The right car for Peking to Paris 2019 Rally?

[Patrick De]

Hi,

I have registred for driving the 2019 Peking to Paris Rally. So looking for the right kind of car to do this 8.000 miles, of which more than half 'offroad'.

Musts: 1928 -1935 American roadster car with 4 leaf springs, 'high' groundclearance, 2 sparewheels (on the front sides), and least a 'powerfull' straight six engine which is very very reliable, able to drive with heavy load (extra fuel,etc...) in hight temperatures.

As the offers for such cars here in Europe is rather limited, the only one that pleases me a lot for the moment is a 1931 Chrysler CD Deluxe straight 8 with a Carlton body. See picture. 

Everything looks great and can be optimalised, only question is, is the rare 282cid straight 8 engine 100% reliable (after a full overhaul) and are all pieces for it available? Is there a manual 4 gears gearbox available for it?

Or does someone know a much better (offordable) alternative?

Thanks in advance to all for you feedback. 

Kind regards,
Patrick

[Rusty_OToole]

When I read the title about Peking to Paris the first thought that popped into my head was "Chrysler". Given your requirements you could do a lot worse. I think Chrysler did offer a 4 speed that year but they were not popular because they did not do anything. They had an extremely low, 1st gear that was never needed.

 

As to it being "reliable" maybe it was in 1931 but it passed its Best Before date during the Roosevelt administration.

 

Your requirements are so strict and so limited, you probably aren't going to do any better.

[nzcarnerd]

Will the coachbuilt body survive the poor roads?

 

RE the 4 speed box there is a video which explains it  -  

 

[1939_Buick]

1 hour ago, nzcarnerd said:

Will the coach built body survive the poor roads?

Doubt it.  Would be s sad end to fine rare car: A unique Carlton body on a good straight 8 chassis

And the Chrysler 8 cylinder is relatively rare.

The Chrysler 6 cylinder are tough & durable and were in production for decades, in various forms

 

Patrick De: how much research have you done on cars that do these sort of trips.

Better to start with a less than pristine - show car, as shown above

A few years ago there was some one on the forum who was building a car for such a trip

 

 

 

 

[alsancle]

What a cool car. I agree do not destroy it in the rally.   There are lots of cheaper choices with a similar chassis and would not damage what maybe a one of one car.

[Rusty_OToole]

I had my doubts about a British coachbuilt body standing the gaff myself. But, he did specify a 'roadster' which limits the choices considerably.

 

Another good choice would be Cadillac but the last one with leaf springs at all 4 corners was 1931.

 

Whatever he uses is more or less a goner. Will be heavily modified and thrashed within an inch of its life. Even if it survives will never be the same again.

 

Wonder if a Model A might not be the best choice? If he could keep the speed down and the load down.

[Restorer32]

Thomas Flyer?

[Patrick De]

 

 

1 hour ago, 1939_Buick said:

Doubt it.  Would be s sad end to fine rare car: A unique Carlton body on a good straight 8 chassis

And the Chrysler 8 cylinder is relatively rare.

The Chrysler 6 cylinder are tough & durable and were in production for decades, in various forms

 

Patrick De: how much research have you done on cars that do these sort of trips.

Better to start with a less than pristine - show car, as shown above

A few years ago there was some one on the forum who was building a car for such a trip

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Patrick De
no text (see edit history)

[vermontboy]

Model "A"s have made the trip up from South America many times before a complete system of roads existed. No doubt it would make it if anything would and it is certainly "affordable" ... 

[mercer09]

Beautiful car, but I agree, would be silly to use such a fine car for that trip.

 

Why not go with a straight 8 Buick???????? Dependable and parts availability.

[Patrick De]

Hi to all,

thanks for your replies. A forum talk is new to me, and not in my motherlanguage . So sorry if I do not express myself.

I have to admit I'm a little bit shocked from the reactions.

Yes, I had a close look to the participants and their results on the previous P2P rallies on their website: http://www2.endurorally.com/pp2016/results.php

As we want to be in the pre-1941 class, with an open '1920-ies look' car and after having spoken to a specialist in endurance rally preparation regarding the requirements, I barely found (cheaper) alternatives than this Chrysler here in Europe.

I did look for a Chrysler series 75 or 77, but I have found nothing. Is this possible??

The Ford A is indeed a very good car, but is for several reasons not an option.

It's clear to me now about the gearbox, thanks.

