322 engine tear down

[old-tank]

Heavy deposits like the one plug can be caused by coolant (antifreeze) leaks into that cylinder, but there will usually be rust on the plug threads (if you had only water in the cooling system it would be the cleanest plug).  If you are going to disassemble the engine, then you will soon find out if the thicker heads gaskets were used.  My readings were like that for  80,000 miles on a set of cylinder heads that had severe exhaust and intake valve seat recession, increasing the chamber volume.  Reading now are near 140 with the Egge pistons (lower compression compromise) compared to 160 for my cars with original pistons.  Oil at the base of the plug can be caused by inadequate tightening.

[NTX5467]

In my (much) younger days, I felt the need to get a compression tester.  I got one of the screw-in models from Sears Craftsman tools.  It worked as advertised.  I tried to do things as my MOTOR manual said.  On an acknowledged good-performing engine, it seemed it was more trouble than it was worth to go to the trouble to do this test.  I tried it with the throttle at base idle, with the throttle open, added a little motor oil to the cylinder and re-checked, all of that.  I STRONGLY CONCUR that cylinder balance is much more important than "pure numbers"!

 

I heard some older guys (at that time) talking about supercharged Studebaker motors and how one of their friends had one that had 260psi of compression and how strong it ran.  Considering the specs I'd seen on some other motors, that was VERY high indeed.  I searched for some factory specs and those numbers weren't that high.  So, how did they get compression check numbers THAT high?  A "mystery" I never figured out, but I did find out what all affects cranking compression.  Remember, the more cranking compression there is, the more the starter has to work AND the added strain on the battery and electrical system in order to simply make the car start!

 

Basically, any service manual compression numbers will be under "ideal" conditions.  That, like the SAE horsepower ratings, would include a physical elevation above sea level (at sea level), a particular ambient temperature, possibly a certain atmospheric pressure, AND "new" engine condition.  In other words, "optimized" for best results on an engine just off the assembly line and possibly run-in on the engine stand (at the engine plant) for about 30 minutes BEFORE it goes to the hot and cold tests prior to shipment to the assembly plant.  AND, with a known and somewhat consistent factory bore and hone job.  To me, unless all of these factors are met, what happens "in the field" can vary in pure numbers generation.  Kind of like what happens when "gross" horsepower ratings meet the reality of exhaust systems and engine-driven accessories, much less how much is absorbed by the drivetrain and tires before the vehicle moves from rest.

 

The accumulation on that one spark plug is probably nothing terribly wrong.  I've had some that came out that way too, even tan in color.  I'd knock the accumulation off, dress and re-gap the plug, and put it back in the same hole and it works fine.  A bone white insulator is probably best, but tan deposits are fine, too.  Accumulations as you pictured are nothing seriously wrong, from my experiences.  Knock off the accumulations, dress and re-gap to specs, ensuring the "V" is still in the center electrode, re-install, and proceed happily down the road.

 

By the time you read this, you've probably already got into the motor.  In more recent history, the video probe tools have become less expensive and are now used as non-invasive diagnostic tools.  Some probes just have the video screen as others have "capture" and "memory" capabilities.  This, like the infra-red non-contact thermometers (especially the one that goes past 500 degrees F), this video probe can be a good diagnostic tool (and learning how things look without turning a wrench).

 

If more of the plugs had had accumulations as that one, the literature suggests "a clogged air cleaner".  Allowing too much particulate into the engine.

 

IF compression numbers are important to you, find an engine builder that has a Sunnen or Rotller mechanism that secures the bare block on the mains (after a line hone cleans things up), then can bore and power hone the cylinders (while the operator watches the Load Meter!!) with deck plates installed.  Circulating 180 degree F fluid through the block as all of this happens (temperature fully stabilized!) can help.  End result?  When the cylinder heads are torqued onto the assembled cylinder block, the bores are still perfectly round for optimum piston ring sealing than and better later as all of the parts learn to better live together.  All of this costs more to get done, but some mass-rebuilders are set-p to do it and it can give them a better product with fewer warranty issues.  Not an endorsement, but finding a higher-level engine shop with these capabilities can probably lead to some expensive race car engine builders.  Such an engine should be "better than new", for what it's worth.  But any of them knowing how to specifically build a Buick Nailhead can be questionable.  Building an engine from a "used core" is better than using a "green" new block as with the core block's dimensions will not "move" as the various hot/cold cycles accumulate, i.e., "cure" the metal.  Oh, and get the block decked and the cylinder heads "cc'd" so everything will be a minimum blueprint specs.

 

When my compression numbers didn't match the service manual specs, I consulted with the old-line service manager at the dealership.  He quickly and matter-of-factly stated that a compression test ONLY tests the "compression ring" and has NO real test of the oil rings or other rings below the compression ring on the piston's side.  So don't look to a compression test to check the condition of the oil rings, for example.

 

Physical mechanical compression affects cranking cylinder pressure.  Altitude and barometric pressure affect cylinder cranking pressure.  Cranking speed can affect things, too, as can how mild or wild a camshaft is in the particular-size engine.  Cylinder leakdown tests can pinpoint issues which are not yet large enough to cause performance issues (i.e., an exhaust valve just starting to "burn", but hasn't really progressed to where it affects performance) AND where they might be located in the engine.

 

There are also some other non-invasive ways to check for burnt valve issues, such as with the engine at idle, put a red shop towel over the tail pipe exit.  When the cylinder with the burnt exhaust valve is on the intake stroke, a big negative pressure pulse will result and the rag will be visibly sucked back into the pipe before the leaked compression pulse blows it back out.  This can work best on a single exhaust system.

 

Just as with using a vacuum gauge, I've never achieved the "numbers" many manuals quote, BUT I've observed the needle movement mentioned.

