63 Rust bubbles underneath rear fender

[Turbinator]

Gents, I cannot see any holes and the bubbles are small, but numerous. I'm a proactive guy regarding ongoing maintenance on the Red Riviera.

I don't want any bondo in the car. Is it better to find the whole fender, repair kit, OR have an auto body fabricator replace with metal?

Thank you

Red Riviera Bob

Edited May 9, 2017 by Red Riviera Bob
Error is description (see edit history)

[RivNut]

If there are no holes and you think it's just pitted and you do that want any bondo, you might consider using All-Metal body filler.  There's nothing wrong with a skim coat of  "bondo" if it's just used for smoothing.

[Seafoam65]

                    Normally bubbles mean that the car is rusting out in that area and if you were to take an ice pick and poke the bubbles you would

find that it would go right through, making a hole. It sounds to me like you need to have new metal formed to make a patch panel and cut out the

affected area. Rust is like cancer, if you don't cut it out it will spread. You don't state where all the bubbles are.....front fender or rear quarter panel?

I assume they are down low behind the wheelwell where 60's cars always rust out. If the bubbling is only down low, then a patch panel is the way to go.

If the bubbles are coming up above the wheel well opening, then another quarter panel or fender may be best.

[Eric's.64.Superwildcat]

Can you post a photo of the affected area?

[Black River]

Almost all cars that have been repainted have some form of a skin coat of filler.  To metal finish is almost a lost art and extremely time consuming (read: EXPENSIVE).  Think about trying to get a welded seam completely smooth to where you can't see it with just primer and paint and how much work that'd take.  Dang near impossible to pull off.  Leading is another option (we did that on my Mach 1), but also expensive and finding someone old school enough to do it is a task.

 

Lucas

[Scott Mckenzie]

Was there a tarp on the car in storage outside? Reason I`m asking is I had a car with a car cover on it in the elements over a fall and winter season. when I took the cover off in the spring all sorts of little (pinhead size) blisters appeared . live and learn , I sanded down to bare metal and repainted.

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Scott Mckenzie (see edit history)

[Turbinator]

15 hours ago, RivNut said:

If there are no holes and you think it's just pitted and you do that want any bondo, you might consider using All-Metal body filler.  There's nothing wrong with a skim coat of  "bondo" if it's just used for smoothing.

Ed, thank you. I have read about Lab Metal a product that may be similar to the All-Metal body filler. The area that is has the rust bubbles is the left hand rear quarter panel on the metal that curls under behind the rear wheel. I believe your solution is among the best I've seen. Thank you for your reply. When I get around to repositioning the positive battery cable on my 63 I'll post and refer to the TSB's I purchased from Jim Cannon. Again thank you for your help.

[Turbinator]

14 hours ago, Scott Mckenzie said:

Was there a tarp on the car in storage outside? Reason I`m asking is I had a car with a car cover on it in the elements over a fall and winter season. when I took the cover off in the spring all sorts of little (pinhead size) blisters appeared . live and learn , I sanded down to bare metal and repainted.

 

 

 

Scott, I've on had the car 12 months this May 2017. I have kept the car garaged. I believe the car to have been kept under cover with it's passed owners. The blisters I have are larger than pinhead, but not over 3/16" at the widest area of rust. Thank you for your help. Your solution sounds great. Appreciate your input.

[Turbinator]

16 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

                    Normally bubbles mean that the car is rusting out in that area and if you were to take an ice pick and poke the bubbles you would

find that it would go right through, making a hole. It sounds to me like you need to have new metal formed to make a patch panel and cut out the

affected area. Rust is like cancer, if you don't cut it out it will spread. You don't state where all the bubbles are.....front fender or rear quarter panel?

I assume they are down low behind the wheelwell where 60's cars always rust out. If the bubbling is only down low, then a patch panel is the way to go.

If the bubbles are coming up above the wheel well opening, then another quarter panel or fender may be best.

