JV Puleo

My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

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6 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

I'm still looking for a B&S Vertical mill.

 

Why is the Universal "not" doing what a vertical "typically" does?  Just asking as I have neither.  

 

I use a horizontal, as it was  $75, and I get by.

 

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I'm not sure I understand...

oh... yes, it does do what a vertical miller does but the quill doesn't move and the clearance under the quill, above the table, is limited. That is why I was using the drill press to drill holes in the sheave... but the drill press has it's limitations and isn't really intended to mount the rotary table. If you only had one machine, a horizontal with a vertical head is easily the best choice, which is why I wanted it in the first place. Usually, I can drill, or move a cutter down into the work, by raising the table but there are a few operations where that doesn't work. In fact, I have one coming up milling the dog teeth on the hub

 

Most of the time this is satisfactory which is why I can wait until the right vertical comes along. I have limited space, and this already does 90% of what I would like to be able to do, so I'm not going to settle for anything less than the type of machine I want. I can't pay much... I need another "scrap price" machine. Besides - I sort of "collect" machine tools. I have 3 more lathes, two of which date from before the Civil War.

 

Edited by JV Puleo
removed a redundant word (see edit history)
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Here's an example... I took about .040 of the top of this crankcase. This engine threw a rod and smashed the case on the camshaft side. The owner of the car had it welded back together. The welding job was fantastic, but, of course, nothing is really in line and there was weld on the top. I had to take off about .040 in order to get it flat again and it barely fit in the machine. This was the easy part... the difficult part was line boring the camshaft journals.

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I should add, this is not the Mitchell. I don't do outside work as a rule but this is something I undertook to help a friend with after none of the regular engine rebuilders would touch it. It is still a touch-and-go proposition but, so far, everything has worked.

Edited by JV Puleo
added a clarification (see edit history)
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Thanks for the quick tour of the shop though it left me with a serious case of mill envy. ;)

I wish I could throw the Hendey bearings in a mill and take .015 off each of them instead of driving up to the machine shop where my guy will be slammed and it will take a month to do 20 minutes of work. 

I'm hoping to find a horizontal with a vertical head but I'd take a decent vertical right now.

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The head stock bearings? What needs to be trimmed... I can probably do it and send them right back.

For the other readers... I know Luv2Wrench and have already modified the bull gear  on his Hendey. I'm always proselytizing for "do your own restoration work." If I can, I will help anyone who wants to learn how to make parts to save early cars.

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I think we've sorted out Luv2Wrench's lathe...

While I'm waiting for the end mill to finish the sheave I got working on the big timing gear. Actually, I'm doing 3 jobs at once, I'm also making a complicated center camshaft bearing for a friend's motor but that job has gone sideways so many times I decided to scrap what I'd done and start over... part of the price paid for being an amateur.

 

Here's my drawing of the camshaft timing gear:

 

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And here are the two original gears I have. I had to literally turn the area holding the tapered pin off one of them to get it off the camshaft. I have two cams and two gears, none of which are usable.

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This brings us to the question of just what do I want to accomplish. There are a few items that have to be taken into consideration. I want a car that has the ability to hold a speed of 45 to 50 without feeling like it's flying apart. I doubt that, in it's "from the factory" state, it could do that. Many of these early cars were literally "tuned down." Low speed reliability was what they wanted... often they are under carbureted and the excessively heavy recriprocating parts made serious vibration at anything above 30 - 35 miles per hour a real issue. While the value of balanced engine parts was understood, the ability to balance the components was in it's infancy. Expensive cars (Simplex, Locomobile, Rolls-Royce etc.) used "machined all over parts" like rods and cranks that, because they were made to close tolerances, were automatically very close to being balanced. Cheap cars didn't and the public that was buying them didn't know and didn't care. The result of all this is that the basic engine is often capable of much smoother and better performance than it originally had. A friend of mine is making the camshaft. I've left the decisions on the exact timing of it to him as he is far more knowledgeable than I am. But... we can't be absolutely certain what we will get when so many things have been changed... timing is effected by fuel (which was very poor in 1910) and compression (which I am raising, though not very much). I though It would be a good idea to make the camshaft timing gear slightly adjustable so I've adopted another design from P.M. Heldt's 1911 Engineering Manual. The timing gear will now be mounted on a steel hub (that will be permanently secured to the cam shaft) and will have 3 radial slots so the gear can actually be moved slightly in relation to the crankshaft and magneto drive gears.

