The starter just grunts

[Earl B.]

On my 1955 Roadmaster, It sat a while-- like 5 months-- and when I went to start it, the starter sort of growled or grunted, but no more.  I figured the battery was dead, so charged it, or at least tried to, and it would not charge.  So-- new battery--same noise.  I jumped the battery post on the solenoid

to the other one and got only a spark, no noise at all. 

Any help would be appreciated,  Earl B.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Earl B. (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

Try new battery cables. Even if that's not the issue you probably need them. Clean all cable terminals. Failing that pull the starter and check it and the solenoid. Is it possible the engine sized up? Unlikely in 5 months but you never know....................Bob

[Earl B.]

Bob, How can I tell if the motor is seized up?

[NC-car-guy]

Starter motor or the engine itself

[KongaMan]

I just went through this in a different application.  Turns out the lead to one of the brushes in the starter motor had broken.

[Bhigdog]

44 minutes ago, Earl B. said:

Bob, How can I tell if the motor is seized up?

 

Twer it me I would chase it down from the likeliest/easyist  to hardest/worse case. Clean all the battery/starter terminals. No joy? Replace battery cables. No joy? Pull starter and bench test it and solenoid. If OK see if engine is free.

It's unlikely starter motor is "frozen". More likely moisture/corrosion has had it's way either with the terminal connections, or perhaps the starter brushes or solenoid. If the starter is grunting it's likely the problem is down stream of the start relay which seems to be doing it's job.

When you question the "motor" being seized I assume you mean the starter "motor". If you mean the Engine being seized the easiest/best way, since the start Motor has been removed, is using a large screw driver pry on the ring gear and see if you can rotate the flex plate. Even a few teeth of rotation means the engine is not frozen/seized. I'm guessing that is not the problem.................Bob

[Beemon]

If you can get under the car, jump the contacts on the solenoid to bench test it in the car. One contact will activate the throw out lever and the other will spin the motor with out activating the solenoid. 

[Earl B.]

Beemon, I've been under the car.  I only got a spark and nothing else. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Earl B. (see edit history)

[buick man]

… it's most likely the starter, get under it drop it and bench break it down and test or just farm it out to a local friendly hands-on rebuilder so that way you will be  sure of getting your same one back …. also make sure the rebuilder is able to check for run out and be ale to turn the commutator true if necessary and undercut the mica in a clean fashion as well by not leaving any debris that would effect the clean operation of the brushes in an adverse fashion …

[Beemon]

The solenoid runs the starter, so if you can't get it to at least throw out, then it's the solenoid. if it throws out the pinion into the fly wheel, then it's either the armature or the contacts on the end of the solenoid. If after replacing the solenoid and it doesn't spin but throws out the pinion, then it's the armature assembly. Starters are pretty simple and easy to diagnose. The solenoid switch is pretty expensive, but between it and the actual drive pinion, there's usually all that's wrong with the starter. It's very seldom the armature is bad. If you decide to take it apart, just polish the commutator with scotchbrite and install new brushes. The bendix is pretty hard to come by these days and the made in China over the counter ones are garbage. If your drive pinion clutch turns without making noise, then reuse it. Also because the Starter is barely used, your bushings should still be okay. You can check them with a dial indicator, but when I rebuilt my starter, I put the armature in the bushing and felt for play on the end of the shaft. Lastly, if the armature is damaged in any way, finding a NOS one will be extremely hard, but for a pretty penny you can have one re-wound so long as the core is mostly intact.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

If you find the solenoid is pulling in but the internal contact is not driving the motor the solenoid can be disassembled. The contact switch is a thick copper disc that contacts two copper studs. The disc can  be flipped over and the studs rotated which in essence "rebuilds" the contact assembly. Quick, easy, far cheaper, and with an added dose of self satisfaction than buying a new one................Bob

[avgwarhawk]

The old method of tapping the side of the starter with a hammer sometimes jars the innards loose again so it can work.  Normally once you are at this point the starter is on the way out.       

[Earl B.]

How do I test the solenoid?  How do I test the starter?   I have it off the car.

[JohnO]

 Your will need:

1) Jumper cables

2) A fully charged battery

3) A wire to get voltage to the "S" terminal on the starter.

