Type of oil to use for 1930 Marquette engine

[peterjohn1948]

Hi all, what would be a type oil to use for my 1930 Marquette engine. L-head 6 cylinder 67.5 horsepower.  It calls for 

a 30 weight. Not sure about the modern oils, thanks you for any help God Bless  Peter Floral City, Florida

[Spinneyhill]

This topic comes up every month or so. There are many such in this forum. Try a search.

 

If the engine is new (rebuilt), then put in 5W or 10W-30 synthetic for best performance. The first number, before the W, is the cold start performance. A small number means easy to pump around when the oil is cold, so earliest lubrication on startup. The second number is the operating temp. performance. If no filter, change it as recommended in the book. IN GENERAL, synthetic oil will reduce wear compared to almost any mineral oil. You can ask the internet for wear tests on oils and see the comparisons.

 

If the engine has unknown oil and history, remove the oil pan and clean it out. It may have a good lining of sludge, which would be the result of poorer oils of days gone by and possible long periods sitting. Make sure the oil pickup (assuming a pumped system) is clean. Then use the same oil (5W-30) or perhaps a 5W or 10W-40 if it is a bit worn. If the sump was really dirty, count on changing the oil in say 500 miles (i.e. when it gets dirty). This is because muck similar to that in the sump will also be deposited everywhere in the engine and the good oil will gradually remove it (without harming the engine). You may need another change after the next 500 miles as well before reverting to the intervals in your book.

 

I have a 1930 Dodge Brothers 8 with a bypass filter. I am running 5W-40 and change it every 1000 miles. The filter cartridges are unavailable so I change the oil more frequently until I get onto hiding a modern cartridge inside an old one. DB's recommended change interval is 1500 miles summer and 500 miles winter.

[Brass is Best]

I would use Shell SAE 30 Non-Detergent Oil with an SB rating. It contains zinc.

[Spinneyhill]

Non-detergent oil is a good way to ensure your engine wears out fast. The thinking behind it is misinformed at least and Luddite at worst.

 

It was recognised early on that there were three problems with oils in use at the time, with five significant symptoms (source: Service Station and Motor Mechanics Manual, George George A.M.I.A.E., M.S.A.E., M.I.A.M., F.I.C., 1940, p. 87). The problems were exercising the minds of motor lubricant makers, I expect under pressure from auto makers:
1. Corrosion by the organic acid compounds produced by the combustion of the fuel, upon the upper part of the cylinder walls and upon the piston rings.
2. Sludge formation in the oil itself, i.e. the oil turns to sludge.
3. Rate of viscosity reduction with temperature.
4. Extreme pressure lubricants needed for gearboxes and differentials.
5. Corrosion of the new alloys being used for bearing metal.

 

We call oil additive packages "detergents" so I will continue with that loose terminology. These detergents include anti-oxidants to retard corrosion. They also prevent the oil turning to sludge. And the additive packages provide for a flattening of the viscosity-temperature curve, hence multigrade oils. The base oil is probably still S.A.E. 30, but the additives make it behave like the numbers in the multigrade designation: easier to pump at startup (e.g. 5W or 10W), leading to far less wear, and holding their viscosity at operating temperature.

 

Remember that back in the day, engines were full of SLUDGE (a consequence of the oil, not a design feature). It held in suspension and circulated the larger particles. With modern detergent oils, there is NO SLUDGE so the larger particles (the ones that do the damage) settle out in the sump. If you have damaging particles, your engine is already in serious trouble anyway. The particles that are entrained are very very small - clay sized. They are basically combustion products, which is why detergent oil goes black and the inside of the engine doesn't get this stuff deposited all over it.

 

With non-detergent sludgy oil, there are larger bits in circulation that may be bad for the engine.  All particles, including those very small ones resulting from combustion, settle out when the oil slows. Think of sediment transport: when the water slows in the river, the small particles settle and sand bars result. When an engine is shut down, the non-detergent oil drops all particulate matter where-ever it stops, which is everywhere in the engine - such as in the oil galleries in the block and crankshaft, in the dipper troughs in splash engines, in the tappet chamber, in the oil pump, on the oil pump pickup screen, in the piston ring lands and so on. Once settled, it doesn't readily get picked up again by non-detergent oil. The oil ways are narrowed, all of them.

