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Riviera63

1963 4 Note Horn Installation Question

46 posts in this topic

Randall,

I'm impressed just by the fact that you still have what looks like a brand new K Mart wood yard stick!!

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10 minutes ago, Rivman said:

Bill,

 

You're welcome.

 

I thought I mentioned it above but just realized I did not, the 3 holes that match the holes in the '63 diagram are all .5" from the edge of the flanges (PICS 1 thru 5).

 

If I were you I think I would get the complete assembly (the brackets), mark the holes from the measurements above, and be sure they match up before drilling them. I'm sure that is your plan, just thought I would mention it.

 

PS: It was 77 and sunny here yesterday, sorry, I just thought I would mention that too.

 

Randall,

 

Thanks for the extra info. I'm glad you talked about matching before drilling. In the excitement of doing a project I sometimes I get ahead of myself and forget to do/check things I should. That is an important step and it will help me remember to do that.

 

Bill

 

P.S. Just when I was starting to think you were a nice guy you throw in that dig about the weather. We may break 50 today. I probably won't be able to get the car out for another month. 

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Just to add a caution to this installation. When drilling for the holes use a STOP/TAPE or something so the drill bit doesn't go to far & damage the outside of the hood surface.

 

 

Tom T.

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1 hour ago, telriv said:

Just to add a caution to this installation. When drilling for the holes use a STOP/TAPE or something so the drill bit doesn't go to far & damage the outside of the hood surface.

 

 

Tom T.

 

Tom,

 

Thanks for that. I will add it to the list. It would be easy to do with possibly disastrous results.

 

Bill 

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On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 4:08 PM, telriv said:

Just to add a caution to this installation. When drilling for the holes use a STOP/TAPE or something so the drill bit doesn't go to far & damage the outside of the hood surface.

 

 

Tom T.

Tom does mention a GREAT point here!

 

I was drilling an inside bracket on my '95, for a stupid reason by the way, and when it went through the bracket the bit grabbed the hole and I dented the trunk lid!

 

Probably best to use a drill stop, and even put a piece of scrap sheet metal between the brace and the hood surface to keep the bit from denting it.

 

Great suggestionTom!

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On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 8:36 AM, DShip said:

Randall,

I'm impressed just by the fact that you still have what looks like a brand new K Mart wood yard stick!!

Actually not brand new Ship, that one is missing about the last 3 inches, it just doesn't show in the picture.

 

I do have another one that IS 36" though, with me having almost 20 years with them, and Gwyn was there 28 years, we certainly have a few souvenirs from there around.

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Hi All,

 

I have started the installation of my 4 note horn set. I have both of the horns mounted to the hood and the hood appears to shut with no interference or problems. I have a question about the wiring. The wiring I received with the set appears to be correct but, incomplete. From what I can gather there should be a black ground wire that that attaches to a tab at the base of large horn, goes to the screw that holds the L-shaped bracket for the smaller horn to the hood and then is attached to the firewall with a screw. Can anyone confirm for me if this is correct and if it is not, what is the correct grounding route and/or procedure? Thanks.

 

Bill

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Grounding takes place through bolting the horns to the body.  One 12V source is all the wiring that is necessary.  

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Jim Cannon knows the correct wiring as I gave him the info directly from my car yrs. ago.

 

 

Tom T.

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29 minutes ago, telriv said:

Jim Cannon knows the correct wiring as I gave him the info directly from my car yrs. ago.

 

 

Tom T.

 

I will check with Jim to be sure. I am thinking that a grounding wire is correct. When you mount the horns to the hood it is paint on paint and the attaching holes on the brackets are larger than the self-tapping screws, so the chance of contact is slim. I hooked the wire up to the horns. No sound from the added horns at all when the horn bar pressed. Would get noise from the original horns once in awhile. With the wiring harness off and back to original the stock horns work perfectly every time. I have attached copies of what is shown in the 1963 Service Manual. It shows a grounding wire to each horn. 

