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My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project


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Here are the 4 "blanks" for the banjo fittings. Not surprisingly, the last one came out best but all of them are acceptable.

 

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I made the high head bolts that hold down the valve cages. They are OK but I was frustrated by the fact that original period bolts usually have a slight crown to the head. At the time I made the bolts, I couldn't do that so I put a slight chamfer on the edges. They obviously work but they didn't look right. So, I set the radius tool to as large a radius as I thought it could turn without chattering and put one of the bolts in the lathe.

 

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This job is much easier to do because the radius is fixed. All you are doing is moving it in and that can be done by moving the saddle of the lathe. I took very small cuts and left the machining marks - which are very light. Now, rather than looking like I made them they just look like old bolts.

 

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Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Nice Joe!

 

Here are a couple of photos of the split cam bearing. The lighting wasn't very good and

I had left all the original grease and oil on the cam to protect it until I can clean it for

installation. The cams are almost 5 feet long and rather heavy so I cheated and took

the photos as is where is.

 

In this photo you can just make out the part line. Also, note the small ears. These are for the

screws holding the halves together.

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Here is a better view - you can make out the head of the screw. The gear is for the oil pump drive.

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Nice touch with the bolts, those really look good.  It is a subtle difference but when everything in the engine bay is done the same the effect is just right.  When something isn't period correct, it stands out pretty bad.  I'll be having that issue with the Metz (hopefully soon) and I'll be trying to get that radius turning gadget I found in Asheville working on the Hendey. 

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Joe, nice job with the 4-balls, a pair of shivering brass monkeys would be very pleased with them. Just In case, you Americans from the other side of the pond don't understand - We have a saying in the UK "It's cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey"!

 

The bolt head also looks much more period, a nice job.

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OK Mike,  I also do not know the exact origin of the "Brass Monkey" quote you have shared, but we here in the mountain west of the US are well versed in the use of that same quote.  When that phrase its used you know it means cold!  I agree with the comments from Mike, small attention to detail certainly makes for a more era style of repair/rebuild.  Joe, keep up the good work.  You will have the only Mitchell, in the whole world, that will run and have a little touch of the RR world class detail and engineering!

Al

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The saying comes from the days of sailing warships. A brass tray would hold a pyramid stack of cannon balls next to a cannon on a ship. That brass tray was called a monkey and when the weather was cold enough, the tray would contract enough and the stack of cannon balls would fall off the tray.

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That is an interesting historical story of the "Brass Monkey".  That is not even close to what I had thought was the story behind the brass monkey, balls and cold!  Speaking of winter, how is it on the east coast for you fellows?  We in the west have only had a SO-SO winter to date.  Lots of cold but not so much snow and we need and rely on the snow for our summer water.  Joe, do you have the cam for your Mitchell?

Al

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1 hour ago, chistech said:

A brass tray would hold a pyramid stack of cannon balls next to a cannon on a ship

Yes, that is the common story. But I don't  believe it. Balls are spherical. How do you stop the first layer rolling away when putting the second layer on it? And it is on a SHIP, which is never stationary, so there is no way anybody could stack cannon balls like that!

 

The only reference to "monkeys" on a ship is the "powder monkeys" who carried the charge from the magazine to the cannon.

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The next step was milling the flats...

 

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So, now I have 4 "lollipops"

 

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Now I have to drill and ream the holes. I used the surface plate to get the piece parallel. I wasn't too thrilled with this but the only alternative was to make them one at the time without ever taking them out of the collet block.

 

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None of this part of the job worked as I'd planned. I had intended to drill and ream in the drill press but as things developed that wouldn't work. In the end I did it in the mill albeit having to change tool holders 3 times. In the end, I used a counterbore to face off both sides. I hadn't planned to do that but it turns out to have been a very good idea because now the hole in the center and the faces are absolutely perpendicular.

 

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Here's the first one. You can see the hole for the copper tubing. When all four are done I'll have to figure out how to mill the groove that runs around the inside.

 

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I think solid shot was usually kept in racks along the gunwales. It might have been stacked on deck for inspections and the like but that seems a poor idea if the ship was rolling - as they all were much of the time.