Sir, the bubbles are underneath the passenger side rear quarter panel. I have some snapshots of the bubbles. Hopefully, I can either sand them down in put on some on All Metal , IF THERE ARE NO HOLES AFTER I SAND IT. in the event there are holes I have to get a patch panel and follow through with your suggestion. I like to do things right, but not over do. Sometimes it is a fine line between getting the job done appropriately and over doing the job. Funny example, people have said to me why do you wear a belt and  suspenders? My answer is , "to hold my pants up."

[Turbinator]

16 hours ago, Eric's.64.Superwildcat said:

Can you post a photo of the affected area?

Here are pic of the area that needs attention.

[RivNut]

Can you post a picture of the entire rear fender?  I'd like to see more of that black rubber strip. Does it run the entire length of the car?

 

Ed

[60FlatTop]

Pop out your back seat and package tray. Check for rust in the areas under the back window and into the upper areas of the trunk.. That might be to source. Repairing the window lip and R&R of the the glass will be the first step. I have the beginning of it on mine, on the list this year.

 

I might seem overly fussy, but I am creating a compelling case for a new MIG welder and a few hundred bucks worth of goodies to go with it. Surely $1200-1500 in welding equipment is MUCH better than paying a shop for a one time job.

Bernie

[Seafoam65]

                    After seeing your pictures, the bottom of your quarter panel is rusting out. The only fix that

will last is to cut out the bad area  and weld in a patch panel. As I said before, the rust is like cancer......cut it out or it will continue to spread.

Any competent body man could make a patch out of a piece of sheet metal, weld it in, and spot the paint below the molding.....not a very big deal.

My 69 GTO quarters looked like your pics in 1974. I fixed it with patch panels and it still looks great today. If I hadn't fixed it when I did I would

have had rust climbing up to the top due to the fact that it spreads like cancer if left alone.  

[Turbinator]

I'm in agreement with your analysis of the pic you see I sent along. Makes plenty of sense to me to do just like you suggest. I'm not sure if the area that I live in  ( Central Maryland )has shops interested in anything, but insurance work where they can supplemental the heck out of the job.

ive visited one shop and in essence he was not interested in the job. He said for $3k he could patch it and paint the area, but not guarantee the work. Not much of a salesman trying to help people.

im sure if I continue to dig I'll find the "fix" at a fair fee for work completed.

thank you very much

[Turbinator]

22 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Pop out your back seat and package tray. Check for rust in the areas under the back window and into the upper areas of the trunk.. That might be to source. Repairing the window lip and R&R of the the glass will be the first step. I have the beginning of it on mine, on the list this year.

 

I might seem overly fussy, but I am creating a compelling case for a new MIG welder and a few hundred bucks worth of goodies to go with it. Surely $1200-1500 in welding equipment is MUCH better than paying a shop for a one time job.

Bernie

Bernie, I did see a tiny rust spot under the corner of the rear window. Wow, I didn't think I'd have to dig this deep, but while I'm at it I just as well go ahead and see what is happening.

thank you very much

[Scott Mckenzie]

 Rust is sometime like an iceberg, it`s not what you can see that is a problem.   Too many people find rust but don`t repair it properly and just put mud (polyester filler) over the problem  .  If you`re a handy fellow you can save yourself a lot of money going the DIY route. There are many how to videos on You Tube on rust repair and panel replacement. . I think I`ve watched most of them

[Seafoam65]

                I agree with Bernie that the some of the rust in your quarters could be due to moisture seeping into the body from the back window...

If you are seeing evidence around the molding of this, you can pretty much bet that the bottom of the rear window channel is perforated. My Dad's

65 Riviera back window channel had holes in it letting water into the rear of the body in 1970, and it was a southern garaged all the time car that was

only in the rain when being driven in the rain which was not very often. One of the main reasons I bought the 65 that I own now is that according to

the guy who owned it for 45 years, it hasn't been wet since 1967! It was never even washed with a hose, just wiped down with a damp towel after use.

I have continued the same treatment......no rust has ever popped up so far.