 

Bill

 

593a8f8f2c31f_4NoteHornGroundWire.thumb.jpg.d49bd56db27409d04a541e2f484d85e7.jpg593a8f9996d67_4NoteHornGroundWire2.thumb.jpg.45564d12d83f0aabcadc640b89f11f13.jpg

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On my what I believe to be original 63 a ground wire goes from rear horn bolt to fire wall.

imported 6-9-17 188.JPG

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3 minutes ago, Chasander said:

On my what I believe to be original 63 a ground wire goes from rear horn bolt to fire wall.

imported 6-9-17 188.JPG

 

Chuck,

 

Thanks for that. That is what is shown in the Service Manual. Does that ground wire connect to each of the horns as well? 

 

Bill

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2 hours ago, Chasander said:

 

 

Chuck,

 

Where does the end of the wire that is not attached to the firewall go? Thanks.

 

Bill

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29 minutes ago, Riviera63 said:

 

Chuck,

 

Where does the end of the wire that is not attached to the firewall go? Thanks.

 

Bill

 

It goes under the rear-most horn mounting screw that mounts the trumpet to the underside of the hood.

 

The shop manual was written and printed BEFORE the Buick engineers decided that they needed to add a muffler to the A/C system on the '63 Riviera.  So it shows the horns separated under the hood, one over by the A/C compressor and one by the brake booster.

 

Not too long into production the muffler was added.  That forced them to move the small trumpet over to the driver's side (and add a dimple to the big black vacuum storage reservoir on the inner fender).  That is the way most cars should be.  Only the very early Rivs (with FB number 4000 and lower) should have no A/C muffler, no dimple in the can, and the small trumpet on the passenger side, if so equipped.   

 

 

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2 hours ago, Chasander said:

 

 

Correct!  Once you add one ground wire, you have grounded the entire hood.  The other horn gets its ground through the hood.

 

 

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Bill,

  If you refer to post #35 fig. 11-202 the engineers are grounding the left horn and in the diagram it says "to the right side" for the ground wire. I realize this is an early arrangement but if they grounded both horns in that arrangement it makes sense that the grounding needs in the later arrangement did not change. Horns pull quite a few amps and demand a good solid ground to sound properly. "Clean, bright and tight"! A hinge is not a solid connection by its nature and although it is likely a ground will be obtained one way or another (thru the hinges or latch when the hood is closed) such a ground may not be consistent.

I sent you a diagram with measurements for installation...what is the wiring arrangement on that diagram?

  Tom

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7 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Bill,

  If you refer to post #35 fig. 11-202 the engineers are grounding the left horn and in the diagram it says "to the right side" for the ground wire. I realize this is an early arrangement but if they grounded both horns in that arrangement it makes sense that the grounding needs in the later arrangement did not change. Horns pull quite a few amps and demand a good solid ground to sound properly. "Clean, bright and tight"! A hinge is not a solid connection by its nature and although it is likely a ground will be obtained one way or another (thru the hinges or latch when the hood is closed) such a ground may not be consistent.

I sent you a diagram with measurements for installation...what is the wiring arrangement on that diagram?

  Tom

 

Tom,

 

I have a copy of the 64 Service Manual page and the 65 page that you sent me. Both seem to show a ground wire going just from the small horn lower bracket to the firewall. Neither seems to show a wire from the large horn to the smaller horn as the 63 Service Manual shows. It is hard to tell though as the 64 & 65 copies I have are fairly small and slightly blurry. 

 

I do have the horns mounted and the hood seems to close with no problems. I had a ground wire made and have it attached. I ran it from the lower bracket on the small horn to the firewall. There was a phillips screw in my firewall that served no apparent purpose and it seemed to be in a good location so I did not even have to drill a hole. Jim Cannon suggested using star washers on the ground wire connections and also to put one on one of the the bolts for the larger horn to get a good bite on the metal through the paint. I did as Jim suggested with the star washers. I did install the main wiring yet as I am having a couple of the connector connections redone as they seemed a bit iffy. I tested each horn separately by using a jumper wire to the battery. Both horns worked to perfection. The horn tone had been adjusted by the vendor before he sent them to me. The sound seemed good to me. We'll see how things work when I get the main harness installed. 