 

The first step is the hub... the finished size of the flange will be 3-1/2"... the center portion 1-1/2" with a 1" hole for the cam itself. Here is the block of steel... it is 12L14, a very easily machinable alloy that I use as much as possible. It's only real drawback is that it can't be effectively welded. It isn't as strong as many other alloys but, compared to the wrought iron that was often used in period, it's plenty strong enough and none of the parts I make from it have to be welded.

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Turning it down from 3-1/2 to 1-1/2 is tedious but not difficult. The only trick is making the flange, which has to be absolutely perpendicular to the hub. This is my little device for that, a block of steel clamped to the lathe bed. I use the power feed until the saddle has almost reaches it, loosen the clutch and move the saddle with the hand wheel up to the stop. You have to pay attention but it is very effective.

 

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I've now turned it down to about 1.7"... about .200 larger than the finished size so it is time to attach the dial indicator.

 

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In this case, I hit it dead on... with a little polishing, the finished hub is .0015 to .002 undersize which is perfect. The gear (with a 1-1/2" reamed hole in the center) will slip on with no noticeable play.

 

The last step is to cock the point of the lathe tool sightly towards the flange and, using the hand wheel, very gently feed it into the flange a few thousandths. Then, with the power cross feed, it is withdrawn across the face of the flange. Now the inside face of the flange and the hub are as close to perfectly perpendicular as the machine can make them.

 

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I'll make the second hub tomorrow... maybe the end mill will come in and I can finish the sheave but otherwise I'll keep working on these gears.

 

 

Edited by JV Puleo
better wording (see edit history)
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6 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Actually, I'm doing 3 jobs at once, I'm also making a complicated center camshaft bearing for a friend's motor but that job has gone sideways so many times I decided to scrap what I'd done and start over... part of the price paid for being an amateur.

Joe, this is all part of the journey to become another "Ben", but in your profession.. "Profession" denoting the difference between that and an Amateur.

 

I did get your published book on your life's vintage journeys that you kindly sent a copy of to me... I am still in the skimming mode, but wanted to tell of the picture and your story of the Chrysler CM Roadster purchased by your friend so many decades ago, that you mentioned was found for sale at a Raynham, Mass swap... I instantly recognized it as the same car for sale back then, at the "Old Taunton Mass" huge swap at the old track...The guy who's estate I have been working with for a few years, he was standing right next to it trying to get a cheaper deal on it there to flip it... I did not stop to check it out as our personalities did not mix then, and I did not care to listen to his belligerence yet again, while "negotiating"....even though I had a HUGE interest in that exact era of Mopar open cars..

 

Great machining thread so far, carry on!

 

.

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Now that is a coincidence.... especially as my friend Paul still has it. Last Fall, he sold another CM6 to a gentleman from Oklahoma and, as part of the deal, the buyer is rebuilding the engine for the roadster. We'll be getting it back later this summer so, despite being slow, progress is being made. I'm also reminded of your Nash — it has exactly the same problem with the final drive ratio, it is screaming at 50. Paul would like to get it to be a little more comfortable at that speed, so he bought a 2nd rear end — I forget what it's from ('48 dodge maybe?) but one night after work we drove to northern Vermont to pick it up. I think we got home at 2am.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)

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I can watch this craftsmanship all day long. Beginning  (belatedly) to understand just how these seemingly impossible restorations are accomplished. Very few Mitchell parts at the local NAPA store.

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7 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

it has exactly the same problem with the final drive ratio, it is screaming at 50. Paul would like to get it to be a little more comfortable at that speed, so he bought a 2nd rear end — I forget what it's from ('48 dodge maybe?) but one night after work we drove to northern Vermont to pick it up. I think we got home at 2am.

I don't know if this will help or not:

 

When my 4 cyl 32 Plymouth conv was done, I just could not handle the road speeds needed on State roads like RT 44 heading your way from CT.  I determined that I needed just a scant 5 MPH ratio ndifference to be very happy.

