440T4 tranny 2nd clutch MIA.....

[89RedDarkGrey]

1 hour ago, drtidmore said:

 I am hoping that since my car is rust and corrosion free, maybe those body bolts that give so many an issue will be cooperative with me.  I am going to soak them and all the bolts with an ATF / Acetone mix.

 

As you can see from my own photos- there's not much wicking room for any type of penetrant. I was better off just breaking off the bolt heads (3) and with the Subframe removed- drill out the spot welds, and remove the chunk intact.

 

Fab up new "mount nuts" and heavily grease up your (new) bolts, and weld it together. Drizzle it with oil to cool when done (not water) and place them in their pockets, clamp to hold close, MIG the lid closed. Very easy, believe it or not.

 

SPOT WELD BRILL BIT

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by 89RedDarkGrey (see edit history)

[drtidmore]

Well, after several more very short driving hops over the past few days (literally around the block) to see if the qt of K&W TransX might free up a stuck valve or help a clutch piston seal retain a better seal, nothing has changed.  As I have refined my testing, I continue to have a rock solid 1st gear and then as the tranny attempts the transition into 2nd gear it is basically going into neutral.  Earlier I was mistaken in thinking it EVER engaged 2nd gear, which I now recognize as never happening, as the engine RPMs show NO sign of dropping at the end on the typical 1st to 2nd transition.  The 2nd clutch section in the 440T4 is likely the culprit in my situation and I suspect it is the 2nd clutch piston seal as it appears that the second clutch is simply NOT being engaged.  No 2nd clutch, NO 2nd gear, NO 3rd gear, NO 4th gear as that clutch must engage for all 3 of those gears! Prior to the problem rearing its head, I had NO warnings and the 1st to 2nd transition was always positive with zero slipping so it is likely in the piston section rather than the clutch pack itself.  It COULD also be the governor or the 2nd clutch valve or in the accumulators and ONLY a teardown will reveal the actual root cause.  Given that on the filter/fluid change a few weeks back & the one I did this past Sunday revealed NO metal shavings or particles in the pan or on the magnet, I have fairly high confidence that the 440T4 pump bearing is still intact as its failure spews metal throughout the tranny and the torque converter and in some cases can render the transmission a total loss. 

 

I have been learning everything I can about the 440T4, pouring over the overhaul manuals (both GM and 3rd party) and learning especially about its weak areas (granted it hard to say that the GM design was faulty as these 440T4s routinely last way over 100K).  What I have found, thanks to 89RDG pointing me over to davida1hiwaay's excellent videos, is that with some relatively minor modifications the majority of the rotating core of the vastly improved 4T65E transmission (successor to the 4T60E which was the successor to the 440T4/4T60) can be installed into the 440T4 case and use the 440T4's hydraulic valve body rather than the 4T65Es solenoid controlled valve body (i.e. controlled by PCM).  David also proves that the vastly improved pump design from the 4T65E can be transplanted with minor mods (this eliminates the problem of the pump bearing issue I mentioned above).  Of course this means getting a 4T65E salvage unit in order to scavenge the hard parts from it for transplantation into the 440T4.  It is not a complete swap but more of a merger as some of the 440T4 rotating parts and the 3rd clutch piston from the 440T4 are retained as the stock 4T65E rotating core stack is different, but the clutch packs, planetary gears and shafts of the 4T65E core will work.  It is really amazing how closely GM retained the overall 440 family design while significantly upgrading the strength on the 4T65E.  David proved this entire merger between a 440T4 and a 4T65E on his '87 Park Avenue about a year ago.  Yes this will be slightly more expensive than a straightforward 440T4 rebuild, but the result will be a much stronger tranny with improvement particularly in the 2nd and 4th clutches and the pump itself along with improvements in the internal clutch shafts.  This is likely how I will proceed.  Yes, I know it will be a frankenstein transmission that would throw a 3rd party tranny tech into the twilight zone at some potential point in the future, but as long as it is documented in detail, I don't see this as an issue. 

 

For those that might think I am crazy, sure this is not a typical weekend DIY job, but it is NOT rocket science either.  The worst part is getting the cradle/subframe out so that the tranny can be dropped out the bottom.  It can be done by only removing the driver's side of the subframe, but from what I am told, that is actually more difficult than just removing the whole subframe.  I have been intending to replace the 6 bushings on the subframe anyway due to their age (no sign of failure however).  I know those bolts will try my patience but I have the time and can walk away and tackle things another day, so this will not be a rush job.  I will be replacing all the engine and tranny mounts which I had purchased previously for the day when I decided to tackle them.  I will ensure that the ball joints are okay, but they show no signs to wobble presently, so I may or may not replace those.  I have a very minor engine rear seal leak and the oil pan gasket weeps a tiny bit (a drop every day or so at most), so that will be on my list. I don't intend to make this a massive "while you are there" project but I am going to go over everything while the subframe and tranny are out and ensure that things that are otherwise difficult to access and really SHOULD be replaced, are addressed. 

