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ex98thdrill

Interior Judging

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Due to what I'm going to be putting on the show field I won't be judging this year.

 

For those of you who are judging and for those of you were are having your vehicles judged for the first time I have a news flash for you.

 

LeBaron Bonney does NOT sell interior kits with flathead screws anymore!!!

 

We're in the process of bringing a vehicle to West Virginia for a First Junior.  The interior that was in the vehicle we're doing was a new interior but it had the wrong screws, so I called LeBaron Bonney to order the correct screws and found out that they don't sell them. 

 

Well boys and girls, philips head screws were not used in prewar vehicles (some of the woodies had wood screws). 

 

If you are a novice car owner, please take note and change out the philips head screws with flathead screws.  That will save you a lot of time and aggravation of losing your awards over incorrect screws.

 

If you are a judge and you see that you are about to judge a freshly restored vehicle and you have a novice car owner, go easy on them.  I know rules are rules, but when the companies aren't selling the vehicle owners what they need and the vehicle owners don't know the difference, your actions could easily cost AACA a member. 

 

I explained the issue with the person from Labaron Bonney, she was very pleasant and said she'd pass that information onto her supervisor.

 

I don't need any replies on where to buy the correct screws because I know where to find them, but I'm trying to inform the judges and car owners that just because a restoration supply company sells you a product, that doesn't mean that what you pay for is correct. 

 

The best way to sum it up in one sentence....

 

"Before you show your vehicle, do your research."

Edited by ex98thdrill (see edit history)
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On the flip side, is it fair to the other car owners who have researched what is correct and ensured their cars are as they left the factory for an interior judge to go easy on a guy because L-B doesn't provide the correct part? When I got ready to show my 29 Model A for the first time, I spent the entire winter before going through literature, MARC books, etc. to ensure every part on the car was correct.  I was rewarded for that by receiving my Junior and Senior Awards.  I would have been a little upset if the car next to me had parts that were incorrect and the judge knew it but let it go. 

 

Bob

 

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An excellent point is made here. Anyone who is having a car judged should certainly respect the time and money invested enough to read the judging guidelines. This will clue you in to many things. 1935 as the first year for Phillips screws, and likely flat heads are vehicle correct on many models for many more years, and it's listed in the guidelines! Another valuable point is given in the judging school is that we refer to factory documentation NOT vendors offerings or catalogs.  I've not had the opportunity to have my own car on the field, but when I get to that point, I hope others will peer review my vehicle to help me make it better. The idea is to be competing against the standard, not the guy next to you. So with that in mind, finding a tactful and helpful way to critique each others cars would help everyone! Judges can't and shouldn't be offering their advise as this would reveal points lost.

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I know it's a matter of semantics, but even Phillips screws can be "flat head".  What's being discussed is slotted screws, ones that use a flat blade screwdriver, versus the Phillips.

 

Also, most screws used in interiors weren't flat head, but either called oval or round head.

 

Yes, it's getting harder to find slotted screws, they're out there but you have to look a little.  Most hardware stores now have very limited supplies of them as everything has gone to Phillips head.

 

The date 1935 was a patent date, the first car company to use Phillips head screws in their cars was Cadillac in 1936.  So, from a judging standpoint, one would have to determine what year their particular make of car changed to those screws.

 

Ah, the minutiae of antique cars!

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1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

Or as my wife refers to them, "plus or minus screws"

Nice!  Never thought of it that way.....plus screws are the norm these days, I can foresee a day when finding minus screws will be very difficult......

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And she is not intentionally trying to be funny. The other night she wanted something done at home. I asked her to grab an adjustable wrench from my tool box. She came back with a ratchet and socket. I love her to death but she will never be a mechanic.

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On 4/19/2017 at 3:27 PM, ex98thdrill said:

I explained the issue with the person from Labaron Bonney, she was very pleasant and said she'd pass that information onto her supervisor.

 

Whenever you have a suggestion or complaint,

don't start at the bottom with a clerk, hoping the 

message will somehow work its way up.  Instead,

write a polite and compelling letter to the President.

That way, it will get far more notice.

 

In a large company, the President or C. E. O. may

never see it himself, but any directives within the company

will come down from his office, carrying far more weight.

 

And if your reasons are convincing, the changes they

make to their hardware will help every restorer that

comes after you.

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You'd be surprised at the number of owners who never attempt to get or view a judging rule book. Many buy a car and then decide to show it and just register and bring it for judging.   I've seen a number of cars that way over the years. 

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On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 2:54 PM, Bob Hill said:

On the flip side, is it fair to the other car owners who have researched what is correct and ensured their cars are as they left the factory for an interior judge to go easy on a guy because L-B doesn't provide the correct part? When I got ready to show my 29 Model A for the first time, I spent the entire winter before going through literature, MARC books, etc. to ensure every part on the car was correct.  I was rewarded for that by receiving my Junior and Senior Awards.  I would have been a little upset if the car next to me had parts that were incorrect and the judge knew it but let it go. 

 

Bob

 

No it's not, but do you think it's right for a vendor to misrepresent their product?? 

 

If someone is giong to install a factory correct interior kit, they should be getting the right fasteners for their money.  If you're buying a custom interior kit, correct fasteners would be irrelevant.

 

I'd rather pay $30 more for an interior kit knowing I'm getting everything right.  You'd be better off getting an upholstery kit with no fasteners at all than to pay $1,000+ for the kit, paying the entry fee, paying the hotel rates and travel expenses to go to a meet and lose an award over $30 worth of screws. The vendors should at least be making it known when they sell a product.

 

I'm not beating up on any one vendor, but as a judge, fellow car owner, etc. the best way to do business is to share the knowledge.  I found something wrong, I put it on the forum, and I'm sharing my knowledge. 

 

AACA Judging doesn't divulge scores,  so imagine being a new member, putting a pile of money into a restoration, losing out on a win and not knowing why.  Granted the VP of Class Judging can give the owners some idea, they really can't go into full details.

 

Twelve years ago I ordered an interior kit from LeBaron Bonney, they sent me the wrong screws, I called them up and they sent me the correct ones free of charge.  This time I ran into the same situation, called them up wanting to buy the correct screws for their interior kit and was told they don't even have them let alone sell them.

 

I do my research, based on what you've written, you do your research, but in the case of the novice some of these guys come out and don't have a chance.  When our membership ages every single year, throwing a novice car owner to the wolves isn't your best method in retaining members to replace the older members you're losing.

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AACA Judging doesn't divulge scores,  so imagine being a new member, putting a pile of money into a restoration, losing out on a win and not knowing why.  Granted the VP of Class Judging can give the owners some idea, they really can't go into full details.

 

On that note, why bother entering a judged situation if you can't learn from it?  Is scoring basis not revealed because it gives car owners an edge to an argument?

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The owner can request a sheet that shows the areas where deductions were taken, but no numerical scores are revealed. 

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3 hours ago, MCHinson said:

The owner can request a sheet that shows the areas where deductions were taken, but no numerical scores are revealed. 

Matt, thanks for that info. 

A judge can deduct whatever ..... or are specific numerical values assigned to each deduction ?

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There is judgment involved on the part of the judge. There are some mandatory deductions that are a specific number of points. Other categories have a maximum. The judge can choose to take however many points they feel appropriate up to the maximum for that particular item. In practical application, that generally means you will not know if a judge took one point for a particular part's condition, or if he or she took two points for that part. You will only know which area you need to address. You won't have a number, so there is no reason to attempt to argue about the number. 

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