The only thing we are worried about is the engine. Even after a full overhaul. If you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-eight_engine 

It says: "Also, due to the length of the engine, torsional vibration in both crankshaft and camshaft can adversely affect reliability and performance at high speeds. In particular, a phenomenon referred to as "crankshaft whip," caused by the effects of centrifugal force on the crank throws at high engine rpm, can cause physical contact between the connecting rods and crankcase walls, leading to the engine's destruction. As a result, the design has been displaced almost completely by the shorter V8 engine configuration."

Others say that the last cylinders will overheat and that the cylinderheadgasket will not hold it, as we have quite some extra load and hot temperatures.

All theory,... but only you all know if this is true or not.

It is surely not my intention of 'thrashing' the car, but finding a difficult balance between endurance capabilities and a nice goodlooking pre war car.

 

[F&J]

31 minutes ago, Patrick De said:

affect reliability and performance at high speeds. In particular, a phenomenon referred to as "crankshaft whip," caused by the effects of centrifugal force on the crank throws at high engine rpm, can cause physical contact between the connecting rods and crankcase walls, leading to the engine's destruction.

 

They are talking of over-revving the engine for long durations.  Anybody can ruin something by beating it to death

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Patrick De said:

As a result, the design has been displaced almost completely by the shorter V8 engine configuration."

But why did Buick and Pontiac keep the inline 8 until the early 1950s, if they are not adequate, or dependable? 

 

Wiki is made from comments from "anybody with a keyboard", certainly not guaranteed to be 100% accurate info, or even telling the whole story 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no idea what conditions are like in that race.  I'd be asking those people who have done the race before/

 

.

[Curti]

In my opinion the Chrysler six would be a better option. If I am not mistaking a 1959 Plymouth engine would interchange.  

With an Auburn, the six cylinder is a better running and more well balanced automobile than the eight. 

[vermontboy]

"But why did Buick and Pontiac keep the inline 8 until the early 1950s, if they are not adequate, or dependable? "

 

Buick's straight 8 is OHV and a totally different animal. Pontiac in the early 50's was more of an old person's car.....

 

If you are going to run any flathead straight 8 at high revs for long periods of time in high heat you are going to want to carry an extra head gasket with you. Milling the head flat may or may not help depending on the individual casting and how it is stressed. Make certain to carefully follow the head bolt torque sequence and go through at least three passes increasing torque each time to "iron" the head and gasket flat. Flathead straight 8's are wonderful engines for what they were designed for.

[Willie Wurke]

Roger James of D&D Classic Car Restorations did this run a few years ago. He ran a flathead Ford V-8. I think it was 1949 model but not positive.

 

HE IS ONE FINE PERSON AND CAN POSSIBLY GIVE YOU SOME POINTERS. CALL HIM AT 937-473-2229.

 

Heres wishing you a good trip

 

[Rusty_OToole]

The article you quote is nonsense. No straight eight has such problems especially Chrysler.

 

There is one thing you do have to look out for. They are a long stroke engine not made for continuous high speeds. When they were made  driving for long periods at over 60 MPH was almost unheard of. If you wish to drive continuously at high speeds the engine will need to be in perfect condition. I don't think this will be a problem if the rally is on dirt roads.

 

I could explain why straight eight engines were the first choice for American luxury car makers from 1923 to 1949 but it would take too long. Suffice it to say that for the road conditions, fuel etc available at the time they were the best alternative.

 

For this kind of work Buick would not be my first choice.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

A Ford V8 would also fill the bill and be a lot better and faster than a Model A. They had solid axles and leaf springs up to 1948. They did not have 4 springs but 2, acting as quarter elliptics. The ride would be rough but they are a durable car, and one of the cheapest to buy and prepare. All parts are available because they are the most popular with restorers and hot rodders.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[cahartley]

5 hours ago, Patrick De said:

Hi to all,

thanks for your replies. A forum talk is new to me, and not in my motherlanguage . So sorry if I do not express myself.

 

 

 

You express yourself a lot better than a whole lot of native born Americans.

Sad to say but it's the truth....... 

[Rusty_OToole]

Plymouth and Dodge made reliable six cylinder cars with solid axles and leaf springs all around up until 1938. Not known as speed demons but reliable and a plugger. Engine was one of the first with full pressure lubrication, insert bearings and aluminum pistons. A 1937 or 38 Dodge sedan would be an excellent choice for the trip you contemplate. Lots of them survive, they are not expensive and parts are readily available.