[Pat Curran]

That is rusting from the inside out so you have moisture getting in somehow.  It doesn't look too bad.  I have seen really bad ones over the years and yours does not fall into that category.  You may find some previous rust repair work once you sand down the area so be prepared.  You should be able to see any previous repair work from the inside.  It looks like a patch panel will do the trick.

[Zimm63]

Where in central MD?  I know a couple shops on the Eastern Shore that could repair that.  No idea of cost though.  

 

Shops generally hate rust repair, because it can be a bit of a whack a mole.  Fix one spot, another one pops up.  Customer is unhappy.  I stripped my car and fixed everything I found, which wasn't much- a couple spots at the bottom of the front fenders, on the rockers, the rear window, and the trunk floor as a result of the rear window.   An interesting spot was the bottom of the leading edge of the hood had some rust out and had to be patched.  

 

Good luck.  

 

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, Zimm63 said:

Customer is unhappy.

Worse, the customer's friends are happy to point out the flaw. Then take it out in public and even little old ladies will stop their grocery cart and ask "What is that?" I just said it out loud so you can remember the tone of voice, like it was the most amazing mystery in the world.

 

I have to laugh. I dropped the subframe from my Park Ave convertible, replaced the engine, rebuilt the transmission, painted and detailed the frame, put all new brakes and hoses on, new rear springs, four NOS wheels, and new period white walls. It has a stainless trim piece ahead of the left front wheel that has a small dent. A guy came out of a restaurant, got down on one knee, and touched the dent with his finger, asking "What happened here?" I actually had bought the replacement and had not buffed it yet. I knew him so my Andrew Dice Clay impersonation didn't have the affect it could have.

 

Notice I wrote "touched". That is the only sense that truly satisfies most people of the reality of things they see. I bet a few have already bent over and touched those bubbles, Don't let them catch you laughing next time you see that. Sometimes they get offended.

 

My Wife says I get entirely too much entertainment when I nudge her and say "Watch what they do."

Bernie

 

Oh, buy the welder. You'll love it.

[Seafoam65]

Red Riviera Bob..........if you need inspiration for fixing the rust on your Riviera, go to the main Buick forum section titled

"Me and My Buick" and read the blog titled "restore my Electra 69"

Edited May 10, 2017 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[RivNut]

2 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

Red Riviera Bob..........if you need inspiration for fixing the rust on your Riviera, go to the main Buick forum section titled

"Me and My Buick" and read the blog titled "restore my Electra 69"

I've been following this as well.  Quite an undertaking and the results are excellent especially when you look at the "tools" the guy is using for metal shaping.

 

Ed

[lrlforfun]

OK Bob:  A theory that what you want to hear is that there is a real short cut.  I wish because I have ooodlez of cars with rust holes.  The short cut.  There is none. Total disassembly of the trim. Media blast to bare metal. Cut the ca-ca out and replace it with non rusted metal that sometimes can be purchased new or used...or....fabricate what's necessary. Very involved.

 

I have found that the shops  that do this kind of work think they have everybody by the short hairs and unless you are willing to write a blank check paying by an hourly time/materials quote....... good luck!  Perhaps with a new administration that gives vocational training the respect it deserves,  more young people will be learning this skill and then it will  get reasonable.  I can only hope.   Mitch

[Turbinator]

On 5/8/2017 at 4:40 PM, RivNut said:

If there are no holes and you think it's just pitted and you do that want any bondo, you might consider using All-Metal body filler.  There's nothing wrong with a skim coat of  "bondo" if it's just used for smoothing.

Ed, I put the Riv on my new lift. Here are the pictures of the quarter panel black stripe you mentioned.

[Turbinator]

On 5/9/2017 at 0:50 PM, Seafoam65 said:

                I agree with Bernie that the some of the rust in your quarters could be due to moisture seeping into the body from the back window...

If you are seeing evidence around the molding of this, you can pretty much bet that the bottom of the rear window channel is perforated. My Dad's

65 Riviera back window channel had holes in it letting water into the rear of the body in 1970, and it was a southern garaged all the time car that was

only in the rain when being driven in the rain which was not very often. One of the main reasons I bought the 65 that I own now is that according to

the guy who owned it for 45 years, it hasn't been wet since 1967! It was never even washed with a hose, just wiped down with a damp towel after use.

