GregLaR

FleaBay Does it Again! Museum Quality GT350?

48 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, JACK M said:

So, the car in question doesn't have or didn't come with back up lights?

Jack, if you look at the picture in the very first post of this thread you'll see the back up light mounted in place of the right front turn signal.

And yes, 1966 should have back up lights but they should be mounted to the rear valance, not the front one. :lol:

Edited by GregLaR (see edit history)

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19 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

I'm assuming that you are either an appraiser or have a lot of stock in NADA or KBB.  I know some appraisers who I respect so I won't disparage the lot but you can probably guess what I think of them too.  

 

Sure a Hemi Cuda with an automatic will find a home,  but the same car with the 4 gear will find a home 5x quicker and at a premium much higher than 10%. If you think otherwise you have never bought or sold a musclecar. 

Well you're wrong on all counts, but I've long learned there's no point in arguing the point.

 

Anyone can choose for themselves.  Use the opinion of a guide used by millions, from a 100 year old organization that collects data from thousands of dealers sharing their actual sales information, or go with the opinion of an unknown internet poster claiming that they have a lot of experience and know a lot...some of whom clearly do not.

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Well, interesting, I've had personal experience with stick versus automatic on two very desirable cars.

 

First was a 1966 Mustang GT K convertible, hi-po engine with a factory automatic.  Now, I had many people tell me that none came from the factory this way, but they did, and all the numbers on the car were correct and showed that option.  It was a very nice car, and when I sold it (about 15 years ago), I sold it for top dollar AT THE TIME for a K Mustang.  They've gone up in value considerably since then, of course...

 

Second was a 1963 Corvette split window, again an automatic which I know people say is the kiss of death for a Corvette.  It was a driver quality car, had correct engine and accessories, was painted a metallic blue which was incorrect, and the previous owner had put an awful white interior in it.  The car needed a restoration, but drove great and was respectable as is.  I sold it at Hershey 4 years ago for mid five figures, which I think was at market for any split window in that condition at the time.

 

So, these weren't the serious cars that Ed is discussing, and just my experiences, but in both cases I don't feel the automatic hurt either car.  I'd bought them specifically BECAUSE they were automatics and my wife could drive them (she can't physically handle a clutch any more), and I know that on at least one of the cars above that was part of the reason the buyer wanted the car......

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I agree with trimacar.......on mid level or hobby level cars, the trans is not as critical to price. On the great stuff......it's everything.

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1 hour ago, edinmass said:

I agree with trimacar.......on mid level or hobby level cars, the trans is not as critical to price. On the great stuff......it's everything.

And I agree with you agreeing with me (which is always a pleasure!) ....and your comment too, high dollar cars have to have the good stuff to bring the right monetary compensation.....

 

I still get a kick out of the way a lot of late '60's Chrysler product muscle cars are restored....I can tell you from personal experience, as a car guy shopping for a new car in 1969, that the fit and finish on Chrysler products was absolutely terrible......and if everything fits and there are no rattles when running or driving on a restored such car, then it's over restored.....I know, still desirable cars, but "perfect" was not a word used at the factory for sure....and never crossed the lips of any Chrysler dealer when the cars were new....

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Dave,  in your situation with both the K code and the 63 Vette the automatic is actually pretty rare with both of them.  There are a small percentage of buyers that prefer or need the auto so in this case it worked to your advantage.  For the great majority of cars the percentages are reversed. 

Edited by alsancle (see edit history)

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So a special edition of a known muscle car with a four speed and AC should be worth big bucx ?

OTOH I have found price guides to be handy in driving the price of a car I'm thinking about down.

But in the end it all depends on what the last two bidders have enough credit to spend.

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On 4/23/2017 at 11:43 AM, GT52 said:

.. or go with the opinion of an unknown internet poster claiming that they have a lot of experience and know a lot...some of whom clearly do not.

GT52, you know not of what you speak. Neither Al nor Ed are unknown. Both are LONG time big players in the hobby, and are both respected by everyone I know in the hobby. In addition, they give their real names in their posts and do not hide behind a contrived "handle."

 

I've been in the hobby just as long as both Ed and Al and have rubbed elbows with some of the most well-known hobbyists in the world. I'm also an automotive journalist, editor, photographer, etc. In addition, I've been appraising automobiles since 1984 for a company that's been in business since 1976.

 

That said, I slightly disagree with both Ed and Al in that appraisal GUIDES are "100% worthless" (although they explained their comment further by saying they're worthless for the high end vehicles). Price GUIDES are just that... guides. As a user of them regularly, one gets a feel for which are accurate, and which are not. NONE of the guides are good 'across the board,' but each seem to have their own strength in a certain genre. And one should always remember that the guides are also just opinions of the editor/publisher.

 

One thing I've always found funny are the guides that give values right down to the ten spot, i.e. $35,350. Really? You give an opinion about a car's value and say it's worth exactly $350 more than $35,000??? Why not $35,500, or just $35,000. The odd figures make you wonder that all they've done is hit the % button across the board when they update the next edition.