 

I expect this will take between 2 weeks and a month once I start the project.  I am NOT going to start the teardown until I have all the parts that I know upfront as necessary on hand.  I will post my progress along the way and I will be video documenting the process along with stills which I eventually will post. 

[DAVES89]

This will be a great series of posts. Maybe you should start a new post when you start.

 Good luck!

[drtidmore]

1 hour ago, DAVES89 said:

This will be a great series of posts. Maybe you should start a new post when you start.

 Good luck!

That was my plan.  

 

[89RedDarkGrey]

Between RockAuto and these places-

 

http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/

http://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/storefront.html

https://transpartsonline.com/TRANS_PARTS_FILE/tpcat.php?TransPartsOnline=4T60E&TransPartsType=4T60E

 

You should be able to find just about everything you need, without the hassle of getting a "donor parts" unit. If you have the means, muscle, and are able- then a scrap trans is another way to go, then harvesting questionable parts- and scrapping the rest is that route.

[drtidmore]

35 minutes ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

Between RockAuto and these places-

You should be able to find just about everything you need, without the hassle of getting a "donor parts" unit. If you have the means, muscle, and are able- then a scrap trans is another way to go, then harvesting questionable parts- and scrapping the rest is that route.

The issue going with new is the high cost plus some of those parts will be 3rd party items vs the OEM in a salvaged unit.  The 4T65E hard parts are even stronger than the 4L60E-HD (same rotating section as the 4T60E-HD) which can handle the LS series V8, so a salvaged 4T65E really falls way upside from questionable parts.  Of course if there are obviously worn parts found inside a salvaged 4T65E then new replacements would be in order.  I need to run the actual figures, but I did look at few new parts for the 440T4 and quickly saw that their cost would add up in a hurry.  By the time you get the pump section, planetary gears (front and rear), 3rd clutch sections, 2nd clutch section, driven input section and 4th clutch section hard parts new, I would be willing to wag it being north of $1000 at the very least.  A salvaged 4T65E can be had in the $200-$400 range.  But as I said, I do need to run the numbers and see.  

Edited May 18, 2017 by drtidmore (see edit history)

[89RedDarkGrey]

Very rarely do Hard parts ever fail. I can name off hand what I would definitely replace, regardless of "visible" wear:

 

1) https://transpartsonline.com/TPOTop/pprk.php?Image=624&Number=A84624&Description=Shell%2C+Reverse+Reaction+(4T60E)+(Hardened)+91-99+(AMD)&TsNumber=66978A&Addition=24221583&Price=43.39&Pic=4T60E&Variable=130&Trans=4T60E&core=0.00

 

2) (usually broken) https://transpartsonline.com/TPOTop/pprk.php?Image=280&Number=84280&Description=WASHER%2C+4th+Clutch+Hub+to+Driven+Sprocket+(4+round+Tabs%2C+2.830"+O.D.)+(4T60E%2C+440-T4)+84-99&TsNumber=&Addition=&Price=1.69&Pic=4T60E&Variable=120&Trans=4T60E&core=0.00

 

3) http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8065700&cc=1019922&jsn=492

 

Yes, cost adds quickly, easily spend $1.5k on just parts.

 

A cheap (free?) "while you're in there" can be cleaning out the HVAC air box. Ez to get to with tranny out.

 http://reattaowner.com/roj/component/content/article/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=95:heat-a-ac-system&id=325:evaporator-replacement  (Just the cleaning part)

 

4T65E parts= https://transpartsonline.com/TRANS_PARTS_FILE/tpcat.php?TransPartsOnline=4T65E&TransPartsType=4T65E

 

Awesome stuff.

Edited May 18, 2017 by 89RedDarkGrey (see edit history)

[89RedDarkGrey]

drtidmore-

 

I totally agree with your approach- remove and dismantle the tranny before buying any "Hard" parts (unless you want/need for the Upgrade) to minimize cost. How do you plan on supporting the engine? I used my Friend's HF brace, but you MUST have a "T" type to hold it correctly. I improvised with a heavy board & chain to make a complete "T". One key- is to leave the Dogbone in place. It will stabilize the engine side-to-side very nicely.