 

 

My method for testing the starter off the car is as follows:

 

1) Connect jumper cables to the starter. The positive will go to the larger post where the original battery cable was and the negative will go to the starter housing (preferably around the holes where the starter bolted in to the block. Make sure the cable does not interfere with the starter gear.

 

2) Run the wire from the battery to the "S" terminal. I think the safest way to do it is to cut the wire in two: The first wire should have an alligator clip to clip to the terminal. The other a ring terminal to connect to the battery. Obviously the two wires have to be joined to complete the connection. I recommend a generic switch which can be purchased at an Auto parts store. I'm sure there are many other ways.

 

If your sure your connection is good, the starter should function. If not, then the starter is bad.

[NC-car-guy]

For step # 2, you can buy a remote starter switch at the auto stores.  It comes with nice long leads for doing similar work under the hood of the car.  I think mine was around $15, but has proved very valuable.

[Beemon]

JohnO, you forgot the other jump. Jumping from S to battery will cause it to activate the plunger for the pinion and energize the armature. But if you jump to the other terminal, it should just spin the armature. A good way to test to see if it's either the armature or the solenoid, since jumping to the other terminal bypasses the pinion contact points and goes straight to the motor.

[Earl B.]

I know I don't know things, but have enough sense to ask before I goof something up---What, where is the S terminal.

[Bhigdog]

6 hours ago, Earl B. said:

I know I don't know things, but have enough sense to ask before I goof something up---What, where is the S terminal.

 

The S terminal is on the back side of the solenoid and should be so marked. The starter/solenoid cut away view is quite nicely illustrated on page 10-42 of your shop manual. The cranking system section of your shop manual also has complete instructions on testing and repair of your starting system.

You do have a shop manual don't you? Without it you are just blindly dicking around, possibly doing more harm than good. That also goes for all the systems in your car.

So, if you do own a shop manual sit down and read section 10-36.You will then know the things you don't know now.

If you don't own a shop manual, do procure one. They are not expensive and usually will answer all your questions before you even knew you had a question.

Failing all of that you can continue to beat around the bush, right here, and have all your questions answered. Some of the answers may even be correct..........Bob

[JohnO]

7 hours ago, Beemon said:

JohnO, you forgot the other jump. Jumping from S to battery will cause it to activate the plunger for the pinion and energize the armature. But if you jump to the other terminal, it should just spin the armature. A good way to test to see if it's either the armature or the solenoid, since jumping to the other terminal bypasses the pinion contact points and goes straight to the motor.

You don't need another jump. The "S" terminal activates the solenoid that makes the connection to engage the starter. The other terminal is the "R" terminal which if used, bypasses the ballast resistor to provide a full 12 volts directly to the coil while the ignition is in the start position. In laymen terms the "S" is an input terminal and the "R" is an output terminal. Now, my experience is limited to two starters that I tested. In my opinion, whether the problem is with the solenoid or the inner workings of the starter, I would take it to an electrical rebuilder. 

[JohnO]

13 hours ago, wndsofchng06 said:

For step # 2, you can buy a remote starter switch at the auto stores.  It comes with nice long leads for doing similar work under the hood of the car.  I think mine was around $15, but has proved very valuable.

Great idea!

[Earl B.]

Bob, I looked for my shop manual but could not find it.  I picked up another one on ebay  Hopefully I can check the starter and solenoid on

Saturday or Sunday. 

[Bhigdog]

6 hours ago, Earl B. said:

Bob, I looked for my shop manual but could not find it.  I picked up another one on ebay  Hopefully I can check the starter and solenoid on

Saturday or Sunday. 

 

Excellent. I suggest you start by reading section 10-32 which explains the operation of the start motor. Knowing how it works helps understand why it's not working. Good luck....................Bob

[Beemon]

In the mean time, bookmark this page and start reading up.

 

https://www.hometownbuick.com/portfolio/1955-buick-shop-manual/?portfolioCats=116

[Earl B.]

Well, I got the starter off the car and tested it....works like a charm.  Where can I get the rubber piece on the end of the solenoid?

 

What do I check next?????    thanks to all, Earl

[Beemon]

Make sure to have it load tested before reinstalling! Any major auto parts store should be able to do it. 