 

End result, you can chase "numbers" as your heart might desire, but LOOKING and HEARING and FEELING what's happening can be a better course to follow.  This can also give you a better "feel" of your engine and how it needs to be acting.  Once you get really keyed into these things, you can usually do better diagnostics (once you get past the learning curve).  Same with driving and feeling how the throttle responds to minor throttle inputs, going up hills, moving away from stop signs/red lights, etc.  Some of these learning curves are lower as others take more time.  To me, this is much more definitive on older vehicles than modern vehicles, in degree.  More things to feel and listen to!

 

I have no doubt that you got a decent rebuild on the engine, but it seems (from your various comments) that it could have been better.  I think many have had that feeling, over time.  I've also noticed that some shops can build certain engines just fine, but might have more "unseen" issues with other engines, although what we see looks the same.  Plus that what some people call "acceptable" might not be that to others.  A VARIABLE situation, by observation!  You have to learn to read others and their orientations in many judgments of "good" or "fine", which can be an acquired education of sorts.  Being in a more remote geographical location, you sometimes have to deal with what you have locally, unfortunately, but as Old-Tank mentions, you also have to know what the builder used in gaskets and such, too.

 

Look at what you have, understanding that it's not 1956 or 1960 any more and we have to deal with what's NOW available in building engines.  Some things are much better in quality and value as others are "will fit many engines" in nature, but still being of quality materials.  Some things might not meet "the numbers", but can still be at least as durable as any OEM part might have been in prior times.

 

Keep us posted on your progress!

NTX5467

 

 

[NTX5467]

Oh, one other way to check comparative compression, with the engine running.  This is a Cylinder Balance Test.  Some of the roll-around Sunn engine testers had it, plus a "scope" for ignition traces.  Punch one numbered button and deactivate ignition to that particular spark plug.  Trace disappears from the display, rpm drop, note change.  Repeat for each cylinder.  This is the sophisticated way to do it.

 

For the brave and those with a THICK rubber fender cover . . . with well-insulated shoes, or insulated spark plug pliers, OR all of these.  With the engine running, you can remove each spark plug and listen to the rpm change.  The weak cylinder will be obvious, although the engine runs smoothly with all plug wires attached, when that spark plug is disconnected.  This all happens "analog" and in "real time" AND it happens quickly.

 

You can disconnect the plug wire at the distributor cap or at the spark plug itself.  Careful to not "get bit"!  If and when that happens, involuntary muscle actions can result from your arm/hand and vocal cords, somewhat in sequence.  A variable situation, by observation!  Cheap entertainment for others, too!

 

Doing this FIRST can locate where to look, not particularly what might be found (which other diagnostic actions might further winnow-down).

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Beemon]

9 hours ago, old-tank said:

Heavy deposits like the one plug can be caused by coolant (antifreeze) leaks into that cylinder, but there will usually be rust on the plug threads (if you had only water in the cooling system it would be the cleanest plug).  If you are going to disassemble the engine, then you will soon find out if the thicker heads gaskets were used.  My readings were like that for  80,000 miles on a set of cylinder heads that had severe exhaust and intake valve seat recession, increasing the chamber volume.  Reading now are near 140 with the Egge pistons (lower compression compromise) compared to 160 for my cars with original pistons.  Oil at the base of the plug can be caused by inadequate tightening.

 

I'm a bit worried now. Not that I wasn't worried before. I'm starting to think the guy that rebuilt my engine charged me hefty but put cheap parts in the engine and just did a really poor valve grind. The one spark plug could also be an indication of a hardened valve seat cracking?

 

The low compression is what worries me the most. Even if the low compression gaskets were used, my uncle shaved the heads in the 80s to give it higher compression before letting it sit and I'm sure when the shop resurfaced my heads, it would have added a little bit more. Knowing that, and differences with gaskets, I still expected it to ballpark right at 140-150. As it so happens, a gentleman just uncovered a 1955 264 crate motor near me. I'm not sure what he wants for it, but it might be a good substitute until I get all this figured out. I'm going to take the car up to another shop out on the edge of the mountains an hour away from me. It came from great praise now from two different people in two different regions around here, and I'll be taking the car for it's last drive to confirm suspicions. He's an old boy I've been told who does old engines for hobbyists. I know what my numbers are, but it doesn't hurt to get more opinions even though it all points to one conclusion... I will just need a reliable shop to fall back on when the time comes.

[NTX5467]

The fact the heads have been cut and then surfaced later could be interesting.  Not in that both things were done, but on what equipment?  The "rotating rock" surfacer or a cutting lathe surfacer (which has a much higher degree of control of how much is cut).  The hardened insert itself might not crack, but the metal around it might be, given other information in threads about how much less metal is in that area than in other engines.

 

Modern "cheap parts" are really not that bad, just that I'd term then for use in "used car lot" motors or "30K mile" motors.  Motors which are "new/rebuilt", which can be a selling point, but were done "very economically" in parts costs.  At your 5K miles, there should be no issues in that area.  If it was at 50K and using oil or whatever, then your "money's worth" would be operable.

 

In ANY event, don't "bad mouth" the first overhauler, just mention that you've been having some issues and need to get them addressed.  That you'd like a full disassembly and inspection to see what's wrong in there before proceeding.  Once you've seen the innards, a decision can be formulated to move forward.  IF you have any questions about what is found, you can ask us in here.  BUT, remember that this guy must be respected and hopefully you can guide him a little regarding which parts are used.  Every engine builder has their own preferences as to what's worked best for them, in the past.  He might even have access into the "rebuilder white box" parts, which are name-brand parts you see advertised but available to "the industry" at prices much less than to retail customers in their name-brand boxes.  You want the best outcome and he's the one to make it happen . . . with whatever items he deems applicable.  Worst case scenario?  You might need another rebuildable block.