[Patrick De]

3 hours ago, Willie Wurke said:

Roger James of D&D Classic Car Restorations did this run a few years ago. He ran a flathead Ford V-8. I think it was 1949 model but not positive.

 

HE IS ONE FINE PERSON AND CAN POSSIBLY GIVE YOU SOME POINTERS. CALL HIM AT 937-473-2229.

 

Heres wishing you a good trip

 

 

Thanks! I surely will contact him. Looks really interesting after having seen his website.

[Patrick De]

1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Plymouth and Dodge made reliable six cylinder cars with solid axles and leaf springs all around up until 1938. Not known as speed demons but reliable and a plugger. Engine was one of the first with full pressure lubrication, insert bearings and aluminum pistons. A 1937 or 38 Dodge sedan would be an excellent choice for the trip you contemplate. Lots of them survive, they are not expensive and parts are readily available.

 

Hi Rusty,

After having looked hours this night on the internet, after having read all replies,  this Chrysler stays my first choise as I can really buy it cheap and it fullfills a lot of our recuirements. (we are a team)

I have read your 2013 article about the straight 8 that you have found which powered a yard crane. So I think you have quite some experience about this engine.

 

An English mechanic with lots of experience on enduration rallies told me yesterday evening the following,

Before doing the overhaul he proposes to do a fully loaded testdrive to analyse with several digital temperature gauges how heat the engine gets, and where. 

If this is acceptable, I have two options;

1/ keeping the L8, making a full overhaul but putting 2 (or 3) carburetors on it so that every cylinder gets the same amount of mixture. (Which is now not the case he says - sounds logic) This will increase the power a lot and allow us to drive on low rpm when whe check (and adjust) the gear and rear axle ratios. And carry 2 extra gaskets like Vermontboy says. "keeping eyes open"

 

2/ putting an overhauled L6 in it, with 2 good carburetors for the same reason. "No stress".

 

Both options with a big, high performance radiator and an extra electrical waterpump allowing the engine to cool down slowly when she runs no more.

What do you think about that?

Does a L6 fit on the present bell housing? 

 

Thanks in advance for your reply.

 

 

4 hours ago, vermontboy said:

"But why did Buick and Pontiac keep the inline 8 until the early 1950s, if they are not adequate, or dependable? "

 

Buick's straight 8 is OHV and a totally different animal. Pontiac in the early 50's was more of an old person's car.....

 

If you are going to run any flathead straight 8 at high revs for long periods of time in high heat you are going to want to carry an extra head gasket with you. Milling the head flat may or may not help depending on the individual casting and how it is stressed. Make certain to carefully follow the head bolt torque sequence and go through at least three passes increasing torque each time to "iron" the head and gasket flat. Flathead straight 8's are wonderful engines for what they were designed for.

 

Hi mister,

 

thanks a lot for this very interesting information. See what I wrote to Rusty. It is indeed foreseen that we will mill the head and block and do a overhaul to the highest standards.  Also a more rich mixture helps to prevent overheating I have learned.

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

The Studebaker 8s had 9 main bearings and are fairly strong. If I remember correctly, a 1929 President was prepared for that trip or one similar.

 

The question is, why is that rare Chrysler 8 you are looking at so cheap?

[Patrick De]

1 hour ago, Spinneyhill said:

The Studebaker 8s had 9 main bearings and are fairly strong. If I remember correctly, a 1929 President was prepared for that trip or one similar.

 

The question is, why is that rare Chrysler 8 you are looking at so cheap?

 

Hi,

 

yes, 9 main bearings are indeed a substantial technical advantage.

However, as we want our car and the spirit to be as close to the original 1907 Peking to Paris, we definitly want a open car with maximum the late 20s look. A Ford A would have been a good choise for the first 5000 miles, as those are very tough, but afterwards, when arriving in Western Europe on crowdy normal road, you get to much disadvantages.

 

Big engined (slow) prewar cars seem to be cheaper in Europe than in the States. Except for the exotics as Lagonda, Bentley, etc... Right hand drive is also a disadvantage. 

 

The car looks nice from far, but isn't that good when you look close.

 

@Rusty_OToole How many mains has 'our' Chrysler straight 8?