 

 

The only front support points you'll have (per the FSM) for this job- will be jack stands, directly rearward of the front wheels (while clearing the 2 Subframe mounts) on the underbody. Since I had additional body patching work- I opted to support at where the bumper shocks attach to the Core Support, on the absorber itself. It worked fine for me (with additional cement blocks and 1/4" plywood)

 

   It must be approximately I'd say about 2 ft. high at Rocker panel to easily wheel the tranny out.

 

 

 

[drtidmore]

17 hours ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

Very rarely do Hard parts ever fail. I can name off hand what I would definitely replace, regardless of "visible" wear:

 

Awesome stuff.

89RDG,

Thanks for confirming what I had concluded based on research.  That 4th clutch hub and the reaction shell (cheese grater) rose to the top of the most common early model 65E failure prone parts.  Still those are relatively inexpensive hard parts, so they were already on my list.  I have 5 full pages of notes from my research and multiple watchings of David A's 440/65E project...his videos are super!  I do have a few questions for him once he gets back with me, but they are easy yes/no type questions.  I will continue to flesh out my notes with more detail and eventually create a step by step process that I will follow.  I will have David's videos close at hand but with a build like this one, I want to make sure that I don't miss any little nuanced detail, so creating a detailed process makes sense to me.  Doing so also helps reinforce the whole process in my mind and will offer me documentation for future reference.  

 

As for supporting the engine, I am just going to bite the bullet and buy an OTC 1725 Three Point Engine Support Bar as the last thing I want is for the engine to slip while unsupported from underneath.  Thanks for the recommended 2' off the ground height as I intended to ask that question shortly.    

 

I am starting to put together my soft parts need list for this hybrid 440/65E.  As the all inclusive Super Overhaul kits no longer make sense due to the parts included that won't be needed, I will likely do a base level 440 kit, order 440 bands, then order piece parts for the 65E clutches, steels seals, etc but I have not yet run the figures, and it may turn out cheaper to do a 65E overhaul kit vs piece parts, so I have more homework. 

 

[89RedDarkGrey]

6 hours ago, drtidmore said:

As for supporting the engine, I am just going to bite the bullet and buy an OTC 1725 Three Point Engine Support

 

Some words of caution when using THIS are be mindful where our lifting eyelets are, and try to "spread out" the weight on the edges of our plastic fenders. I had found out that the support "A" legs of the H.F. version weren't tall enough, and to keep directly in line with the rear engine lifting eyelet, the "A" legs hit the Strut Towers. Also- the front bar was way too close to the engine, because the "A" leg wasn't tall enough. That is why I improvised with my partially home-made wood brace. I hope the OTC setup is different.

 

6 hours ago, drtidmore said:

the last thing I want is for the engine to slip while unsupported from underneath

 

Engine= roughly 700 pounds, Tranny= 189 pounds (dry)  I would be very leery of using those included cables. An aluminum 4-banger, ok, sure. Our cast iron beast- no.

 

I am very excited and happy that you are taking on this task! You will appreciate your car more when finished, and the peace of mind of reliability and longevity is priceless.

6 hours ago, drtidmore said:

 I do have a few questions for him once he gets back with me, but they are easy yes/no type questions

 

Yes, David is a wonderful Man, indeed! He is usually always willing to help others.

[drtidmore]

14 hours ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

 

Some words of caution when using THIS are be mindful where our lifting eyelets are, and try to "spread out" the weight on the edges of our plastic fenders. I had found out that the support "A" legs of the H.F. version weren't tall enough, and to keep directly in line with the rear engine lifting eyelet, the "A" legs hit the Strut Towers. Also- the front bar was way too close to the engine, because the "A" leg wasn't tall enough. That is why I improvised with my partially home-made wood brace. I hope the OTC setup is different.

 

 

Engine= roughly 700 pounds, Tranny= 189 pounds (dry)  I would be very leery of using those included cables. An aluminum 4-banger, ok, sure. Our cast iron beast- no.

 

Good catch!  The Kent Moore support specifically for our cars attaches to the strut mount bolts that protrude above their respective nuts which is a much better setup, but that support runs between $600 and $800 so it is out of the question for a one time project (hopefully only 1 time) like this.  Wish I could find one to rent as that would be the way to go.  As I am not yet to the point of needing the support, I will think about how to proceed a bit more regarding the support.

