supercargirl Posted March 22, 2017 Share Posted March 22, 2017 (edited) In the spirit of getting these cars sold I am reducing the prices. Part of a collection being sold. VIN 532245 L-head 4 cylinder Engine, 3 speed manual floor mounted transmission,L-head 4 cylinder Engine, 3 speed manual floor mounted transmission, Black leather interior with tufted seats, Black-wall 33x4 tires,Wood spoke wheels with correct hub caps, Optional rear mounted spare, Wood rim steering wheel, Auxiliary horn, Original Dodge Brothers Gauges, Tilt-out windshield, Ebony Black and Maroon paint, Black leather top, Odometer reads 5,527 miles, Price: $13,000.00 100_1472.MOV Edited May 4, 2017 by supercargirl edited copy (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jan arnett (2) Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Who painted the fenders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Jan's point is that Dodge's of this era were never two toned, and even at that, this is an odd two tone, as the splash aprons would usually be painted the contrasting color also. Looks like a decent car, but I believe you'll find the market isn't very strong for early Dodge Brothers cars. Of much more interest is the V-12 Kouri speedster in the background, Pierce Arrow V-12 powered, that lived in the Harrah's collection for years. A person with the moniker SteelJester was on the AACA forums for a little while, had this car in his/her possession and was asking questions, but hasn't been on forum since 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 Don't know who painted the fenders. It's a good car. Reasonable offers accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Wilkie Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 I sold my 1922 Dodge Touring car about 3 years ago. It was a very solid clean original. Sold at $ 5,500 ... Had new tires, upholstery restored., older rebuilt engine, ect... These are very durable cars but very low geared. I would say only one notch above a Ford T.. But there are collectors for everything.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BillP Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 (edited) Here's a image from that post from 2014, looks like the same building. Well, i guess the copy/paste machine is broken. You'll have to snoop on your own. Edited March 23, 2017 by BillP (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 If you 32 minutes ago, BillP said: Here's a image from that post from 2014, looks like the same building. Well, i guess the copy/paste machine is broken. You'll have to snoop on your own. If you have any questions you can just ask me. I am representing the seller. Thanks so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Hope you find it a good home. Is there a list of other cars for sale from this collection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, trimacar said: Hope you find it a good home. Is there a list of other cars for sale from this collection? Yes but I wasn't sure if it was okay to post it. Also some of them don't really belong on this site: A 1962 Triumph, a 69 Siata. There is a very cool 1959 Autobianchi Bianchina Transformable. Edited March 24, 2017 by supercargirl (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 reduced the asking price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Those other cars DO belong on this site. Some of us are interested in foreign cars, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 Ok sir. Coming right up... But let's start some dialogue on the beauties I have already posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted April 12, 2017 Author Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) On 3/23/2017 at 6:27 AM, trimacar said: Of much more interest is the V-12 Kouri speedster in the background, Pierce Arrow V-12 powered, that lived in the Harrah's collection for years. A person with the moniker SteelJester was on the AACA forums for a little while, had this car in his/her possession and was asking questions, but hasn't been on forum since 2014. Good Call on the Pierce Arrow - According to the owner the car is a 1933 Pierce Arrow, Silver Arrow Special. The only convertible of the seven specials made. It was originally built to be Daddy Warbucks golf cart in an early Shirley Temple movie. I also found this on another forum: Marc Ralston's excellent Pierce-Arrow history (1980) confirms that one of the five original Silver Arrow show cars was "re-bodied as a roadster and became part of Harrah's Automobile Collection". There was no Model 1234 Pierce-Arrow in 1933 (one of those signage errors I alluded to), the five Silver Arrow show cars were all built on the standard 139" chassis, Model No. 1236 (later called 1239 to accurately reflect the wheelbase) . . . But if the Kouri Speedster has a 139-inch chassis, I'm a striped bandicoot. There's a monster wheelbase under this beast, and the largest "standard" Pierce-Arrow units were either 142 or 147 inches (models 1242 & 1247 respectively). In any case, at the very least an interesting car which I do remember from my 1976 visit to Harrah's collection. It was even more impressive in person. Edited April 12, 2017 by supercargirl (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 The engine in the Kouri speedster begins 360nnn. That is in the factory "experimental" series of about 11 or 13 (don't remember) engines, FIVE of which were used in the 139" wheelbase Silver Arrow sedans, and at least ONE of which was used in Ab Jenkins' Bonneville speed runs in a modified 1933 convertible coupe. Therefore, the 360nnn serial number indicates only that the engine is from the experimental series, NOT that it was originally fitted to a Silver Arrow. I, too, saw it in the Harrah Collection many years ago. I don't think anyone has been able to authenticate this car yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted April 12, 2017 Author Share Posted April 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Grimy said: The engine in the Kouri speedster begins 360nnn. That is in the factory "experimental" series of about 11 or 13 (don't remember) engines, FIVE of which were used in the 139" wheelbase Silver Arrow sedans, and at least ONE of which was used in Ab Jenkins' Bonneville speed runs