 

When you next buy your bottle of non-detergent oil, look into the oil stocks used to make it. There is a pretty good chance it is low grade oil (see Widman's paper about this - http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html). If you want cheap low grade non-detergent oil, they will make it for you.

 

I don't for one moment think they would have continued to use old fashioned non-detergent oil once detergent oil became available. Non-detergent oil would not have been readily available. Reverting to it is a retrograde step.

 

Note also that oil changes were very frequent. My 1930 Dodge is recommended at 1500 miles in summer and 500 miles in winter. That was how they dealt with the sludge, corrosion and oil breakdown problems: new oil, frequently. The large sumps were also to handle a lot of oil: more oil should last longer before it is all sludge. And I don't for a moment believe the mechanics would remove the sump every oil change (or second or third or fourth even) - the customer wouldn't want to wait or pay for it and it is not a fun job.

 

I would never go near "old technology" oil. Your engine will last a lot longer on modern oil. Without a filter I would change frequently but still use a multigrade (i.e. detergent) oil. My 1930 Dodge has a bypass canister filter, but they are impossible to buy so I change the oil at 1000 mile intervals.

 

If you are running non-detergent oil you will be doing your engine and thus your pocket a big service when you See The Light and change to modern oil. Just clean out the sump and plan on a couple of changes in short (500 to 1000 mile) succession. The oil will probably get dirt fairly quickly as it picks up these super-fine particles where-ever there is a little turbulence or flow is fast enough.

[Guest fastbusa]

I have a 1938 dodge brothers d8. this is my first "pre war" car. I have a bunch of the manuals for the vehicle. I was using the information in the manual for my oil. I don't have a filter so I have been using the heavy oil because I thought the new oil would ruin the parts inside the motor.it does eat oil, its not driving yet . its almost done so after reading your information I should go to modern oil and add a fuel additive. I appreciate the info. might of just saved my engine.

[ply33]

38 minutes ago, fastbusa said:

I have a 1938 dodge brothers d8. this is my first "pre war" car. I have a bunch of the manuals for the vehicle. I was using the information in the manual for my oil. I don't have a filter so I have been using the heavy oil because I thought the new oil would ruin the parts inside the motor.it does eat oil, its not driving yet . its almost done so after reading your information I should go to modern oil and add a fuel additive. I appreciate the info. might of just saved my engine.

 

Where did you get "and add a fuel additive" out of the above discussion?

 

FWIW, your 1938 Dodge came from the factory with hardened exhaust valve seats and special alloy exhaust valves so no lead is needed.

 

The issues with modern fuel that I am aware of is two fold:

 

First, some modern additives are not kind to the flexible materials in older fuel systems. Adding more additives to the fuel won't fix that. Since this has been true for a couple of decades it is likely your fuel system has been rebuilt with rubber components compatible with modern fuel. If not, then do replace your flex hose and the fuel pump diaphragm, etc. with ones compatible with modern gas.

 

Second, virtually all cars on the road nowadays have fuel injection and are insensitive to how volatile the fuel is (pump in the tank delivering relatively high pressure to the injectors). So the refiners don't worry much about volatility and make decisions on blending, additives, etc. on other criteria. Unfortunately a carbureted engine with a low (less than 5 psi) pressure fuel system, especially with the pump located near the exhaust manifold, can have heat related fuel delivery issues. I've heard of people adding kerosene or diesel to the gasoline to mitigate this, but in general a "fuel additive" will not address the issue.

 

So what  type of fuel additive are you considering and why do you think your car needs it?

 

[A. Ballard 35R]

At the risk of showing my age and ignorance regarding non-detergent oil, my 1958 TR3A ran exclusively on Quaker State 40W non-detergent oil for 96,000 miles. Oil was changed along with the filter about every 3,000 miles and the engine only received tune-ups plus several valve jobs. The car was a daily driver and was run frequently in local hill climbs and gymkhanas where it was not unusual to turn up over 6,000 RPM. When traded in the compression was around 140 in all cylinders and it did not burn any oil nor were any additives ever used.

 

Yes, it makes sense to run detergent where there is a clean or rebuilt engine but please many older cars such as Classics survived very well on high quality non-detergent oil. The Shell non-detergent oil mentioned above doesn't seem out of line depending on the condition of the engine. Sorry that Kiwis have had such unfortunate results with "old technology" oil.