 

After researching, I have pretty much discarded the idea of buying new 65E parts rather than going with a salvaged 65E for the parts.  It was going to be a mess of a ordering parts from several vendors and some parts were only available from GM.  The cost also was well above the cost of a '98-early 2000s 65E plus shipping, nulling out the cost the known parts that I intend to replace regardless.  I plan to get the salvaged unit first, tear it down for the required parts, then taking the remainder to scrap metal salvage.  I will rebuild the needed 65E components before starting on the teardown of the Reatta so as to make the rebuild on the 440/65E hybrid proceed a bit faster once I have it to that stage.  Still investigating the best approach as to the overhaul kit for the 65E vs getting just the required seals, bushings, pistons, friction plates, steels, etc.  

[89RedDarkGrey]

Regardless of any other kits you buy- the one most important is that Transgo Jr. with the Parrot Plate. The accumulator cover always warps and leaks- and I've seen them crack before, too. A very poor design. The Parrot Plate acts as a washer, evenly spreading out the clamping force.

[drtidmore]

Yes, I have the TransGo SK-440-JR on the list of absolute parts.  

FYI, I just snagged a relatively low milage (106K) 65E out of a recently wrecked, 1998 SC Grand Prix.  The guy at the salvage yard (local BTW) told me that the car was so immaculate that he was able to sell the entire interior as a unit.  Got the tranny for $300, but no shipping needed as I am running over tomorrow morning early to pick it up (guy at yard agreed to meet me on a Sunday!). So the adventure begins!  Now that have my donor tranny lined up, I know exactly which overhaul parts to buy to rebuild the 65E components that I will be using.

[Nittany]

http://www.tripleedgeperformance.com/

 

Drtidmore,

 

i have been following your thread on transmission work, and I commend your willingness to DIY an automatic transmission.  There is a vendor that goes by the name of GMTuner who has performed chip updates for some of our forum.  He also has a shop in Indiana that specializes in engine swaps for Fiero's and has done a number of  Reatta's check out this one (http://www.gmtuners.com/Customer/90ReattaL32/index.htm ) as well.  Among his list of Links is his automatic transmission guy who is Tripleedgeperformance, see link at the top of this comment.

 

In addition to offering rebuilt transmissions, he sells manuals and parts and one part in particular that I thought may interest you: http://shop.tripleedgeperformance.com/Engine-Support-Bar-AP5820.htm .  Actually there may be a number of parts and accessories that may be of interest to you if you look in his online store.  

 

Best of luck to you and your project!  By the way, I am not employed nor do I have any financial interest in Triple Edge Performance.  I am planning an engine and transmission swap in the next couple of years and I intend to use these two vendors because I don't have the skills necessary but I can afford to pay to have it done.  

[89RedDarkGrey]

That engine brace has the same design as many others, and as I've stated before- will not work on our Reatta. Look closely at your own. Even take a broom handle or similar to gauge it- the strut towers are very high, and the hood hinges are in the way perfectly. You can not rest any support on the edges of the plastic fenders, either.There is a reason I made my support the way I did.

 

Also- a typical "engine hoist" (cherry picker) is nearly useless here- the legs are in the way, and hoists tend to pull back as they lift, which would be catastrophic, possibly yanking the car off the stands.

 

The "Correct" T brace (Kent-Moore GM J-28467) is on eBay, but you must hunt down all the required components of the suitable brace for a Reatta. I think drtidmore mentioned he was fabbing his own brace, based on what's needed. It bolts to he strut towers.

 

[2seater]

I would think it would be pretty straightforward to make a tee brace for this specific application as drtidmore intends to do. It doesn't need any adjustable slides and such so could be pretty simple. Not looking to start a controversy, but I would bet the completely dressed 3800 weighs no more than 450# and likely less. I have two 3800's on stands now as well as a big block Chebbie, which is probably close to two of the 3800's. A big block 455 Buick comes in around 600#

[89RedDarkGrey]

Yea, I can't offhand remember where I saw that "700 lb." figure. Maybe that's the engine/trans combo?

 

Trans= roughly 189 (dry, no converter) -700 = 511 lbs ?

 

Yes- I think my statement of engine weight was way off

 

All I know- is that when I was crawlin around, cleaning, replacing, painting, (my Friend) welding- even though my brace was HD it still was unnerving at times. That's a lot of cold cast iron and aluminum and steel above me

[2seater]

7 hours ago, 89RedDarkGrey said:

All I know- is that when I was crawlin around, cleaning, replacing, painting, (my Friend) welding- even though my brace was HD it still was unnerving at times. That's a lot of cold cast iron and aluminum and steel above me

I am in complete agreement on the sometimes uneasy feeling, like being in a mineshaft w/creaky timbers from an old western. :)

[Dashmaster]

I give you all of you lots of credit that have pulled only the trans out the side. But for me I would pull the engine\trans combo from the top using a engine hoist. Not sure on these cars which way may be easier. Best wishes on the trans repair.   