 

My generic standard for engine things is "at least OEM-quality parts", which with correct machine work, should result in a 100K durability motor.  Modern lubes and such, from the "after the first oil change at 3K miles) can make that happen.  Some of those-spec parts are not nearly as expensive as the OEM parts were when the car was new, which is a good deal.  Some upgrades to a rubber rear main seal might happen, too?  Although he's a bit away from your location, consider making a few "progress" visits, but once he starts, it'll probably happen somewhat quickly.   Let him source all of the parts, although y'all can talk about what he uses as he might have sources you don't know about, plus some old paper catalogs with part numbers (OEM and replacement vendor) that might still be available.  Y'all talk about it.  Y'all become friends.  Ask questions.  Pay when asked. 

 

The crate motor which has been "found"?  Any assembly lubes used have probably evaporated by now, so it would need a major look-see inside BEFORE thinking of using it--period.  A newer GM crate motor that has been "fire tested" (i.e., run rather than just assembled) is a different situation.  There were some of the old LS7 Chevy 454 crate motors which were just assembled as a way to package the parts for sale.  They came with no oil filter installed, just a piece of craft paper in the oil filter cut-out on the block.  My machine shop operative always disassembled them for inspection BEFORE they went into a car.  Those that were not inspected, had to be later torn-down due to debris internally (in some cases, rust in the oil passages) anyway.  So, that Buick crate motor, in its current state, is just an assemblage of parts, assembled on the Buick engine assembly line, and at this time, nothing more.  It is what it is, but it's not ready for prime time as it sits!

 

Please keep us posted.

NTX5467

[Beemon]

Willis, for clarification the only rebuilder id bad mouth is the original rebuilder, and not this new guy. I was looking for the warranty information this morning after work when I recalled he filed bankruptcy to get out of another warranty before closing his shop on my motor. A man is only as good as his word, and you can't trust someone who can't face the music... I'm still looking for the paper work. At the very least, some pay back would be nice. The new guy I found out about came from me poking around the junkyard yesterday and a close friend of his, who happened to see me under the hood of a 57, told me about him. He runs his own shop across the street from the only ethanol free station (a good 45 minutes out of my way). Turns out he's also really good friends with the owner of the shop my would be rebuilder works at. Reputation is everything, and with social media it can really destroy a person. Word of mouth is spreading about my engine, but I think it'll be worth it plopping my destroyed heads down on the counter if the seats are cracked. I can't get the $4200 I spent saving for 2 years in anticipation of driving the car I fell in love with looking at 20 years ago, but I can get some satisfaction in ruining a shoddy machinists reputation...

[Beemon]

It must be my luck, though. I've been screwed on everything I've had rebuilt by someone else in the hobby. It almost makes a newcomer like me not even want to bother with old cars anymore. At this point it's not even fun or enjoyable anymore, fixing others mistakes and being out hundreds of dollars.

[Beemon]

Found the bill and balance sheet but no warranty, must be over at my grandpa's.

 

I guess they didn't understand the crank was externally balanced, but I guess it doesn't matter. I always figured there was a new cam in there, but I guess it was the originals with some cheap lifters (one has a really bad tick). I wouldn't be surprised if I needed a new cam now. Looks like I have a "new" timing chain in there, too, which explains so much. I guess I was being too optimistic with my $4200 figure, but I guess I paid $4700 for a bad job.

[NTX5467]

Thanks for the pictures and information.  At this point in time, until the innards of the engine are actually disassembled and an autopsy of sorts is conducted on it, there might be some issues which have been found and possibly diagnosed, BUT until everything's laid on the workbench and the bare block is on an engine stand, naked to the world, any orientations about paying for something that was done improperly is pure conjecture.  Therefore, less said to the new guy might be best.  Certainly, he will need to know the basic information of why this all is happening.  A Joe Friday "Just the facts . . . " situation so he knows what he might be looking for and why.

 

When my Dad bought our '69 Chevy pickup, it seemingly came with engine problems.  One of the dealership guys attributed it to a car deal gone bad and the fact it was dealer-transferred from another dealer about an hour's drive away.  And that apparently on the way back, it was run too hard too quick.  Later, under warranty for an engine piston knock, they put in two pistons and a connecting rod.  Then things were quiet and it ran better.  But issues still kept arising every so often, even a hint of piston knock when cold.  Eventually, a replacement short block (what we really wanted for a good while!) was put in toward the end of the factory 50K mile engine warranty.  During that time, I read and researched and talked to some people about the real issues might be.  Until the short block was replaced, it seemed to be something every so often.  Some of it was due to whom Dad had found to work on it (we tried all different "advice" from others that really didn't make a significant "dent" in things).  In some cases, it came back worse than it went in, which didn't help either!

 

My machine shop operative had been through some of situations you've had too, ever the years . . . as I've had to deal with over the years, too, where somebody else got a customer the wrong part.  Having to fix somebody else's prior "indiscretions" was necessary, but it took a full investigation to see how what happened happened as the discovery phase progressed.  UNTIL that discovery phase is completed and a  determination of the particular chain of events is evident, no real fix and way to move forward can happen.  You never know what will be found, although some strong suspicions might exist.  Hopefully, the new guy will be open about what he finds and show you what he did find.  IF things are as you have described over time, there should be plenty to look at!  AND you'll need to trust HIS judgment and ask for HIS recommendations that both of y'all can talk about and decide how to proceed.

 

As for a "ticking lifter", we've chased those too.  But this was over many thousands of miles, not just 5K miles.  Looking in the obvious places didn't fix that sound.  One time, on the warranty short block, we did find a lifter with a hole in the contact surface where it rubs against the cam lobe.  The cam lobe was fine, so a new lifter fixed that one.

 

At this point in time, you know what you've seen and shared with us.  You've heard and felt how the engine operates and the non-typical-Nailhead sounds it might have made or is making.  We all understand that and can relate to some of them from our own experiences, as many of us have offered possible issues.  There might be some evolved thoughts of why things are the way things are, but you also have to respect the knowledge and expertise of the original rebuilder, as "bad" as it might be and the problems which you've been dealing with.  At this point in time, all you (or anybody else in your situation) desires is to get things fixed right, things work right, and be done with it.  Disparaging words about the first guy won't fix anything.