[Stude Light]

I've done much research on this whole subject and gleaned most of my information from SAE papers, aircraft engine rebuilders, a retired GM engineer who was a lead engineer in the R&D group for lubes (who wrote several of the SAE papers) and from my own experience with running old engines . Based on that, I would recommend using just a straight weight dispersant (aka "detergent") oil.  If you want the best stuff use synthetic. My engine has no oiler filter so I use mineral oil as I like to change it often and don't feel like wasting a bunch of money on synthetic oil that gets changed too often.  Unfortunately, frequent oil changes are the only way to really keep it clean without a filter.

 

Multi-grade oils start with the lowest viscosity base stock then include the additive package which includes long polymeric chains to "thicken" the oil to maintain higher temperature viscosity stability.  So 5W30 uses a 5W base stock.  Multi-viscosity oils tend to shear down the friction modifier package over time and return to something close to the base stock viscosity.  I don't run my vintage car in cold weather so I stick with straight weight oils as my engine seems to like them more than the multi-viscosity oils - maintains oil pressure better when it gets hot.  If I did cold starts in the winter, I would use multi-viscosity. 

 

Truthfully, any of today's oils are so superior to the oils of the 20's, 30's, 40's that you can use any of them and get excellent wear characteristics.  I would not use "non-detergent" oil.  All the dispersant or "detergent" in the oil does is keep most of the dirt and carbon suspended in the oil so it doesn't settle out and makes a filter and oil changes more effective at removing contaminants. It doesn't clean out settled deposits in your engine.  That said, I always recommend removing and cleaning out an oil pan on an engine with unknown history or one that has been running "non-detergent" oil.  It is just good practice and will reduce whatever oil you have in the engine from becoming any dirtier than necessary.

Scott

[Grimy]

I completely agree with Stude Light.  I've spent half an hour looking for a photo that I know I downloaded from another Pierce owner. It shows what looks like a turd being pushed out of a 1919 Pierce rod journal, which was probably 90% occluded by debris.  The problem with many early cars is that the oil never gets really hot enough--another Pierce owner measured oil temps in his 1917 Series 66 road locomotive (6 cyl, 825 cid) and the oil temp didn't break 140*F after a full day at 65 mph in hot weather.

 

The Triumph previously mentioned was undoubtedly run at considerably higher RPM and driven a bit harder than we do with most pre-war cars with very good effect.

 

The dispersant (my preferred term to 'detergent') oil does a better job of keeping debris is suspension so that it can exit with the oil at your *annual* oil changes, irrespective of mileage, while the oil is as hot as you can get it.

 

As I've mentioned before, in all my vintage cars I use crossover 15W-40 diesel oil which is also certified for gasoline engines.  I was using Shell Rotella T until this week's trip to WallyWorld, where the 'new' T4 was not also certified for gas engines, so I bought Delo, the new CK/SN version of which is still certified for gasoline engines.  The diesel crossovers have more zinc and phosphorus than allowed for gasoline-only engine oils. 

 

Yet another lesson learned is that if you open rod bearings for plastigaging, take a little more time and clean out the rod journal and crankshaft gallery oil passages.

 

Just got photos of the debris in the crank, trying to post

Edited April 1, 2017 by Grimy
correct 2 typos; adding photos (see edit history)

[Curti]

This is an excellent article printed in Skinned Knuckles recently. 

[Stude Light]

Thank goodness someone else finally wrote all this down in an article. The author did an excellent job researching and explaining the facts. This all agrees with my research with only one error.  Myth #5.  Actually the base oil is the lower of the two viscosity numbers (i.e. 10w-40 starts out as SAE10 and the additive package contains the long polymeric chains that provide the increased high temperature viscosity index of 40 at 100 deg C).

Thank you Curti for posting.

Scott

Edited April 5, 2017 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[Grimy]

That article has been expanded and clarified in the April 2017 SK which arrived today.  I thought the initial article pushed "Classic Car Motor Oil" (CCMO) a bit too heavily. This issue recounts an SK inquiry to CCMO, and emphasizes that the lack of an API "donut" on CCMO is not significant, AND that diesel crossover oils (Shell Rotella, Chevron RPM Delo, and Mobil Delvac) work about as well, less expensively--IF they are also certified for gasoline engines as well as diesel (see my post  #9 above).  SK further stresses that CCMO should NOT be used in any vehicle with a catalytic converter.