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On 1/17/2019 at 12:10 PM, alsfarms said:

That is an interesting historical story of the "Brass Monkey".  That is not even close to what I had thought was the story behind the brass monkey, balls and cold!  Speaking of winter, how is it on the east coast for you fellows?  We in the west have only had a SO-SO winter to date.  Lots of cold but not so much snow and we need and rely on the snow for our summer water.  Joe, do you have the cam for your Mitchell?

Al

 

So far, very little snow. It is cold, but probably not as bad as the midwest or Maine. My English friends are always aghast that I visit in February which, to them is the depth of winter. It is something of a running joke now because a British February, at least in the Midlands,  is more like Spring here. That said, they did have some serious snow last year.

 

Yes, I have a new cam, made for me by a friend who is also assembling a 1910Mitchell. We've been trading bits. I send him the stuff I'm not going to use (he's a lot more interested in keeping his car exactly as made) and he's made several things for me. As an aside (this pertains to the thread on the 1908 REO and the price of unrestored early cars) you have to be in the loop to take advantage of the sort of open exchange of parts and knowledge that characterizes many early car enthusiasts. Buying an unrestored wreck is the ticket of admission. Quite a few things that people here moan about the cost of are nowhere near as expensive as may generally be believed when like-minded enthusiasts are helping each other.

Edited by JV Puleo
typo (see edit history)
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9 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Yes, that is the common story. But I don't  believe it. Balls are spherical. How do you stop the first layer rolling away when putting the second layer on it? And it is on a SHIP, which is never stationary, so there is no way anybody could stack cannon balls like that!

 

The only reference to "monkeys" on a ship is the "powder monkeys" who carried the charge from the magazine to the cannon.

Yes, that is the story that’s told and joe is also correct that the shot was kept in wood racks along the insides of the ships. It is more believed that the reference is a late 18th, early 19th century American mixture of crossing extreme cold temps with the young powder monkeys, then dropping the shot with frigid hands, and the other statement of “ as cold as a witches tit in a brass bra”. It’s believed to be a compilation of all that. So basically, no one really knows where it came from!😂

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No problem Mike... I like a little digression and I actually got the joke but I've spent a lot of time in the UK over the past 30 years.

 

Al... regarding the cam. My friend didn't have one at all. I had two of them, neither of which was in any condition to use. One was badly rusted and the other had big chunks of the hardened surface broken out. However, my friend has a cam grinding machine and knows how to use it. I loaned him one of mine and he made two based on the dimensions. That's what I mean about exchanging stuff and expertise. I imagine this goes on all the time - at least I hope it does - but to the guys who think only with their checkbook it is largely invisible.

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Good Morning Joe,  I also enjoy a bit of levity from time to time, as you can tell!  I have heard of another saying that came from early Brit. sailors.  Maybe sometime it will bubble to the top and I will see how to use it in this dialog of yours.  Now for the sharing of parts.  I could not be where I am without some gracious help from other Locomobile owners.  Like you, instead of just having a few rare parts and with 40 years of patience, I am bearing down on a complete and running Locomobile.  Sometimes however, it pays to keep a friendly relationship and have a few parts to offer in help, patterns or to trade.  But even small things can result in big helps.  On the Wisconsin "M" engine that is next up for me, some helpful owners, Terry, Don and Lew, have been so helpful and I now have VERY nearly a complete and rebuildable engine core!  What is the latest thoughts on your oil pump?  Do you have the water pump also?

Al

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I'll get back to the oil pump next week. Making the new rotors is a fairly elaborate setup and I have to change the mill from vertical to horizontal so I wanted to finish the milling on the banjo fittings first. I will have to make a water pump. I've produced at least half a dozen designs so far, constantly refining them. It was surprisingly difficult to get any good engineering information about water pump design and the first ones I made probably wouldn't have worked. The original Mitchell water pump was a real piece of junk. I've heard that nearly none of them survive in usable condition. Mine was broken, to begin with, but it literally fell apart in pieces when I tried to disassemble it.

 

I finished boring the banjo fittings... and spoiled one in the process. It's good I had an extra. A friend called me while I was setting it up and somehow I drilled the hole off center. Actually, putting the holes in proved to be more challenging than I'd anticipated. That is often the case... the parts you think will be a problem aren't and those you think will be easy prove difficult.

 

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The next step was to put in the internal groove. I wondered how to do this for a long time and then lit on this idea, using a woodruff key cutter.