 

Many engine machine shops, especially private shops that don't do installations and such, normally don't have "warranty coverage" on anything they didn't do.  They have no control of how the engine was started initially, as they didn't do it.  And if it's a "high performance" or "race engine", even less warranty coverage.  This might seem counter to what most consumers might desire, but that's the pattern I have seen.  If some issue results from a rebuild they did, if it's something they did, they fix it.  If there is no mechanical problem with what they did, customer pays.  IF there was an issue with assembly of the motor, other than a wear-related issue, it should show up reasonably soon, as you've experienced.

 

It's easy to put 2+2 together and get "5" in your case.  The guy does your motor, no real written warranty, then closes the shop and works for somebody else about the time your issues began.  It can be inferred that he got out of town before the sheriff arrived, but we don't know what other things motivated that perceived situation.  Perhaps he needed healthcare coverage and wanted somebody else's insurance plan to cover it?  Who really knows?  He DID do work and you paid him. I know you would have liked to have some recourse in this matter, but sometimes seeking that getting recourse can be more stressful than enduring the issues which arose from the work that was done.  Twenty years ago, some auto supplies were selling reman Chevy 350 short blocks for $299.95 (from an out-of-state mass rebuilder) as my machine shop associate's normal long block rebuild was about $1500.00.  The consumer would see two short blocks which looked the same, they'd go for the "best paint" or look usually, although my guy's long block would have known bulletproof machine work and innards that were "right".

 

The new guy sounds like he is probably a good engine builder and hopefully should know that a Nailhead doesn't "build" like a Chevy motor might, although there can be some similarities.  I'm hoping things work out well this time.  I hope he will be open and share what he finds and tell you why it might have happened this way. It can be a great learning experience for you, by observation.  But you MUST trust him and his judgment.  Paying double is never any fun, but sometimes necessary to discover what the first time should have been.  Life is a learning experience and has some costs . . . whether in time or money . . . so we know what to do next time.

 

Other thing is that both of these guys might know or have knowledge of each other.  Even friends?  Which is one reason to head into this new relationship in a "fix it" orientation rather than otherwise.  If things work out as I suspect, all of the things you might have wanted to say will be said by the new guy, at which time you can smile and agree.  Let HIM say them, though!  When and IF that happens, he'll know you wanted to say them, reasonably, too.

 

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

3 hours ago, Beemon said:

It must be my luck, though. I've been screwed on everything I've had rebuilt by someone else in the hobby. It almost makes a newcomer like me not even want to bother with old cars anymore. At this point it's not even fun or enjoyable anymore, fixing others mistakes and being out hundreds of dollars.

 

Don't feel like the "lone ranger" in this respect.  This is why many people I know "in the hobby" have accumulated large numbers of tools OR accumulated large bank accounts to pay others to do the work.  One former customer learned to paint for this reason, as did several of his friends in the hobby.  Of course, this was when you could shoot acrylic lacquer in your driveway or garage on a calm night and it turned out good.  Another guy paid somebody he felt was "knowledgeable" to restore a factory muscle car.  He paid "good money" for what he got . . . a "hack" job.  Then he found another guy that really knew what was correct and who's heritage was in his Dad's large mechanic shop and then everything was re-done correctly with a great outcome.  Sometimes, it takes twice, unfortunately, whether you're doing it yourself or you're paying somebody else that first time.

 

After watching somebody do things once, I'd see there was no real secret to it, so I'd figure I could do that myself . . . and did.  That felt great when it worked out well!  But there were some things I felt best about letting known-good people do other things I wasn't or didn't want to invest in getting set-up to do.  One way to make new friends and share experiences . . . that "bonding" situation that is mutually beneficial and, as a result, everybody wants the best outcomes.  Some times, a quality control check might be needed, just to make sure or after there have been a little time for things to settle in.

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

 

[1956322]

Just going off of the plugs I'd guess bottom end is fine but something's up with the heads guessing in the guide area

[old-tank]

Here is for  comparison the bob weight record on my 322.  It was balanced with the harmonic balancer and flexplate/flywheel attached.

Piston, pin, locks    785 gram

Rings                  57 gram
Recip rod             184 gram
Rot rod               464 gram
Bearings               52 gram
Oil                     4 gram
Total                2063 gram

 

Somebody further up the food chain will have to interpret the differences.

 

[Beemon]

So I'm thinking worst case scenario here, and will most likely be hunting for new heads, but what can I do to combat the low compression pistons? Maybe shave the heads and block deck to the proper compression ratio? I also heard using 55 heads on a 56 increases compression? Would I run into any valve clearance issues? The heads will be coming off today if I have time before work, tomorrow at the latest.

[old-tank]

If you can get that 55 264 engine cheap enough use those heads (also crank and rods if late engine if needed).  55 heads with 56 pistons will give higher compression than 56 heads.  But some 56 aftermarket pistons will hit the head, so that will need to carefully checked out.  I have a set (+0.030) of NORS Sealed Power 56 pistons (paid way-way too much for) that I was going to use  in my 55 someday.  See what you have when it is opened up...

[Guest]

Regards head choice: Ive read that part of the increase in hp in 56 over 55 was due to whats called "unshrouding" the valves. With that in mind, if lower compression pistons is all thats available, couldnt one have the 56 heads shaved slightly to avoid missalignment of course, but isnt a .010 cut allowble for resurfacing to straight when doing the heads? Seems like a combo to preserve the better flow might be worthy of consideration?