 

There was a group of PB guys at Hershey then , selling parts as well as being a meeting spot for PB guys from all over the USA.  I explained the gear ratio problem, and their group in Ohio with flatter ground?....  they all used "a rear end center section" from a Small Mopar around 1950 plus/minus.  I found a rear like that from a 50? Ply, and it ended up being a 3.90.  But!  it did not bolt up to the PB housing, so I asked them at the next Hershey. ....

 

...They said you must modify the face of the PB housing bolt pattern, to make the later center bolt up.  The distance was the same, in other words, the face of the PB housing WAS in the right location away from the axle centerline on BOTH cars despite the age difference.  I never did the swap and really regret it.  I'd bet I might still have that car now

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I will pass that on... in fact, I will see Paul tomorrow.

I had one of those days when it doesn't look as if much happened but I'm beat from doing it. I made the second timing gear hub. Then faced both of them off to a nominal 3/8". The finished size will be 1/4" but they each get 3 studs that hold the gear in place. I want to drill and thread them, install the studs and then face off what will be the back of the gear... I might even put them in the surface grinder.

 

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I then put them  back on the mandrel and turned the OD of the flange to 3-1/2" (they were 3-5/8") If you are wondering why I didn't just use 3-1/2" bar, it is because it is virtually impossible to drill a hole perfectly in the center no matter how closely you indicate it. This is partly because twist drill wander a bit, even huge ones like the 63/64 I used to drill these. The best way to get everything absolutely concentric is to drill the holes and machine the OD off that... But, it was the end of the day and I forgot to take a picture. By the time I realized that, I'd taken them apart and wasn't going to reassemble them just for a photo. Here they are so far... the front part still has to be shortened but I wanted to check my figures again before I did it.

 

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48 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

why I didn't just use 3-1/2" bar, it is because it is virtually impossible to drill a hole perfectly in the center no matter how closely you indicate it. This is partly because twist drill wander a bit, even huge ones

Well, I only buy at the local salvage, so it would be quite the day to find that 3.5 stock.  However if I did get lucky, I'd use a the bit for making a dead center hole.  Mine do not seem to flex, and I am pretty sure I might be able to get it dead center on a 3.5....but I doubt I could ever find salvage 3.5 stock on a given day.

 

In that case, Yes, I'd grab the available 4"+ stock and do exactly what you did.  :) 

 

I envy your collet type chuck.  My lathe, from my friend Kenny was supposed to come with a large wooden box with so many sizes of collets, but they disappeared he said, "maybe grabbed by the guy who bought the other lathe".  I also screwed up as I could have grabbed a six jaw chuck, but didn't think enough about it's use on strange jobs :( 

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They don't wander much Frank... I think this was out .010. I usually start with a center drill, then about 3/8, then 3/4, then close to an inch. Above 1-/4" I bore the holes and boring is always preferable to drilling if straightness is a consideration. Another aspect is that the stock, unless it's ground, won't be truly round to thousandth. I have some 3" tool steel from a long gone local scrap yard... Mahoney's Industrial Salvage. If it was still around, Id 'be be there every Saturday morning, like I was when I was a lot younger.

 

What make of lathe do you have and do you know the taper of the headstock bore? That collet setup is something I cobbled together. I also have the one that came with the machine, although the collet "nose" is the worse for wear after having been outside, on the machine, for 10 or 15 years. If you can find an adapter with the same taper as your bore, the rest is pretty easy. Those are cheap, import 5C collets and I made the drawbar on the lathe.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)

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1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

What make of lathe do you have and do you know the taper of the headstock bore?

I forget the well known brand right now, but the model name is Big 10?  It also has the gap bed, as well as a tapering attachment, and quick change gearbox.  I don't know the headstock info.  The Gap Bed allowed me to reface my 55 Olds pressure plate easily, I think by using a face plate attachment.   I also used this lathe with it's 4 jaw to remachine several Olds .010 main bearings back to std.  Lol, let the couch potatoes imagine that one :)   I bolted two main caps together and used my only chuck, the 4 jaw.