 

Thanks to Chuck for the ground wire picture and thanks to Jim for all of his advice that he sent my way in this thread and via a PM. 

 

Bill

 

20170609_133639.thumb.jpg.d3b2579718eb4a8f18377f9fc08cc3a3.jpgIMG_2765.thumb.JPG.f13019554123d4a0e8baa6da3ab6c217.JPG

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On 6/8/2017 at 10:09 PM, RivNut said:

Grounding takes place through bolting the horns to the body.  One 12V source is all the wiring that is necessary.  

I guess I got lucky when I replaced the horns on my car (they had been stolen from the car before I bought it) Because I didn't run a ground wire. I'm guessing that there was sufficient ground through the hinges so that they'd work.  When I get back to this car, I'll add the ground strap just for good measure.

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5 hours ago, Riviera63 said:

 

Tom,

 

I have a copy of the 64 Service Manual page and the 65 page that you sent me. Both seem to show a ground wire going just from the small horn lower bracket to the firewall. Neither seems to show a wire from the large horn to the smaller horn as the 63 Service Manual shows. It is hard to tell though as the 64 & 65 copies I have are fairly small and slightly blurry. 

 

I do have the horns mounted and the hood seems to close with no problems. I had a ground wire made and have it attached. I ran it from the lower bracket on the small horn to the firewall. There was a phillips screw in my firewall that served no apparent purpose and it seemed to be in a good location so I did not even have to drill a hole. Jim Cannon suggested using star washers on the ground wire connections and also to put one on one of the the bolts for the larger horn to get a good bite on the metal through the paint. I did as Jim suggested with the star washers. I did install the main wiring yet as I am having a couple of the connector connections redone as they seemed a bit iffy. I tested each horn separately by using a jumper wire to the battery. Both horns worked to perfection. The horn tone had been adjusted by the vendor before he sent them to me. The sound seemed good to me. We'll see how things work when I get the main harness installed. 

 

Thanks to Chuck for the ground wire picture and thanks to Jim for all of his advice that he sent my way in this thread and via a PM. 

 

Bill

 

20170609_133639.thumb.jpg.d3b2579718eb4a8f18377f9fc08cc3a3.jpgIMG_2765.thumb.JPG.f13019554123d4a0e8baa6da3ab6c217.JPG

Yes, one ground wire should work as it grounds the inner structure of the hood which both horns are mounted to. I checked the late `63 thru `65 illustration and the factory only used one ground wire to the small horn on the Riviera. Looking thru the shop manual I realized I had seen each horn grounded by an individual ground wire on the full size cars...because the small horn is piggyback mounted to the large horn via an insulated clamp a dedicated ground for each horn is necessary.

I also recall a service bulletin regarding the rear most screw for the small horn interfering with the top of the cowl. I suspect it is a `65 bulletin,

  Tom

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12 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

I also recall a service bulletin regarding the rear most screw for the small horn interfering with the top of the cowl. I suspect it is a `65 bulletin,

  Tom

 

You are correct, Tom.  A service Bulletin was issued on February 22, 1963 listing several possible interferences of the 4-note horns with things under the hood on the driver's side.  They are in Bulletin number 63-48, in Group 11, sequence number 11-10.

 

Some of them came up when they moved both horns to that side.  Others were intended to be dealt with on the assembly line but were missed.

 

</begin shameless plug>

 

I sell the Service Bulletins on CD for all 3 years of the First Gen. Rivs.  Email me if you would like to buy any or all of them.. Cheap.  Really.

 

</end shameless plug>

 

I'm glad to hear that the horns sound good with the ground wire added.

 

 

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