[Beemon]

So some good news and bad news. The good news: I met with the machinist today, he's a retired Boeing engineer who builds mostly high performance engines for the local Pacific Raceway teams. He says he wants to see the short block to mic out the pistons in the bore and check for proper valve clearance. He said he won't do any work unless he can physically see it. He will hone the bore to 200 grit and then install Chevy 327 chromoly rings. He also wants to see the cylinder heads, too, to check valve clearance both in the guide and at the seat/rocker. He said most likely I should start looking for new heads, though, but will hold judgement until it comes time. He also told me to do a leakdown test. Lastly, he demanded I bring him the shop manual so we can go over checking clearances. And he wants me to be there when he does it all. For honing and re-ringing the block he wants $270 and if I come up with some unmolested 56 322 heads, he wants $400 for them combined to do the total valve job.

 

The bad news: His work at Boeing was mostly clearance checking, bearings and machining. He is fairly certain that from what I've told him about the water jacket design, that the heads will eventually fail. He said even though we can check the grind, fix and slap the heads back together for $100, that he would feel much more comfortable with clean, original heads. The two 56s near me don't have heads and the largest classic car yard in Washington doesn't have heads. There are some heads on Ebay right now for $250, but would like to find something closer, since shipping is $180...

[NTX5467]

You'd need to see the '55 and '56 heads side-by-side to see if there is ANY difference in the configuration of the combustion chamber in the intake valve area.

 

For example, there are two differences between an early Z/28 cylinder head and the 350/300 cylinder head, although they are related, as the basic heads are physically the same (port size, chamber size, etc).  The 350/300 head valve sizes are 1.94/1.50 (intake/exhaust).  The Z/28 head has 2.02/1.60 valve sizes.  It is possible to put the Z/38 valves in the 350/300 head, but the edge of the intake valve is very close to the edge of the chamber, which shrouds and basically kills any additional flow from the larger valve.  The difference in the two heads is a "machining operation" which cuts a radius in the edge of the chamber by the intake valve, "unshrouding" it or clearancing the edge of the chamber for the larger valve.  So, is the '56 head just "clearance" or is the unshrouding cast into the chamber?  My suspicion is that if it's cast in, that might explain the need for different pistons (different domes?).

 

From what you mention, things look pretty good, as to the machinist.  I also like that he wants you there to observe and see what he finds!

 

NTX5467

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Beemon said:

So some good news and bad news. The good news: I met with the machinist today, he's a retired Boeing engineer who builds mostly high performance engines for the local Pacific Raceway teams. He says he wants to see the short block to mic out the pistons in the bore and check for proper valve clearance. He said he won't do any work unless he can physically see it. He will hone the bore to 200 grit and then install Chevy 327 chromoly rings. He also wants to see the cylinder heads, too, to check valve clearance both in the guide and at the seat/rocker. He said most likely I should start looking for new heads, though, but will hold judgement until it comes time. He also told me to do a leakdown test. Lastly, he demanded I bring him the shop manual so we can go over checking clearances. And he wants me to be there when he does it all. For honing and re-ringing the block he wants $270 and if I come up with some unmolested 56 322 heads, he wants $400 for them combined to do the total valve job.

 

The bad news: His work at Boeing was mostly clearance checking, bearings and machining. He is fairly certain that from what I've told him about the water jacket design, that the heads will eventually fail. He said even though we can check the grind, fix and slap the heads back together for $100, that he would feel much more comfortable with clean, original heads. The two 56s near me don't have heads and the largest classic car yard in Washington doesn't have heads. There are some heads on Ebay right now for $250, but would like to find something closer, since shipping is $180...

Buyer beware! Are the heads cleaned and mag checked for cracks? Are the seats rusted beyond recutting? eBay is usually as is, which in the case of cyl heads can vary from excellent to totally unusable.

[Beemon]

I've secured cover for the car so we can tear into it starting either end of this week or next week for sure. I've been looking for camshaft specifics, but can't seem to find any in the shop manual. Does anyone know what the camshaft specs are for a stock 1956? The only thing I can find is specs for a solid lifter cam in 1956, which I guess could work for a cut if needed, but would like to know stock.

[dei]

While i have never dealt with them, have you considered trying to contact EGGE?

They seem to be the go to company for engine parts and might have the information you are looking for.

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, Beemon said:

I've secured cover for the car so we can tear into it starting either end of this week or next week for sure. I've been looking for camshaft specifics, but can't seem to find any in the shop manual. Does anyone know what the camshaft specs are for a stock 1956? The only thing I can find is specs for a solid lifter cam in 1956, which I guess could work for a cut if needed, but would like to know stock.

 

I do not have camshaft specifics but it was found that my 54 has 56 cam/lifters/push rods. The entire engine was rebuilt in 2006 by the previous owner.    I'm certain that rebuild kits available on the market are for the 56 nailheads.  When I was have what I thought a lifter issue I ordered lifters for a 54.  I received 56 lifters.  I then found I had 56 push rods. 

 

Anyway, let me know how it goes with finding heads.  I have a set of 54 264 heads ready to go.  

     

[old-tank]

Good luck!  

I have never found the stock cam specs for any 322.  Egge cams work well for me; Russ Martin will sell an asymmetric cam without specs; Schneider has some too.  Some cams sold as 56 are just 401 cams with the journals ground to fit a 322.

Read the threads by Mudbone an KAD36 for the most recent builds.  Ken's 55 pulls like a freight train.

The last thing you need is a solid lifter cam which is more than likely a high performance grind which will move the torque and power curve up a few hundred rpm a make it a slug with dynaflow and your highway rear gears.

Good luck!

[old-tank]

Buick engine rebuild 6-5.xlsx

Hope this file works on the forum...

[Beemon]

Willie, thanks for the info. The build sheet doesn't have a camshaft bill in it so I'm going to assume it's stock for now. When we pull, I'll do a rough measurement and see what I come up with. Russ has this on his website for the 56 solid lifter cam: 212 duration @ .050, valve lift .420 lift and 111 LSA  .015 valve lash. That's pretty close to what's in that excell file.