 

I also cut my flywheel on my Aamco disc drum lathe with an odd shaped attachment arm.. I was told by a couple of internet engine shop guys that it is better to grind them,,,,,totally false as I soon found out.  A flywheel with the chatter marks which are high spots that are discolored/burned, are actually hardened by some heat induced molecular change.  When I was cutting, the bit would ride up over those.  I then switched tooling to get "under" those hard spots and it finally resurfaced perfectly.  When you grind, you are merely hiding those spots, they are still there, and your new clutch job is inferior.  That surface wears a bit normally, and those hard spots do not, so in time you are right back where you were...with high spots that will cause chatter.  My spots were just under .100 in total depth.  Taking off 1/8" is not some crisis :) 

 

I like running equipment, old or new,...stuff is getting DONE.  he,he

Edited by F&J (see edit history)

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I've always thought a gap-bed was just the right thing for automotive work. There aren't may parts that require that big swing, and none of them are long, but when you have to do a flywheel or a big brake drum, it's real handy to have. Post a picture some time and can probably identify it...

And you are certainly right about turning cast iron... one of the first things you do, when starting with a CI bar, is turn off enough to get "under" the heat induced scale. In fact, raw CI bar is always larger than it's nominal size because it is presumed you will have to take 1/8 off to get a good surface. I like working with cast iron (although many machinists don't)... everything is in slow motion. Very low speeds, deep cuts and a lot of chips on the floor that are easily swept up.

 

jp

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8 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Post a picture some time and can probably identify it...

I still have had no time to diagnose my non-working pic problem,  it could be a bad memory card, or a new obvious glitch in my 8 month old HP laptop, or the camera itself.  I tried to use my old (dormant)desktop PC as a test to plug the memory card into it's fixture to help know which item might be bad.  But that PC always has a steady green light on at the back where the power supply board is, and two weeks ago it just stays blinking.. geez.  Now I finally tried turning it on since then, and it is DOA.  Tried swapping the power supply with a junk PC bu one tiny 4 wire plug is lacking.  Dang..

 

Anyways, on my lathe...I just need to look at the NAME TAG on it today ... he he

 

.

Edited by F&J (see edit history)

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I didn't go in to the shop today for probably the first time in a month but my friend who is making the cam shaft sent me these photos...

 

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After finishing the two hubs, I made the gear blanks to go with them.  Unfortunately, when I originally planned this job I had intended to make the entire gear out of aluminum and thus bought pieces of 8" round thick enough to do that. The finished thickness of the entire gear is 1-1/2" at the hub but the gear itself is only 7/8" wide. And...I don't have any way to cut an 8" round that is 2" thick in half. so, for the past two days I've been generating huge poles of aluminum chips... enough to fill two very large trash bags.

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Here's a piece of 6061. I am actually making 3 blanks, two of 7075 and one of 6061. 7075 aluminum is quite a bit harder and is commonly used for aluminum timing gears and connecting rods. 6061 is much cheaper although given the time all this took, I really should have just bought 3 pieces of 7075 to begin with. This is only the second time I've tried making a prototype. Usually I dive right in, but this job includes so many operations I haven't done before I thought it prudent to have a gear for set ups. Although I probably can do it myself, I will almost certainly send the finished gears to a friend to cut the teeth. My dividing head isn't large enough to hold the 8" gear and I've never cut helical gears. There is quite a bit to gear design that isn't obvious until you start making them so, after everything that has gone into making these, I'd prefer to learn that operation on something that didn't take 3 days to prepare...

 

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With the piece faced off, I drilled a center hole and then bored it to 1.490. I don't have a drill that large, preferring to bore large holes. It is a little more time consuming but a bored hole, if done correctly, is straighter. After boring, the hole was reamed to 1-1/2". I also machined off quite a bit of the thickness to get them down to around 1"... the size I should have ordered in the first place.

 

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Then then went on this expanding mandrel and the faces were turned until I had a thickness of .875. The last step was to clean up the outside edge, taking off just enough to get them concentric. These large rounds aren't very round and I had to remove as much as .030 before they were clean. For the moment I am leaving them slightly oversize.

 

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Here they are, the two 7075 blanks, the two hubs and the 6061 "set up" blank.

While this was going on, the special end mills I need to finish the sheaves came in. I stayed with the gears until the blanks were done and will now go back to finishing the crankshaft hub. I left it set up on the rotary table.

