Top Boots

[Guest]

I previously owned a sedan that won a Senior, but my current car is a convertible, ( and my first antique open car) so I am trying to educate myself on some of the aspects of judging that are specific to open cars. I notice that the top boot is a line item on the judging sheet. The top boot on my car is totally removed from the car when the top is up ( as for judging). I had a new top boot made during the restoration of the car. I have only had this car judged at one National Meet so far, and I did not think to even bring the boot with me to that meet. I was not asked about the boot by the Team Captain. In CCCA judging, this type of boot must be available for inspection by the judges, or a deduction is taken. This is similar to the procedure spelled out in the AACA judging guidelines for roadster/phaeton side curtains. So.... should I be bringing the separate  top boot with me if the car is  being judged at a national meet? It is large, difficult to fold up, and an overall pain in the neck to haul around. I attached a picture of the boot installed on the car. Thanks for your expertise.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[Brass is Best]

Hi Rick, That sure is a pretty Cadillac. Keep up the good work, Andy

 

P.S. Try folding the ends flat and rolling it up. Might sit well inside the golf club door. Some guys have a boot bag made to slide them in when not in use.

[61polara]

You should bring the boot and have it with the car should the judges ask to see it.  You're going for your Senior Award.  I would not risk any points you can avoid.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Brass is Best said:

Hi Rick, That sure is a pretty Cadillac. Keep up the good work, Andy

 

P.S. Try folding the ends flat and rolling it up. Might sit well inside the golf club door. Some guys have a boot bag made to slide them in when not in use.

Hi Andy. That's high praise coming from you, and I appreciate it. I suppose that's the way to go although the area inside the golf club door already gets pretty full with the lawn chairs, cooler and such. The boot is also heavy weight material and does not fold/ roll into a very small package. Perhaps an excuse to arrive/depart with the top down.   Hope to see you at an upcoming meet.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 61polara said:

You should bring the boot and have it with the car should the judges ask to see it.  You're going for your Senior Award.  I would not risk any points you can avoid.

 

Hi Dave. Yep, that's the plan. I was more interested in what judges are taught, and if there is a consistent procedure regarding these types of boots. Many open cars were not even supplied with a factory boot. I'm somewhat surprised these types of boots are not included in the statement regarding side curtains in section 2 page 20, C 3 of the guidelines. Thanks.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)

[Brass is Best]

6 hours ago, 31 Caddy said:

Hi Andy. That's high praise coming from you, and I appreciate it. I suppose that's the way to go although the area inside the golf club door already gets pretty full with the lawn chairs, cooler and such. The boot is also heavy weight material and does not fold/ roll into a very small package. Perhaps an excuse to arrive/depart with the top down.   Hope to see you at an upcoming meet.

 

I like the top down idea. Convertibles always look better that way. Some judges can be cranky about it though. I sometimes drive onto the show field with the top down. Then put it up for judging and back down to leave. It also gives spectators a chance to see the car both ways. Not to mention the production of raising and lowering the top.

[Eric Wahlberg]

The Official Judging Guidelines state in Section XV Specific Guidelines, C. Interior, 3. "Touring/Roadster/Convertible tops must be in the up position for material to be judged or the full deduction for the top will be made.  Rear windows must be of the correct type or the full deduction will be take.  Side curtains must be available and/or displayed for viewing by the judges, but do not have to be in place.  The curtains must be displayed with all applicable irons, brackets and fasteners."  However, the Judging Form does have an item listing for Cover (Boot).  This item carries a maximum 3 point deduction.  In the 10+ years I have been showing my '58 Porsche I have never been asked to show the Cover (Boot), including last years AGNM where it was awarded a First Place.  Also, in the 5 years I have been a judge, I have never myself, seen another judge or Team Captain request to see the Cover (Boot) for any open car being judged.  

 

All that being said, I would still take it to any AACA Meet where the car will be judged, just in case someone on the judging team requests to see it.  I always bring mine, because at the end of the day, weather permitting, I put the top down for the drive off the show field.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Eric Wahlberg said:

The Official Judging Guidelines state in Section XV Specific Guidelines, C. Interior, 3. "Touring/Roadster/Convertible tops must be in the up position for material to be judged or the full deduction for the top will be made.  Rear windows must be of the correct type or the full deduction will be take.  Side curtains must be available and/or displayed for viewing by the judges, but do not have to be in place.  The curtains must be displayed with all applicable irons, brackets and fasteners."  However, the Judging Form does have an item listing for Cover (Boot).  This item carries a maximum 3 point deduction.  In the 10+ years I have been showing my '58 Porsche I have never been asked to show the Cover (Boot), including last years AGNM where it was awarded a First Place.  Also, in the 5 years I have been a judge, I have never myself, seen another judge or Team Captain request to see the Cover (Boot) for any open car being judged.  

 

All that being said, I would still take it to any AACA Meet where the car will be judged, just in case someone on the judging team requests to see it.  I always bring mine, because at the end of the day, weather permitting, I put the top down for the drive off the show field.