[old-tank]

2 hours ago, Beemon said:

That's pretty close to what's in that excell file.

Not that close.  And the file has the values calculated for 1:6 rockers; yours has 1:5 rockers.  Ken is an engineer that analyzed everything down to a gnat's whisker.  And don't buy that cam or any other from that vendor.

[Beemon]

1 hour ago, old-tank said:

 And the file has the values calculated for 1:6 rockers; yours has 1.5 rockers.

 

Not for very much longer. I found a 64 and 65 in a regular salvage yard so the distributor was only $20 and each arm assembly was $20 as well (alternator bracket was $7, I've seen them for much more online). The set on the left I would say is a core but the set on the right was extremely clean, the engine still had a heavy coat of paint like it had been totaled in the last 10 years. 

[old-tank]

11 minutes ago, Beemon said:

 

Not for very much longer. I found a 64 and 65 in a regular salvage yard so the distributor was only $20 and each arm assembly was $20 as well (alternator bracket was $7, I've seen them for much more online). The set on the left I would say is a core but the set on the right was extremely clean, the engine still had a heavy coat of paint like it had been totaled in the last 10 years. 

Good score!

[NTX5467]

I concur, good scores!  Especially the distributor, for good measure.

 

IF you get into the Master Catalog for some cam manufacturers (of which there are few compared to cam sellers), you'll find a list of lobe specs for custom grind camshafts.  For some o the older engines, you'll need to supply a core for them to "work"(??).  LOTS of things to mix and match!  The cam specs for Russ' cam look very close to what many sell for (advertised duration) 250-260 degree cams in lift, duration @ .050", and the other things.

 

I know we had 401s for many years, but if the '59s were "famous" for their lumpy idle and such, due to the longer duration, that cam would probably be too much for a smaller 322cid engine.  Sometimes, cam specs aren't listed as such, but some tings can be hidden in the sub-section on intake and exhaust valves (i.e., valve lift).  Although the SAE specs are formulated from a minimum amount of lobe lift from the base circle, a little different for intake and exhaust, the "duration at .050" is a relatively new standard from the aftermarket vendors as some "advertised" durations were not all measured the same.  "Relatively new" = from about the late 1970s or earlier 1980s.

 

Take care,

NTX5467

[KAD36]

Following!

 

Been away for a while.  Radiator and windshields.....

 

Beemon - PM sent

 

Ken

 

[Beemon]

Got a little bit ahead of myself yesterday, but I took to refurbishing the 401 distributor.

 

 

It was outright about $100 for cap, rotor, points, condenser and vac can. The guy at the counter tried to sell me cheap unipoints, but I'd rather them be separate so I don't have to junk the whole pile if one or the other goes bad. Also the cap was "NOS" from probably 20 years ago, still made in the good ol' USA. The road draft tube had to come off for the vac can to sit right in the original slot, so I plugged it with a rubber pipe plug (the screw in kind). The machinist I'm going to told me it was probably best to run the PCV system to alleviate any crankcase vapors, so I don't need the road draft tube anymore. I have to go back to the yard with the 401s to get the correct valley cover so it looks nice, they only want $14 for it. Also wanted to mention that the weights and springs out of the 56 distributor translater over to the 401 distributor no problem, so now I have a late model distributor that has been recurved to a stock distributor. I didn't measure the advance cam that the springs attach to, but it looks pretty close to the original one from the 56. Obviously no performance boost, but price wise I would do it again. $15 for a vacuum advance vs $90? Also for some reason around here they stopped selling the distributor rotor for the 56 distributor, unless you put in $25 for special order. Caps are still here, but also pretty pricey. Setting the dwell was also really nice, too. No more bumping the starter or trying to gap it properly.

 

 

Also playing with the alternator bracket and thinking about ways to mount the vacuum pump. I think I've got it down, bolt on to outer hole, then make a T or L bracket to go off the other two holes on the pump. On the T or L, I'm going to get LH and RH heim joints with some all thread welded to a nut so I can set the adjustment up top. The alternator adjustment arm also needs some fixing, since it's been opened up a little towards the end. A few blows with the hammer should fix that up.

 

I also went out today to the classic yard to pick up some things. I've been trying to get this timing cover off a 57 for three weeks now and finally got a puller to remove the harmonic balancer. I ran out of time today because I never wake up early enough, but next week it comes home with me for $50. The water pump mounting flange is still flat and true, as I expect for a cast iron timing cover. I really wanted to go with the TA Performance $300 timing cover, but this is now a budget build since there's only 2 months left before I leave for Washington State. If I do end up getting the TA Performance aluminum cover, NAPA still sells the 401/425 water pump, which has the same pulley snout as the 56, but is 5 vanes instead of 3. And for $50, which may be worth it if they're still making them new vs my stock 56 pump.

 

[NTX5467]

The "Uni-Points" were NOT a "cheap alternative" to separate points and condenser.  When GM went to windshield antennas, guess what's only inches from that antenna AND could pickup ignition noise on the radio?  The ignition points and their "sparking" activities.  So, the "advance" was to make the points and condenser into a unitized item AND put a metal shield (two-piece) over that item to shield "the points sparking" from the antenna itself.  FM radio was becoming more popular, with its better frequency response, so any ignition noise was not desired.

 

As things progressed, Uni-Point was not needed as later radios obviously received upgraded circuits to better decrease any ignition noise.  Or perhaps the engineer who desired the UniPoints went to work in another department AND the additional cost of the Uni-Points and shielding were deemed "expendable" as pricing issues became tighter with later models, pre-HEI?  Resistor spark plugs became standard, too.

 

I understand your reasoning behind getting the normal points and condenser separately, but the "cheap" Uni-Point are not really "cheap".