in a modified 1933 convertible coupe. Therefore, the 360nnn serial number indicates only that the engine is from the experimental series, NOT that it was originally fitted to a Silver Arrow. I, too, saw it in the Harrah Collection many years ago. I don't think anyone has been able to authenticate this car yet. Authenticate it as what? Just trying to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 1 minute ago, supercargirl said: Authenticate it as what? Just trying to understand. Authenticate it as derived from one of the two 'missing' 1933 Silver Arrows, or even having the engine from one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted April 12, 2017 Author Share Posted April 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Grimy said: Authenticate it as derived from one of the two 'missing' 1933 Silver Arrows, or even having the engine from one of them. So how would one go about doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted April 12, 2017 Author Share Posted April 12, 2017 21 minutes ago, Grimy said: Authenticate it as derived from one of the two 'missing' 1933 Silver Arrows, or even having the engine from one of them. Well I know the owner is not claiming that it is one of the two missing cars but regardless - how would one go about authenticating the car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, supercargirl said: So how would one go about doing that? If the Harrah Collection couldn't do it with their research resources, it probably can't be done, unless Mr. Kouri's papers show up somewhere. I just looked at my copy of the Ralston book. Ralston says 11 engines in the 360 experimental series, and correctly says that the engines in the three extant SAs are -003, -005, and -007. Ralston does say (shockingly, to me), "Four of the cars survive....one of these was later rebodied as a roadster and became part of the Harrah Collection." That was a great leap of faith on the part of the esteemed late Dr. Ralston. Clearly the Kouri speedster is on a MUCH longer chassis, perhaps (if the chassis is indeed Pierce) a 147" wheelbase that has been stretched. What is the wheelbase? If it's 154" I'd look for similarities to V-16 Cad frames 1934-37; there are Cadillac components on the car. Before representing the car as Ralston termed it a "rebodied Silver Arrow," as part of Due Diligence I'd certainly hire someone like edinmass to examine the car very closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 The Pierce Arrow Society has records of the Silver Arrows and the experimental engines. While I do not have access to those records, I did some research a while back, and came up with the attached list. My printing is somewhat readable, yes I can write cursive, but as a longtime Engineer was used to printing.... My list was called an accurate one when I put it on the PAS forums. It is outdated as far as some current owners, but accurate as to engine numbers. From this, you can see that the five real Silver Arrows are accounted for. The engine in the Kouri speedster is one of the experimental engines, the group of which were used for both Silver Arrows, the speedster, and Ab Jenkins car. Thus, the speedster is not a "missing" Silver Arrow. I've stood next to the car, and there's little Pierce Arrow going on there, other than the engine. Would be curious if the frame is Pierce.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Dr, Ralston's use of the term 'rebodied' implies that the chassis is from one of the five Silver Arrows, It appears that the Kouri speedster has a much longer wheelbase than 139 inches as used in the five SAs. Therefore, the chassis -- including frame, transmission, drum-to-drum rear axle assembly, brakes, and steering -- should be professionally examined to determine whether it is a (lengthened) 1933 Pierce 12 chassis BEFORE relying on Ralston's 37-year-old statement. It COULD be....but I certainly wouldn't claim it as directly and explicitly as Ralston did. I've only seen the car from the public side of the ropes at the Harrah Collection over 40 years ago, so I claim no personal knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Pictures of the car when I saw it at Harrah's, 1985 or so..... 20091218120218394_0002.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted April 12, 2017 Author Share Posted April 12, 2017 (edited) So we know it is rebodied. That's a given. We know it has one of the experimental engines. That is a given. So the chassis needs to be examined. Here are pictures of the car today. Edited April 12, 2017 by supercargirl (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, supercargirl said: So we know it is rebodied. Well, yes, that it is a sui generis body was never at issue. What IS at issue is whether the chassis is/could have been before modification a Pierce 12 chassis, much less one of the original SA chasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 This needs its own thread! I have only a very cursory knowledge of this car (i.e. I have seen pictures) but find it very cool. Is the build date known with 100% certainty? Are there period pictures? Also, what are differences between the Silver Arrow engines and the standard big 12? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted April 12, 2017 Author Share Posted April 12, 2017 I do have to ask - what information was Dr. Ralston working with to deduce that the car is a 1933 Pierce Arrow 12 chassis. One would think that 37 years ago, and being an expert with what would have been current information on hand, he was working with more than we have now. How can we doubt him on some statements but contend that his other facts are infallible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted April 12, 2017 Author Share Posted April 12, 2017 How do we make it its own thread? Let's see what we can find out about this car. It is an awesome and seriously beautiful in person. It already has a lot going for it. Anything more from here is just icing on the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 To put my points another way, **IF** Mr. Kouri placed a Pierce experimental engine and transmission in an otherwise Cad V-16 154" chassis, it is not accurate to say that his speedster is a "rebodied" Silver Arrow. I have no idea what research Dr. Ralston--or the Harrah Collection-- performed. Beauty is in the eye of beholder; it's not my cup of tea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 7 minutes ago, supercargirl said: How can we doubt him on some statements but contend that his other facts are infallible? Same as any other researcher. And use 'correct' rather than 'infallible.' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 The instrument cluster looks a LOT like 31-33 Auburn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted April 12, 2017 Author Share Posted April 12, 2017 Just found this info: Engine# 360003 164inches axle to axle center line Off the frame Horn in the front: 2652-1 Steer box : 25172Front on right side of the axle is SAE1040(then it has an upside down equilateral triangle with vertical lines in the center)A, so: SAE1040(triangle)A Left side of axle: Salisbury 12277 I believe the Harrah's collection of research was just bought by the Rev's Institute as part of another collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 46 minutes ago, supercargirl said: How do we make it its own thread? Let's see what we can find out about this car. It is an awesome and seriously beautiful in person. It already has a lot going for it. Anything more from here is just icing on the cake. You can ask the Moderators to split it out in to its own thread. I find it an interesting discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Yes, we did end up hijacking your original for sale thread (although it keeps bringing the for sale up to the top!)...so a new thread would be good...it's an interesting car with a lot of different Classic car parts, I believe...the engine numbers clearly show that this particular engine was not in a show car Silver Arrow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted April 12, 2017 Author Share Posted April 12, 2017 Wheelbase is 164inches Ten inches longer than a Cadillac. Are any of these numbers identified with a Pierce Arrow or a Cadillac or neither? Off the frame Horn in the front: 2652-1 Steer box : 25172Front on right side of the axle is SAE1040(then it has an upside down equilateral triangle with vertical lines in the center)A, so: SAE1040(triangle)A Left side of axle: Salisbury 12277 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 The SAE 1040 refers to a grade of carbon steel with a high carbon content....so not much of a clue...but I commend you, Supergirl, for finding and sharing the minutia of this vehicle. Is there any way to get it on a lift, and share photographs of the frame and underside? that would be of great interest...thanks... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Henderson Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) The fenders have a '33 Packard look about them. The fronts seem a bit too far forward in relation to the wheel. Edited April 13, 2017 by Dave Henderson (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I am very familiar with this automobile, and had a brief informal discussion about it with the owner at Pebble. It's build date and and build location are known to several people, as are the designer/builders. It's an interesting car. It has not to my knowledge ever been shown. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercargirl Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 I don't believe it has been shown. It is an interesting car. I have not seen all of the information on the car yet. I am representing several of his cars for him and I told him that it was the subject of some interest on the site. I will see the information but it is entirely up to him on how much he wants to share. In the meantime - research is 80% of my business. I love a good mystery and every car I am presented with to sell I first research the heck out of it. I spend a lot of time chasing down leads. Once I was offered an Alfa Romeo 6c 1750 with a Zagato body - but according to the records this particular car left the factory with a James Young body. Long story short, with the help of a florist in a village in England and the town's postman I was able to track down the current owner of the real car. It was still in his garage and still had the James Young body. It had been there for the last 50 years. The car had been recreated as a Zagato because it was of course more desirable and the clowns that did it must have assumed the car was demolished because it had not been seen in public for fifty years. I tell this story only to show that sometimes logic is the best way to solve a puzzle. And so without even seeing the information on this car and based just on what has been written on this site I would have to state this logic: There would have been no reason at all for Kouri to take the engine from a PSA chassis and put it in a Cadillac chassis. Especially as he planned to lengthen the frame anyway. What would have been the point? Further to that is the Ralston book. Ralston had no monetary gain from saying the rebodied car was one of the original cars and his information was much more current and from sources that probably don't even still exist. More points to this chassis being the real thing the argument against it. The Cadillac shouldn't even come into play - couldn't we just as easily claim it was a Lagonda chassis? Just playing the devil's advocate ... Also Ed - Drive it like you stole it - one of my favorite sayings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 The headlights, crossbar, emblem tie bar , and vertical headlight stanchions are 1931 Cadillac, as are the fender lights. Probably the horns too, they look like K-22's. Seems to be home made chrome blocks between the fenders and the Cadillac headlight bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Marc Ralston was a very nice gentlemen, but it was the earlier Pierce Arrow cars that he was most familiar with. There is not much mystery to the car if you get a chance to inspect it top to bottom, front to rear. With that wheelbase it sure would be a challenge to drive it around the back roads of Europe! And at six miles per gallon, your gonna need a credit card with lots of reserve to keep it going down the road. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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