 

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Here I'm centering the 1" end mill holder on the circle of holes. This was the purpose of the deep chamfer I put on the brass inserts. I use this "down & dirty" centering tool. It is not accurate enough for real precision but for locating an essentially cosmetic feature it is just fine.

 

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With the end mill centered over the holes, I can mill the relief. I was quite tired by now and made two stupid mistakes – nothing dangerous or damaging but I have a standing rule to quit when anything like that happens so I'll have to finish this tomorrow.

 

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Edited by JV Puleo
typo (see edit history)

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Thanks. I admit I haven't the stamina to do multiple 12 hour days like I did when I was in my 20s.

Here's the next few steps. The two pieces of the sheave assembled:

 

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As some point I will try to polish out the machining marks. The next step is to set it up in the lathe again. Havng trimmed the OD concentric with the ID made this easy.

 

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And bore it to the minor diameter of the threaded hub...

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I then started threading, but I must have made a slight math error because the hole was slightly too small. This isn't a disaster, it just means that you have to go on threading until you've brought it out to meet the part that screws in, but, since single point threading large holes like this is slow work, it adds time to the job. It's about 90% there but, for the same reason I quit at 6PM yesterday - I quit at 6 today. I'll finish in the morning.

 

The nominal size is 2-1/4 x 12 and it's a left handed thread because the natural force on these, when the engine is running, will tend to tighten them.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)

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It was only two or three more cuts finish the threaded hole.

 

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Aluminum, though soft, is abrasive and galls easily, as many will know from trying to get a bolt out of an aluminum casting. The threads are too rough for the part to be simply screwed in, so knowing exactly when to stop is a challenge. I go to a point where the matching piece screws in three or four turns before getting too tight to turn by hand. I then put some grinding paste on the threads and start "lapping" the threads. This is an old time machinist's trick, going back to at least the mid-19th century. If you've ever wondered why parts on the earliest cars were not completely interchangeable, it is because many such tricks were used in making them. I pressed the hub on to a mandrel and attached a lathe dog to get an easily gripped "handle." Then, the piece was worked back and forth until the threads were smooth, turning the hub in slightly more each time I worked it in and out. It probably took an hour to do this, withdrawing it from time to time to add more paste. The resulting threads are very smooth but tight.

 

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You'll know when it's finally in all the way. Lapped threads like this fit very closely. It is quite possible to tighten the piece up by hand and and need a wrench to get it out. Of course, I am replicating a 1-peice part so once assembled, there is no reason it would ever be disassembled.

 

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Here it is with the threading done. There is still quite a bit left to do... the sheaves need their grooves, the screws holding them together need to be replaced with countersunk screws, the key way and  crank "dogs" cut and everything polished to remove the machining marks, but the toughest part of the job is probably done.

 

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Edited by JV Puleo
typos and better wording (see edit history)
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I've been watching the machine work your doing and its some great quality work to be proud of,I started my working career as a tool and die maker,but I was 18 years old and couldn't stand in one spot long enough to no patience so after   2 years I went into the collision repair business,the  last 10  years I've gotten back into it, I hope someday to just be half the machinist you are after I watch each of your posts I learn something new the latest being the lapping of threads,please keep up the posts I'm sure I'm not the only one watching and learning.  Dave

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I don't think you'll have any problem surpassing me... and soon. I'm a completely self-taught amateur with a room full of antique machines. For this sort of work, I don't believe there is any better "training" than taking a rusty machine apart and putting it back together. After that experience, old cars are a vacation (most of the time!) Here's the milling machine  when it arrived. Oh, and read as many of the "old" books (say, from 1890 to 1920) on machine work as you can find. Things like the International Correspondence Schools produced. Everyone who was building cars in the first decade of the 20th century learned their trade in the 19th century and those skills will stand you in good stead nearly up to the present day.

 

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Edited by JV Puleo
Replacing missing photos (see edit history)
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Yes. It is a horizontal with an accessory vertical head so it can be used both ways. The accessory head weighs 400 pounds by itself so it is suspended by the crane on top. When you want to use it as a horizontal, you unbolt it from the face of the machine and swinging around to the side where there is another plate it can be bolted to. You can see it reassembled in post #28.

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