 

It appears that the vac advance can on the old distributor has vacuum curve adjustments via added washers to the vacuum nipple, in order to make the vacuum advance start at a specified minimum vacuum level.  The new can probably has a similar adjustment, but hidden and done with an Allen head "wrench".  If you have a hand-held vacuum pump, you can check the "Advance Starts" spec with the service manual spec.  The total amount of vacuum advance, in distributor degrees, should be stamped on the shank of the mounting bracket.

 

I concur that a PCV system is better than the factory draft tube.  GM SAE Papers on early PCV system proposals bear out the decrease in sludge formation from better forced ventilation of the crankcase.  Most modern carburetors are metered to compensate for that "controlled vacuum leak", too.

 

Keep us posted!

NTX5467

[avgwarhawk]

I like unipoints and the  cap with door  to access the adjustable hex wrench feature. Makes dwell adjustment easy.  

 

I believe the vacuum can hex adjustment feature is inside the vacuum port itself.  Been sometime since I fooled with one.  

Edited May 28, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[KAD36]

Beemon- while not a camshaft expert by any means, a couple things I learned the hard way was to measure everything and take suppliers advice with a grain of salt. Trust your instincts and ask folks here who have been there/done that for facts.

 

In short if you get labeled an "amateur hobbyist" by folks in the industry and want your car to run, any camshaft sold will work and your engine will run fine and you will be happy.  No worries there. Really.

 

However if you want a certain sweet spot for your engine in terms of power band across a given rpm range, only buy a cam from a supplier that has enough knowledge of their product that they can quote the specification of what they are selling, ensure the measurements are consistent with the results you would expect from the profile and know what was in the factory engines and how it compares.  If I had to do this over again that is 1 rule I would not concede on.  And I'd get a cam card with the cam.  One other thing I learned was some suppliers have some pretty darn strong opinions on camshafts and only what they say will work in a nailhead will work in a nailhead.  Baloney.  It became so agitating, I chose to not engage in arguments.  I was trying to solve a problem not prove a point, and this was supposed to be fun.  A 322 is not as well represented as a 401 or a 455 for aftermarket purposes and options are few.  In my book if you can't quote specifications of precision parts you represent and understand them it's no different than standing in front of an audience with a power point presentation and don't understand the design on your chart.  If I can't trust you to present or understand something correctly how can I trust that it will meet requirements and do what I want?

 

My measurements of the cam I purchased were different than what is advertised for a 56, it's more of a blended profile that will work across 53-56 engines.  The 56 specs on Russ site I believe are for a solid lifter export cam as the article is referencing nailhead design facts.  What I bought  was a general cam that idles smooth and runs fine.  However I was really after more of a lower LSA similar to the factory 56 with a little roughness (112 vs 114 on the cam).  Russ cam does have good lift - but if you use this cam, or a 401 type cam with turned down journals, and 1.6 rockers check for valve spring bind (measure!) against the specifications of the spring.  I think one of the tabs in the spreadsheet will automatically calculate that.  I also wanted a different duration to help with low end torque - I wanted grunt right off idle rather than revs.  Get a cam wheel and dial it in when installed.  I had a close call on valve springs. Check the thread for parts that worked for my build and avoided cracking rockers.  Mudbone went with a Schneider cam - can't wait to hear how that worked.

 

Melling makes a cam, SBC-3, that was well specified, I would recommend using that as a guideline example of good specmanship of a product for what it's worth.  I saw posts of folks and spoke with one who had good results with that cam.  My cam was already installed or I would have turned the journals and tried it.  I cannot personally vouch for it but I am still intrigued and some day if I'm bored I may just try it.

 

You will have equal fun with piston volume if you purchase pistons, but I followed mudbones lead there, measuring the volume of the dome and checking the wrist pin measurement and skirt measurement. 

 

Go git em tiger.

[NTX5467]

Cam specs can be a murky place to be!  LOTS of numbers and if you don't know how they relate to actual performance in the SIZE engine you have, results can be "different".

 

LOTS of things can affect how a cam works in an engine.  Reading the "comments" in the cam catalogs can be misleading, too!  What might be a mild cam in a 455 can be very wild in a 322, comparatively, for example.  I devised what I termed a "camshaft factor" which relates to engine size, valve sizes, and duration at .050" lift.  With this factor, there are lots of givens involved, but usually within a given engine family, many of them might be "constants" of sorts.  Run it with a stock cam and then with aftermarket cams for direct comparisons.  If you find a combination of cam and engine that works in one engine size, you can adjust to a larger or smaller displacement level, too.  All about "comparisons".

 

In general, many aftermarket cams are ground on LSA of 110 degrees, rather than the more OEM-level of 112 or 114 degrees.  This can make a difference in idle intake manifold vacuum AND necessitate playing with the mechanical advance curve, from my own experiences.  The lower number can also relate to low-rpm torque, as I understand it . . . less of it.  Maybe not by much and not a real issue with a three+ speed automatic transmission, but with a 2-speed, it can be important.  So, more is better, to me, in this area.

 

On the cam Russ specs as the "export" cam, it looks very much like many 350 Chevy cams.  The one I chose for my 305 and later the 350 which replaced the 305, specs at 210 degrees @ .050", .440 lift, and 110 degrees LSA.  It worked pretty well in the 305, idling at 10.5" Hg in gear at 550rpm.  It took a while to get the mechanical advance quickened from factory specs with the 110 LSA.  Compared to the original 305 cam, I lost about .2mpg average.  The original 305 cam had the same specs as the 350 cam, but with less intake lift (.370" vs .390" lift), compared to the old Chevy 350/300 cam.  It took a little finesse to get the idle in gear to be as smooth as I desired, but in the 350, with no other changes than engine size, it felt like it had another 30 lbs-ft of torque off idle.  The idle was nicer, too, in spite of the 110 LSA.