 

Check 12v to the battery wire at the starter end. If good, check 12v to the switch at the starter end with a helper on the gas pedal. If you're getting 12v to the starter, it's the starter. 

[Bhigdog]

7 hours ago, Earl B. said:

Where can I get the rubber piece on the end of the solenoid?

 

NAPA store.......................Bob

[JohnD1956]

Earl, Have you verified the engine itself is not stuck ( Bhigdogs post #6 above)?  If the engine is free, and the starter is working on your bench, then you may want to check the ground terminal where it attaches to the motor.  Don't know for certain where that is on your 55 but on the 56 the ground from the battery is attached to the drivers side motor mount.  This connection should be removed, cleaned and reattached.  I would also consider replacing the positive cables, both of them, if they have never been replaced. From the battery to the junction box on the fender, and from the junction box on the fender to the starter motor.  There are times when they get deteriorated under the insulation.  They look great from the outside, but are compromised and cannot carry sufficient current.  

As to the rubber piece, I concur on the NAPA suggestion, otherwise I would check with Bob's  Automobelia in California. However I would not think the rubber boot is ultra critical.

[old-tank]

10 hours ago, Earl B. said:

and tested it

how was it tested?

[Earl B.]

Willie, I carried the starter to a starter/generator repair shop.  He bench tested it and it ran great.

[old-tank]

Before you put it on, either install a known good starter or have the brushes and bushings replaced.  I have had starters that passed the 'bench test', but struggled under load because of worn bushings and brushes.

[Rooster]

When the bearings / bushings wear the unit is said to be " poleing "  That is, the armature starts to rub against the stator winding core and can make a grunting noise and potentially jam up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Earl B.]

My NAPA store can't find the solenoid boot.  The salesman wanted to know if any of you could get the part number for him.  He searched and I've searched at home, and can't find anything either.....   Thanks in advance, Earl

 

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, Earl B. said:

My NAPA store can't find the solenoid boot.  The salesman wanted to know if any of you could get the part number for him.  He searched and I've searched at home, and can't find anything either.....   Thanks in advance, Earl

 

 

Seems to me I bought two and have one still in the box. Ready to walk out the door to go to dinner. I'll look tomorrow unless someone else pops up with the answer before then.............Bob

[Bhigdog]

I do have a boot but no ID on it. Cars Inc, the NJ Buick guys, have one listed @ $11.50................Bob

[Earl B.]

I'll get it ordered tonight.  Thank you Bob!

[60FlatTop]

On 6/15/2017 at 9:29 AM, Earl B. said:

I carried the starter to a starter/generator repair shop.  He bench tested it and it ran great.

I had an exercise bike with a tensioner for resistance. Turning the knob counterclockwise was always the best position for me. Years ago they had a torque measuring device for testing starters. I asked a shop about that and they told me they don't do that any more. Then I watched a guy test a starter another time. I asked if he was going to put the armature in a growler. He said they don't do that any more.

 

After I, the amateur, and the professionals checked it over in our own ways, I put a new armature in because "I didn't like the ohmic readings I was getting across the wsindings". It has been working fine ever since.

 

My Father would say "Some gemoke in a shop making the motor spin is demonstrating he doesn't know how to test a starter."

[Rooster]

A growler Bernie refers to looks like this ------

[Bhigdog]

3 hours ago, Rooster said:

A growler Bernie refers to looks like this ------

 

Not quite complete set up. you need a thin steel strip (hack saw blade) on the top of each segment to see if it vibrates (growls).................Bob

[Earl B.]

How do I get the bushing out of the rear cover without destroying the cover?  Many thanks, Earl

[Bhigdog]

Couple of three ways. Fill the bushing 1/2 full of grease and drive a tight fitting rod or dowel into the bushing. Hydraulic pressure of the grease acting behind the bushing forces it up and out. Or: Run a tap into the bushing and either bottom the tap out to push it up  or use a bolt and slide hammer to pull it. Or: If you have a lathe or vertical milling machine cut most of it out and pick out the rest.

Grease and dowel is simplest  but messy. I like simple.

If you go the grease method make sure you support the cover at the bottom and not on the sides or you will warp it...............Bob

Edited June 25, 2017 by Bhigdog (see edit history)