 

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It's a perfect example of what I was saying. I expected this to be a real challenge but in the end, it went without any problem at all.

 

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I've a couple more steps and then they will be "ship shape and Bristol fashion."

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Since I was on a roll today, I went back downstairs and removed the excess length.  These just get soldered to copper tube. The extra long ends were to make holding them in a collet easier. I did this with a counterbore.

 

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I think I can declare this job finished!

 

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They aren't quite "perfect" but I doubt I'll even remember the minor flaws in six months. Besides, I'm not building the space shuttle.

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On 1/17/2019 at 2:01 PM, Spinneyhill said:

Yes, that is the common story. But I don't  believe it. Balls are spherical. How do you stop the first layer rolling away when putting the second layer on it? And it is on a SHIP, which is never stationary, so there is no way anybody could stack cannon balls like that!

 

The only reference to "monkeys" on a ship is the "powder monkeys" who carried the charge from the magazine to the cannon.

 

Now that I think of it, round shot was stacked next to guns in land installations. This would mostly be seacoast fortifications. Fortress carriages and naval carriages are virtually identical - or were in the 18th and very early 19th-century.

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Re: . . . I loaned him one of mine and he made two based on the dimensions. That's what I mean about exchanging stuff and expertise. I imagine this goes on all the time - at least I hope it does - but to the guys who think only with their checkbook it is largely invisible.

 

Yours and Al's comments are my sentiments entirely.

 

"ship shape and Bristol fashion"  - Another nautical expression springs up in the posts!

 

Joe, you have widened my horizons, I would never, in the past, even considered trying to make banjo unions. Thank for all your useful posts.

 

 

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Hello Joe,  I have several cast aluminum fans.  If you so desire, I can send better pictures of those that I have.  If you are interested in dimensions I can provide those also.  I have had one of them reproduced a couple of times from the original pattern.  What diameter are you looking for?  Next, I will only offer this as a possibility regarding your water pump problem.  I have a couple of old and unidentified water pumps that may be adaptable for your engine should you choose to go that direction.  The ones I have are brass and are typical early engineering with packing glands etc.  Please refresh my memory as to where your new banjo fittings will be used.  I think I missed something in the past.

Hello Mike, I see that you are from Norfolk.  Where is that from London?  My wife's family is from that area a couple of generations ago.   Secondly, where are you from Manchester, my direct family line came from that area five generations ago.  I have a goal to make a trip to visit my and my wife's homeland in a year or two.  Lastly, I admire your avatar.  What is the nice red automobile you are tillering?  If I ever get to it, I have a 1904-5 Cleveland two cylinder rear entrance project that is similar to your car.

Al

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Al, the diameter of the original fan is 18". I have room to go somewhat larger if needed. The hub area is unimportant as I'll just make the parts. As to the water pumps... I would much rather adapt an old one than make a new one but thus far haven't seen one I could use. The problem is the manner in which it attaches - although I could change that too if I needed to. Can you take some pictures? If you have one that looks as if it will work we can then get some dimensions. The pump shaft has to pass through the pump because it also drives the magneto/distributor.

 

Oh... the Banjo fittings are for the oiling system. One will connect the pump to the oil filter housing and oil manifold at the back of the engine. There is very little room there so I need the flattest fitting I can come up with. The other two are to connect the oil manifold to the oil filler pipe - which is really the breather tube. Because the car originally had a total loss oiling system the breather tube is the only way to get oil into the crankcase. It will be a little slow but that's not important. The connection the Banjo fittings are for is the pressure relief line that will send the oil back to the crankcase if the pressure rises above about 15lbs. I'd post a drawing of this if I had one. so far, I've only drawn parts of it to work out dimensions. The rest of it is still in my imagination - and I confess that I've never made anything that did not change a bit in the process.

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Joe, I will try to gather up a couple of my unidentified brass water pumps and take pictures, if they fit into your basic requirements.  I will also take a few pictures of the fans I have that can be recast for you.  I now get the "jist" about your banjo fittings.  Thanks for the description.