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3 hours ago, West Peterson said:

GT52, you know not of what you speak...

Fair enough, everyone's entitled to their opinion on such things.  Maybe you can point out what I said that is verifiably wrong?

 

Maybe if you and Al and Ed all agree that a 4 speed muscle car reliably brings a 40% premium over an automatic high end muscle car one of you could cite some actual sales on two otherwise comparable muscle cars...instead of just assurances of how much experience you have, how much you know, and who you've rubbed elbows with.

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You were wrong in stating that Al and Ed were unknown internet posters. Their knowledge and experience qualify them to make knowlegeable statements and/or opinions.

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😃

 

Thanks for the kind words gentlemen! I think the issue is 99.9 percent of cars are not what we would call blue chip cars, while others often look at common or fairly common cars as deseriable and collectible. What's a decent car to have as a long term collectiable from the fifties or sixties? An alloy gullwing would come to mind, along with the pony cars that run from five to forty million. When put it that perspective almost any American iron falls short. And to be honest, I rather have the American iron over the foreign stuff. That's makes the worlds best Yenko look like a starter car. It's all in the perspective. I have owned a few good sixties cars. Back when you could get a decent and reasonably desirable car for three grand. I sure wish I kept the 69 pace car and the other assorted cars we ruined. I am quite sure most of the guys at Barret Jackson wouldn't talk to me if they knew what we did to the iron we had. I guess we did contribute in our own special way........we ruined so much stuff the common cars are now looked at as something special.

 

By the way GT52, Al is too polite to tell you what's in his garage. He has the best stuff pre and post war. I know of no other person in the hobby with his extensive comprehension of automobile history. I'm fortunate to call him my friend. Here we are kicking tires at Pebble Beach last year, I was hard to find a photo I could share without one of our own cars in the shot.

IMG_2930.PNG

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I would not hesitate to buy a used car from either of those two desperadoes - - but both have taken time to save me from myself which is probably even better!  

 

We are lucky to have a lot of knowledgeable collectors on this forum, it is one of the best sources of knowledge out there.

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Ed is the blonde.  Since I'm shy  I fortunately have my back to the camera.    I wonder what happened to that Derham 12?  I really liked that car.

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I think those two lovely ladies are higher maintenance than the Packard in the photo, and all the cars in both of our garages! To quote a famous distiller "all goods worth price charged".

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On muscle cars I can't say it on all,  but I have a few I might own some day.  I have found a few good examples but all had automatics and after selling a 427 400 HP numbers matching 68 Corvette,  realized any future performance purchase would have to be a stick.  I won't tell you the number of people that walked away from the Vette as soon as they found out it had a TH400.  In fact,  the guy I sold it to was going to convert it to a stick and keep all the parts to put it back and was thrilled he was getting a deal because it was an automatic.  

So I guess in both cases as being a buyer and a seller,  the automatic is a turn off and deal breaker.   

I wouldn't even consider an Automatic C1 when I was looking for one.

I'm casually looking now for a late model Saturn Sky redline and won't buy one with an auto. 

I remember a 1963 Corvette conv't I agonized over buying and never did because it was a glide car. 

Maybe the autos were just the tickets when you sold your cars but even my Vette friend who has built and is crazy knowledgeable on all eras of Vettes said the Auto is almost always the kiss of death. 

Probably not as crucial on most low HP Vettes but once you start pushing the performance end of things,  guys want to shift.   Probably just an ego testosterone thing,  though my wife will only drive a stick and that made finding her a new Tacoma kind of tough. 

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Perhaps I'm getting old, but I drove a 1967 Corvette convertible a few hundred miles last summer. It had an automatic, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. They are definitely under-rated.

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My 400 HP 427 with the Turbo 400 68 drove fine and could be bump shifted to maximize performance.  It seems though,  guys don't want to be called a wus by their friends for having an automatic or something along those lines.  I just got sick of trying to sell it when every person that inquired said oh it's an automatic.  I didn't want to have to go through that again.  One reason i usually buy convertibles as well. I can't think of a single person that has ever looked at a convertible that I have been selling, say to me,  if only it were a sedan I would be interested.  I have to think resale as at some point I will get bored with it and want to experience a different type of car.   I couldn't imagine my 60 Fuel Injected Corvette with an automatic.  Especially a PG.  

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What about late model Vett's C5, C6, C7,  automatics with paddle sifters ?  

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Well now, this thread has really taken a different direction. I have to say, having owned almost 50 Corvettes over the last 30 years, it's been my personal experience that there are just as many automatic trans buyers as there are standard. Whichever I've had at the time I chose to sell it, the subject never came up that the buyer would have preferred one over the other. Granted most of these Corvettes ranged from  about $15K to $50K. None of theme were "ultra rare".

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