 

Eric, yep you're spot on with where I was coming from. That's the Judging Guidelines and Judging sheet references that I was referring to. Thanks for posting them. I wonder what the judge does when he gets to the line item on the judging sheet and no boot is present. Perhaps the assumption is simply made that the particular car being judged did not have a factory supplied boot. As mentioned before, I think I will just do what you mentioned in your last paragraph and enjoy the show. ( Although putting the top up and down is a hassle in itself and risks wrinkling the top)

 I hope folks understand that I am enjoying the whole experience and am not "wrapped around the axle " about this.  On the other hand, I admit to being anal about details, and see this as a discrepancy/omission in the Guidelines that should be corrected. Another example is my previous topic regarding convertible top material. What IS the procedure for submitting a proposed clarification/change to the Judging Guidelines? Thanks again for posting and for being a judge.

[MCHinson]

Judging is done from the car to the form, not from the form to the car. You don't go down the form looking for a list of things to look at on the car. You look at the car and if you see something that does not look right, you then record it on the appropriate line of the form. With the top up, on every car that I am aware of, you don't have the top boot on the car. The only instance that I could think of that a judge would ask for the top boot, or take any points for a top boot would be if there is or was a car that had a top boot that unfastened to allow the top to go up but remained visible somewhere on the car. I have never seen a car such as that and don't think that any exist. 

 

I took a 1929 Model A Ford Phaeton all the way to Annual Grand National Repeat Senior and never had a top boot on the field. The top boot was in a box in my garage from the day I bought the car until the day I sold it. While I don't want to disagree with any of my fellow experienced judges who say take the top boot with you, I can only say that I can't imagine any judge ever asking to see it, unless he read this discussion and that prompted him to ask to see it. I also don't think it would be correct for a judge to ask to see it, as it is not visible on the car in the condition that the car is to be presented on the judging field.

 

If you want to ask the question, you should contact Roger Irland. Roger is the VP of Judging. His email address can be found on the AACA website at: http://www.aaca.org/About-AACA/officers-a-directors-roster.html

[Restorer32]

The parade boot on a '53 Cadillac Eldo is fully visible when the top is up. There are others, including XK Jag Roadsters. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MCHinson said:

Judging is done from the car to the form, not from the form to the car. You don't go down the form looking for a list of things to look at on the car. You look at the car and if you see something that does not look right, you then record it on the appropriate line of the form. With the top up, on every car that I am aware of, you don't have the top boot on the car. The only instance that I could think of that a judge would ask for the top boot, or take any points for a top boot would be if there is or was a car that had a top boot that unfastened to allow the top to go up but remained visible somewhere on the car. I have never seen a car such as that and don't think that any exist. 

 

I took a 1929 Model A Ford Phaeton all the way to Annual Grand National Repeat Senior and never had a top boot on the field. The top boot was in a box in my garage from the day I bought the car until the day I sold it. While I don't want to disagree with any of my fellow experienced judges who say take the top boot with you, I can only say that I can't imagine any judge ever asking to see it, unless he read this discussion and that prompted him to ask to see it. I also don't think it would be correct for a judge to ask to see it, as it is not visible on the car in the condition that the car is to be presented on the judging field.

 

If you want to ask the question, you should contact Roger Irland. Roger is the VP of Judging. His email address can be found on the AACA website at: http://www.aaca.org/About-AACA/officers-a-directors-roster.html

WOW! Matt you were able to get right to the heart of this in the most succinct manner imaginable. Your first three sentences stopped me in my tracks. Not being a judge, I thought that the judging sheet IS a "to do" list. Just learning that I was wrong there, has made this topic worthwhile to me. Another point worth discussion that you brought out is whether any cars even exist that have some type of boot that remains on the car with the top up. This has been in my mind since the get go. Restorer 32 mentions that there are some. The CCCA approaches it from the angle of whether or not the particular car was supplied with a boot from the factory. I'd just as soon not drag the boot around. Yours and Eric's experiences with this just confirms my position that a statement needs to be added to the judging guidelines, OR top boot should be removed from the judging sheets. Or....if simply ignored, I will EVENTUALLY go away....

[MCHinson]

I am much more familar with cars of the 20s and 30s. Top Boot obviously needs to be on the judging sheet for those cars that the boot is visible on when the top is up. For your car, and most that I am familar with, there should not be any reason for you to bother carrying it with you since the top has to be up for judging. Now I guess I need to do some research on some cars that I have never seen. We all can learn from discussions on the forum.

[Bhigdog]

Both my Buick converts are GN winners and one a Nat award winner. No one's ever even mentioned the boot.............Bob

[Phillip Cole]

It will be interesting to get a ruling on your question. I think Matt "hit the nail on the head" with his "not visible" statement. 

Look forward to seeing your car at Charlotte!

[Brass is Best]

8 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

The parade boot on a '53 Cadillac Eldo is fully visible when the top is up. There are others, including XK Jag Roadsters. 

 

Cord 810 and 812 as well.

[Brass is Best]

I have seen multiple show winning cars that the tops have never been down on. Some I wonder if the top would go down. Judging of convertibles should almost include seeing the top both ways.