[89RedDarkGrey]

Removing the entire powertrain as a unit is definitely not a 1 person job. Many more connections with engine, draining coolant, possible hood removal- then separating the two- having a stand or old truck tire to set the engine on, and transferring an 189 lb. TH440-T4 to a workspace alone is no fun and dangerous- to the mechanic and transmission, should it be banged or dropped.

 

If going up, with the entire powertrain was better- then why spend the money to design and build the KENT-MOORE J-Tools (Transaxle engine braces) and hundreds of other specialty tools for Dealerships to make their jobs easier, safer, and most of all quicker- actually saved many thousands of labor hours and Tech dollars.

 

KENT-MOORE Tools was so lucrative- that it was bought out by SPX Service Solutions, and still continues to manufacture specialty tools for Dealers of car makers around the world. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by 89RedDarkGrey (see edit history)

[DAVES89]

I guess I have as much experience as anyone so here goes. When we did the tranny only removal we jacked the car up and used a Harbor Freight cherry picker to hold the engine in place and seperated the tranny from the engine and let it down with a tranny jack.  The cherry picker did not do much more then hold the engine in place. 

 When we did the engine and the tranny we removed the hood, radiator fans and radiator and pulled from the top.

 If I was "only" doing the tranny dropping it out the bottom is the way to go.

[89RedDarkGrey]

I had Friends that worked for a Dealer here- a bizarre method they sometimes used (especially on Pontiac Transports) was to unhook all electricals, hoses, and the steering coupler- zip out the cradle bolts- the lift the body up, leaving the "powertrain module" on the floor. That was the only way certain things could be accessed on that vehicle; I'm not sure if it had a Doghouse like most vans of that era. Padgett had one- he can say what. I know they used to dread those coming in.

[drtidmore]

Well, I see there has been quite a bit of discussion on my thread while I was busy over the last couple of days.  First off, I now have my donor 4T65EHD, a 1998 from a supercharged Grand Prix with 106K miles.  Car was a one owner, recently wrecked and according to the salvage yard the interior, which they NEVER mess with salvaging, was so immaculate, they pulled and sold it as a unit.  The tranny is fairly clean to have come from a 20 year old car.  I pulled the fluid with an extraction pump and it was not exactly pristine, so I suspect it had never been changed, but I am just interested in the hard parts in the tranny anyway so those should be fine.  All new bushings will be installed in 65E donor parts as well as in the the 440T4.  I am going with Raybestos Gen 2 racing frictions as while I don't plan to race the Reatta (LOL), these frictions offer superior performance such as higher coefficient of friction, lower heating, longer life.  Going with better frictions, along with new steels, will not change the feel of the transmission, so other than a small additional cost factor, there are no negatives.  

 

For those that have not picked up on what I am doing, this is going to be a hybrid rebuild using slightly modified 4T65E rotating parts with a few items from the 440T4.  It will also have the vastly improved charge pump design from the 65E (the pump shaft bearing on the 440T4 was a weak point and if that bearing fails, which it has a history of doing, metal shavings are spewed throughout the entire transmission, potentially destroying many parts in the tranny). At any point in the build, I have the option of returning to a straightforward 440T4 rebuild. I'm in contact with the individual that pioneered this hybrid build and I am confident of my success.  Yes, it is a bit more complicated than a plain 440T4 rebuild, but not dramatically so.  I will end up with a significantly stronger transmission and all the improvements that GM incorporated in the 4T65E.  

 

Now on to the whole engine support discussion.  I looked into every potential option as to how to securely support the engine as I pulled the transmission out the bottom.  I really preferred to go with the Kent Moore J-28467 tools as referenced in the FSM, but the costs I was finding seemed pretty outrageous ($600-$800 and it was not clear if that even included all the support components required).  I kept digging and finally came up with a definitive list of the individual part #s to assemble a genuine Kent Moore support specific to the Reatta (i.e. without ANY of the extra items that came with the dealer version).  eBay and a lucky catch after contacting one vendor, provided ALL the correct pieces to assemble the correct engine support and at way less cost than anticipated.  With the proper support holding the engine, I will pull the entire cradle/subframe.  I plan to replace all those subframe bushings as mine are factory and while they still look okay, they are 29 years old.  

[DAVES89]

Looks like you are off to a good start. Hope it has a great ending!