I have continued the same treatment......no rust has ever popped up so far.

Thank you for your follow up and comments regarding the package tray and leaks around the back window. I will give the area an inspection and see what else I can add to the list.??

[Turbinator]

3 hours ago, lrlforfun said:

OK Bob:  A theory that what you want to hear is that there is a real short cut.  I wish because I have ooodlez of cars with rust holes.  The short cut.  There is none. Total disassembly of the trim. Media blast to bare metal. Cut the ca-ca out and replace it with non rusted metal that sometimes can be purchased new or used...or....fabricate what's necessary. Very involved.

 

I have found that the shops  that do this kind of work think they have everybody by the short hairs and unless you are willing to write a blank check paying by an hourly time/materials quote....... good luck!  Perhaps with a new administration that gives vocational training the respect it deserves,  more young people will be learning this skill and then it will  get reasonable.  I can only hope.   Mitch

Mitch, you are a mind reader. I'll look under the package tray and see what exists around the back window. I have to agree vocational training for our high school youth would pay great dividends for all involved. We have a high school in Baltimore COUNTY Maryland that teaches vocational training as well as enough comprehensive subjects that 88% of the graduates continue on to college. What a great idea, teach the kids how to work with their hands and then teach them how read, write, and cypher to a higher degree. All the time I spent in high school French class was a waste of everyone's time. 

Im pretty sure I can connect enough dots and find the right shop to replace the quarter panel. Thank you for the tip.?

[Turbinator]

On 5/9/2017 at 2:11 PM, Zimm63 said:

Where in central MD?  I know a couple shops on the Eastern Shore that could repair that.  No idea of cost though.  

 

Shops generally hate rust repair, because it can be a bit of a whack a mole.  Fix one spot, another one pops up.  Customer is unhappy.  I stripped my car and fixed everything I found, which wasn't much- a couple spots at the bottom of the front fenders, on the rockers, the rear window, and the trunk floor as a result of the rear window.   An interesting spot was the bottom of the leading edge of the hood had some rust out and had to be patched.  

 

Good luck.  

 

Zimm, I live in central Maryland- Baltimore County 12 miles north of the Baltimore City Line. Please, if you can remember those shops on the Eastern Shore that could repair my problem I would be grateful. Thank you for your input and help in finding a repair shop.

[Turbinator]

On 5/9/2017 at 0:08 PM, 60FlatTop said:

Pop out your back seat and package tray. Check for rust in the areas under the back window and into the upper areas of the trunk.. That might be to source. Repairing the window lip and R&R of the the glass will be the first step. I have the beginning of it on mine, on the list this year.

 

I might seem overly fussy, but I am creating a compelling case for a new MIG welder and a few hundred bucks worth of goodies to go with it. Surely $1200-1500 in welding equipment is MUCH better than paying a shop for a one time job.

Bernie

Flat Top, I like the way you think. However, I would guess I should have some clues on how to weld before I buy a welder. As much time as I'm at the fabricator's shop I'd think I'd learn how to weld by now! Thank you for the help.

[Zimm63]

Queenstown Collision Repair painted my car, but I had done the metal repair first.  Kensington in Grasonville is another that I hear can to this type of work with good results.  

 

Anderson Automotive in Gambrils would be another possibility.  He writes an article in the Review.  Never done business with him, but he makes sense in writing.  

 

Local shops?  I can check with people I know up that way if you like.

 

Beware:  metal reapir will be expensive.  Thats why I learned to do my own 40 years ago.  Too poor to pay.  

 

Zimm

 

[Turbinator]

On 5/10/2017 at 10:56 AM, Seafoam65 said:

Red Riviera Bob..........if you need inspiration for fixing the rust on your Riviera, go to the main Buick forum section titled

"Me and My Buick" and read the blog titled "restore my Electra 69"

Winston, inspiration is not needed. What I really need is the desire to part with some more $. I had to buy the car last year- then I have put in 1/2 again as much as I paid for the car during the year. So all told I love the car and I'm satisfied with my expenditures so far. My friends tell me I have deep pockets ,but short arms! My lovely wife tells me I spend money like it grows on trees. Fortunately, I have not spent more than I can afford to pay as I go along. I'll get to the body work as soon as I catch my breath. Thank you for the link.