Al

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Joe,  Here are a few pictures of three different fans each of which could be reproduced.  I am also showing pictures of two different water pumps.  I thought they were both brass.  The pump with the shaft out both sides is actually cast iron.  The brass unit looks like it could be altered to be threaded for a packing gland and have a new shaft built to accommodate a different application.  Also the brass pump would need to have the peculiar mounting bracket removed or modified to allow mounting in a different fashion.  I will send these pictures in different postings so as not to overdose your computer.  This fan is a fan from an early series American-LaFrance .  You will see the hub I added to make the center hub more robust after recasting to allow for a better bearing and hub size.  This fan is 19.5" OD.  I have kept this fan as it is 6 bladed and has the band around the circumference.

Al

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Hmm... I think the iron pump may be from an early Dodge - at least it looks similar. The brass pump is closer to what I'm looking for. I'm thinking that I could make a new cover and run the shaft through it but I'm finding it hard to visualize. I am sure that in order to utilize it I'd have to turn it around so the cover end was facing the front of the engine and I'm guessing the gland nut would then be turning the wrong way. I'm not sure how to deal with that, though I'm confident I could think of a way. ... use it in its current direction and make something that screws over the threads and against the housing... 

 

I also realized this afternoon that 17" is the largest diameter I can get in my lathe but your first set of photos gives me an idea... maybe I can make an aluminum hub and attach separate fan blades. I'm concerned with balancing the fan. I don't want one flying apart and gouging the radiator   (something I had an unfortunate experience with)...

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This is what I will have to replace.

 

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The water pump is in the lower right-hand corner. You can see how it was mounted on the engine There is room between the pump and the magneto to move it back and, while I'd like to use the original system, I'm open to changing the mounting details if I have to. This is really a poor design, to begin with. If you need to pull the water pump you have to remove the front covers and take the mag timing gear out with the pump. I intend to change that so I don't actually want a gland nut in the space between the two mounting flanges on the crankcase.

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Hello Joe,  I see what you are referring to regarding the Mitchell water pump.  I can't tell from the picture, but is your original pump brass or aluminum?  Have you had it open to evaluate the impeller and case for wear and damage?  I am with you on a modification to allow for this pump to be removed without getting into the front gear chest.  I will give you my "2 cent" thought on your pump dilemma.  I would explore the probability of rebuilding the pump you have, making a change to the design of shaft and coupling shaft and possibly relocating if needed.  If the internals are at least rebuildable, it would be easier to build a new discharge fitting and brazing that back onto the original pump case.  Yes it is a split case but you have the skill set that the repaired discharge fitting could be faced off and be as good as new.  After all this system is a low pressure design.  I can't see the water inlet port, is that inlet in good shape or is it broken also?  I have found that, with rare exception, is is easier to rebuild/repair original that start from scratch.  

Al

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The pump is aluminum. What you see in the picture is how it looked when the car arrived. There is a lot less of it now... in fact, it was so corroded from the inside that it literally fell apart when I tried to dismantle it. Believe it or not, the impeller was made from cast Babbit metal. I tried to replace the center (because it was badly worn) and melted it! The aluminum they used was really not suitable although it probably didn't fail in period. I'd like to move the pump back slightly so I can put a coupling in the shaft that will allow fine timing adjustment of the magneto. One problem I have is that with a new cam and higher compression the original timing would not be correct even if I knew what it was. I need a lot of adjustment since I won't be able to do that until the engine runs.

 

And, I agree re rebuilding vs. replacement but in this case, I've nothing to rebuild and the design was poor (i.e. cheap) to begin with. It is a lot different from the Loco where only the best materials were used and it was carefully made.

 

The water inlet is on the back side and points straight down.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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I see that the thinking of our NZ friend has merit.  Adjustments could be made to the original casing to accommodate subtle changes that are desired and even to include the adjusted mounting.  What a fun puzzle to put back together.  The one side would not be too bad but the back would be a different story but is an option.  Probably the big issue would be sourcing a new impeller, even that could be doable potentially with a new MFG unit then cut down to fit and shape the blades with a lathe.  hmmmm......

Al

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The impeller is easy to make. I've actually made one that I might use. The hard part is the "involute of discharge". I have yet to think of a good way to machine that. Ideally, it would be done with some sort of cam-controlled cutter. I have thought of casting one - I could do that quite easily as my next-door neighbor is an aluminum foundry. The complicated part is the special fixtures that would be necessary to machine the casting. None of this is impossible but none of it is easy so using an old pump or making one that circumvents the problems seems like the best way to go.

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