 

Generally, the longer duration cams have higher rpm power peaks.  CID is more or a determiner of lower rpm torque, as can be valve sizes and port flow.  The Buick Nailhead heads, by design, have port flow which is not as good as later engines had.  Therefore, to help pump up the power, longer durations were used to compensate for these things.  Combustion chamber designs might have been cutting edge for when they were designed, but the smaller valves were a hindrance, I suspect.  2.02/1.60 valve sizes are about as big as you can put into a 4" bore engine, which puts more emphasis on great port design (at low lift and higher lifts' flow and quality of flow).  The amount of "hindrance" was illustrated by the exceptional power and torque produced by the prototype 401 Turbo engine proposed for the 1962 Wildcat 401, just as the 1957 Ford 312 Y-block's power increased substantially with the factory McCulloch supercharger option.

 

Finding a cam with assymetrical lobes configuration can be a plus!  That means "more area under the lift curve" for better cylinder filling.  Plus about 10 degrees at full lift rather than just 1 degree.  The cam card specs will not reflect that, though, but can be discovered by putting a degree wheel on the crank and a dial lndicator on top of a lifter against a cam lobe.

 

When I configured my "cam factor formula", the popular Chevy 350 cam was a Comp Cams 268HE cam, with assymetrical lobes (a first at that time).  I had several friends who installed that cam in their 350s and it worked very well.  I knew I needed something a little milder in my 305, so the comparison related to engine sizes led me to the Comp Cams 260HE.  I then opted for the similar (regular lobe) Cam Dynamics 266.  Even so, it seemed to like highway rpms of greater than 2000rpm, which was 62mph with the 2.56 axle ratio and P225/70R-15 tires on it.  That was still at the time of the 55mph national speed limit, so when the speed limit went up, it liked it.

 

Since the later 1970s, the camshaft world has greatly expanded.  Some of the older cams are still around for popular engines as others have evaporated.  There are also some online camshaft programs where you can check the power curve of various cams with the other components on your engine.  This can reveal similar cams with one having better lower-rpm torque and very little difference in higher rpm power.  CompCams has that on their website for download.  No Nailhead cams, though.  I suspect there are other engines with similar bore/stroke/rod length numbers as a Buick 322, then factor thing down a little for the port issues, and it should be close.  

 

Have Fun!

NTX5467

[Beemon]

Thanks for the replies guys. I've got a lot of reading to do. 

 

In terms of vacuum advance, the part number was VC680 from NAPA. I did some looking and this is the correct vacuum can. The limiter on the can is a rubber bushing that goes over the hooked end, it's about 1/8" thick. I checked ignition timing with initial set to 0 and the can hooked to full manifold and it was between 12-14"Hg.

 

In terms of cam, I'm really hoping that I can get this all together by the 11th of august, which is just a little over 2 months. The machinist said he would have the short block honed, ringed and seated in about an hour, but it depends on how quick I get everything to him. I would also like to find some better pistons, but if time is against me I'll stick with the poor pistons and stock cam (if it is stock).

 

In terms of timing chains, what would be my odds if I went after one is those aluminum 401 covers? 

 

Likewise, is their any negatives to installing a 5 vane AC water pump vs the stock 3 vane? 

 

Wednesday is the date we dig in, it's been set in stone. 

[KAD36]

My other recommendation would be to have your machinist fit new cam bearings and make sure the cam fits properly before it leaves his shop. Make sure the oil holes are lined up.  Mentors drilled that into my skull.  See if you can offer new theories on the snap ring.  We could start a book.

 

Curious how the distributor works out - should be a drop in.  I have one sitting on the shelf also.  Held off putting it in; had introduced enough new variables at once.  

Edited May 28, 2017 by KAD36 (see edit history)

[Beemon]

Ken, the distributor is drop in, I've been driving it with the new distributor for the last two days. Here's some pics, with the rubber expansion plug installed and that God awful air cleaner. I'm working on a way to fit the original. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[Beemon]

Just found out the aluminum timing chain/gear cover at the 401 yard is only worth $10 to them. Might be worth it to pull both? Valley cover is worth $7.50, and the valve covers are worth $7.50 each. Too bad there aren't aluminum GS covers out there, they only  want $15 each for those. Haha. Still curious about using a non AC water pump vs an AC water pump. I feel more vanes would be better but put more drag on the engine? In the long run I do want AC of some kind (most likely aftermarket) since us Washingtonians can't take 80 degree weather too well, so might be a good investment?

[KAD36]

Great - thank you for the follow up.

 

For future reference, here is the compressed thickness of the FelPro Low Compression gasket.set

 

http://www.felpro-only.com/break_room_forum/showthread.php?tid=1348&highlight=322

[NTX5467]

There are several theories about water pumps and related flow amounts.  There is an optimum flow rate for best heat transfer with minimum turbulence within the coolant passages.  There is also the issue of drive ratio of the 3-vane system and the 5 vane system, possibly, which would entail measuring the diameter of the 5-vane water pump pulley and the crankshaft pulley on the same engine, then comparing it to what's on your 3-vane system.  It could well be that the 5-vane system turns the pump a little slower, but moves similar volumes of coolant in a more homogenous result.

 

At this point in time, it might be best to go with what you've already got in the short block.  You can borrow a magnetic base dial indicator and check the lobe lift of the cam, for general principles, while it's on the engine stand.  Would not take long to do  If you can find a degree wheel, you can bolt it to the nose of the crank and check the .050"  , too, PLUS verify the "0" or "TDC" timing mark.  Even more numbers, but a better knowledge of what's in there.  As "wild" as many 1950s V-8 cams might have been, when compared to the prior model years' camshafts, they can be very tame when compared to what became available in the following years.  The "finesse" of when opening/closing events happened was still being developed, even for similar durations.

 

You know how it did run, so getting things "righted" may or might not really make a significant difference, BUT the piece of mind THIS TIME should be greater as many things will be investigated, determined, and verified.  A "quality control exercise".

 

NTX5467