[Turbinator]

15 hours ago, Zimm63 said:

Queenstown Collision Repair painted my car, but I had done the metal repair first.  Kensington in Grasonville is another that I hear can to this type of work with good results.  

 

Anderson Automotive in Gambrils would be another possibility.  He writes an article in the Review.  Never done business with him, but he makes sense in writing.  

 

Local shops?  I can check with people I know up that way if you like.

 

Beware:  metal reapir will be expensive.  Thats why I learned to do my own 40 years ago.  Too poor to pay.  

 

Zimm

 

Zimm, thanks for the leads. I'm familiar with the Eastern Shore of Maryland to a degree. The Eastern shore is so different from central and western Maryland. I grew up in Gambrills, Md. And family is still in the neighborhood so it's is no problem to find Anderson's shop. I've read some of Anderson's articles and yes he makes sense. Since Anderson makes sense in his writing he demonstrates he should be able to calculate a fair deal for his shop and the customer. Businessmen who know how to calculate all the costs as opposed to guessing at high fees usually come up with a fair deal. I learned some stuff as I came up, but welding and mastering any craft or skill working with my hands was not some of things I learned. However, as a corporate salesman I'd did pretty good. Handling a shovel, pick, chain saw, small to medium size truck driving and material handling as a kid has stayed with me. I learned auto mechanics work just enough to protect myself from unscrupulous mechanics was the best I could do. Thanks again for your help. I appreciate very much.

[jsgun]

I used to do a lot of rust repair when I lived back east. I'll parrot a lot of what was already said. Rust comes from the backside because the metal isn't as protected with paint. That, and dirt gets trapped, causing a sponge effect and moisture gets held on the metal. Especially at pinch welds, like at the bottom of fenders and doors.

 

Your bubbles look like previous rust repair becoming active again. The flat tops on the bubbles are the usual indicators. Rust that started on the backsides tends to show as rounded, uneven and bumpy bubbles. I suspect there was surface rust and pitting, but probably no holes. Someone sanded it off, and then painted over it. The rust in the bottoms of the pits became active, and began to expand again. Probably some pin holes. behind them now. The flatness of the bubbles is the old filler (probably scratch filler) and layers of paint lifting up in the outline of the old pits. I've had this happen to me years ago.

 

I've had great success using a penetrating oil called "Gibbs Brand Lubricant" on rust to stop it from spreading.

[RivNut]

Eastwood makes a couple of good products.  Rust Converter and Rust Encapsulator.  Probably worth looking into.

[Turbinator]

On 5/9/2017 at 0:21 PM, Seafoam65 said:

                    After seeing your pictures, the bottom of your quarter panel is rusting out. The only fix that

will last is to cut out the bad area  and weld in a patch panel. As I said before, the rust is like cancer......cut it out or it will continue to spread.

Any competent body man could make a patch out of a piece of sheet metal, weld it in, and spot the paint below the molding.....not a very big deal.

My 69 GTO quarters looked like your pics in 1974. I fixed it with patch panels and it still looks great today. If I hadn't fixed it when I did I would

have had rust climbing up to the top due to the fact that it spreads like cancer if left alone.  

MrSeafoam-, After some more study I found the car to have been under coated. The undercoating looks like the Zeibart stuff, but I could very well be wrong.

I found a repair shop that has older mechanics who all OWN collector/classic cars. I talked to the owner and my sense he and his crew know what they are doing. I have to wait a month to get my car in for repair. Along with the rust hide and seek mission Im getting the AC compressor with new Harrison compressor and drier. I'm lucky to find someone who still handles R12.

once I get the AC and rust squared away I'll be in good shape until something else breaks!

 

[Seafoam65]

               Very pretty car........love the Red!