too many miles in the past.

 

At this point I suggest you enjoy a few long drives. Go out on a weekend and put 100 miles on it. Go to a car show, picnic or what you like. Drive it for 500 or 1000 miles and check compression again. To help things along you could add some Rislone or Bardahl to the oil and gas.

 

It is possible the only thing wrong was lack of use which led to the valves sticking. Flatheads seem to be more prone to this than OHV engines. It is also possible the rings are a bit sticky and not sealing 100%.  Some break in miles should set things right.

[keithb7]

Thanks folks. #6 intake valve was stuck open. Tappet was fine. All valve sufaces were pretty worn. 

 

As mentioned earlier I did a patch job here to enjoy the rest of the driving season. The repair turned out quite well. A few valve guides has a little more wear than others, but I left them all in. Seem to be no issue as I don't see any oil buring. 

 

I did not measure the top ridge. I did not want to go down a rabbit hole of repairs this summer. The ridge is not excessive. I'd guess .005 or so thick on some. Others pretty much almost nil. I remember my old 225 slant 6 in my '74 Dart when I was a teenager. It had quite a ridge when I tore into it by 1987. 

 

The car is getting regular use by my son and I. Pulling rad this week to flush it. Temp drop from top tank to bottom tank is about 20 to 25 F.  I think I'd like to see more cooling there. 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[keithb7]

Update. 1,000 miles on the engine now since the valve grind. It's running very good. I am enjoying the last few cruises of the season before I park the Chrysler for the coming winter. I don't see oil burning, unless I am in bull low using engine compression as braking going down a steep hill. I believe this is due to a couple of worn valve guides.  Normal use, I am not burning oil as far as I can tell.

 

It seems my decision to just do a valve grind here was a good call for me. The engine is not picky. It starts and runs great. I pulled the rad, flushed it and the block. I toured in 100 degree weather this summer in a car rally. Plenty of steep hills and low speed. No overheating.  

 

Knowing what I know now, and have learned from this experience, I recommend folks remember to stick with the basics. Spark at right time, compression, and fuel. This is all you really need to troubleshoot an engine. In the end for me, the compression results found my problem. Throwing spark-plugs, cap, condenser, wires, points, etc. at it was just hoping I'd hit the problem. It was not all in waste however as I did end up with a well tuned, reliable car with good compression again. I suspect it will be at least of couple more seasons of cruising as it sits today, before I get into the engine again. Thanks for those to chipped in along the way. Cheers. - Keith

Edited October 25, 2017 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[dictator27]

On 07/06/2017 at 5:42 AM, Curti said:

Why does the throttle need to be wide open?

Unrestricted air flow for more accurate compression readings

 

[Guest SaddleRider]

Assuming this fellow has confirmed all aspects of the car's ignition system are functioning properly....I'd suspect bad gas.  I'd take the carb. off....just shake it &  flip it upside down... take out the idle-jet-screws and blow compressed air in there....see what comes out.

[Grimy]

Pete, my reading of the OP's most recent post is that the car is running well after a valve job plus tuneup parts.  I agree with blowing out the idle mixture needle orifice, but there's only one on this car.  And no need to remove carb to do it unless one is putting a kit in the carb.