 

Regards,

[Rusty_OToole]

Do yourself a favor and leave the engine stock. Do not add more carburetors. It will do more harm than good. Do not raise compression if you want the head gasket to last.

 

If you want to finish low stress is the goal. Do not soup up the engine,  do not carry any more weight than you have to. And do not go any faster than you have to especially on bad roads.

 

I believe the 31 Chrysler 8 had 5 main bearings. It doesn't matter. You can trust Chrysler engineers to get it right. They were perfectly aware of the problems of cooling and mixture distribution. One potential problem is the water distribution tube, it can rust away over the years. If it is shot all the cooling water streams up the front of the engine, leaving the front cool and the back of the engine hot. If the tube is intact and not clogged with silt or lime the back cylinders will run as cool as the front. You can check this with an electronic thermometer after a drive.

 

It is one of the last they made with poured babbitt bearings, they were the first to introduce insert bearings in 1934. If they need to be replaced poured babbitt bearings cost $200 each and that car has 13 of them. Insert bearings cost $10.

 

Studebaker's big six and straight eight Presidents are excellent cars, rather larger and heavier than the Chrysler you are looking at. More in the Cadillac and Packard class, would make a good choice if you could find one.

 

Chrysler introduced a new flathead six in 1937. They continued using it in cars until 1954, trucks until 1962, in military vehicles, industrial and marine applications until 1972. Parts for this engine are readily available and not expensive. This is the reason I suggested a 1937 or 38 Dodge or Plymouth. Or for that matter, DeSoto or Chrysler.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

If your English mechanic thinks he knows better than the engineers at Chrysler you need a better car, or a better mechanic. Ask him which car company does not make basic mistakes in design, and buy one of theirs. Do not buy a car made by people too dumb to get the basics right even with a team of engineers, full laboratory and research facilities, thousands of miles on the test track and millions of miles of customer beta testing to go by.

[Rusty_OToole]

I looked at the results list you linked. Was not surprised that Chrysler and Dodge featured prominently, taking 4 of the first 10 places. Ford also did well. Was surprised by the number of Chevrolets as they were not known as a high speed car in those days. I suspect they had newer engines, or engines modified with better bearings and lubrication systems.

 

The Bentleys did well. They are an expensive car but evidently well suited to this type of competition.

[F&J]

"70 Years of Chrysler" book shows 4 different straight eights in 1931:

 

first was 240 C.I. 80 HP   engine numbers CD-1001 to CD 11531

 

second was 260 C.I. 88 HP numbers CD-11532 to CD-15999

 

third was 282 C.I. 100 HP numbers CD-16000 to CD-21140

 

forth was the Imperial 384 C.I. 125 HP   Numbers CG-1001 to CG-3751.  This is the only one that lists how many main bearings which was NINE.  The others do not show how many main bearings.

 

.

[edinmass]

My local shop help set up a car for the same rally. If your serious about completing this thing, you need lots more than just a car. Extra wheels, tires, water pump, starter, generator, just to start. I would have extra springs all around, shocks, .......the list is endless. We upgraded known weak points on the early thirties straight Eight we helped out with. New shackles and pins, all new front end parts, rebuilt steering box, spare clutch and pressure plate, even extra glass all around. I would recommend buying two cars, one for spares and one to drive. It's not the make that is important, it's the preparation. Figure that if you start with a well restored car, your gonna need to spend fifty grand in upgrades, plus extras. Test miles, gearing, mpg, oil consumption should be all figured out ahead of time. At the end of the race, plan on throwing the car away, of doing a total restoration. I have seen people with very deep pockets fail in this endeavor, and also, plan on a master mechanic to ride with you , your gonna need him! 

 

I see you looking at "cheap" cars to make this run, very bad idea, cheap cars usually have not been maintained. If cost figures in on this trip, don't do it. I have seen a team with almost limitless money fail. Money won't fix a broken 90 year old car in the middle of nowhere. 

Edited March 19, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

If I was planning an expedition like this my first thought would be finishing. I would not modify the engine for performance in any way, keep it all stock. Do not over stress the engine and do not go for extra power that will over stress the chassis, drive train and brakes. If you want a faster car start with a faster car which implies a newer, larger car.

 

I would also carry the minimum of parts and equipment (weight). Ed, all those extra parts imply a support vehicle to carry them is that right?

 

I hadn't thought of the level of preparation necessary but what Ed says makes sense.

 

The slower you go the better chance you have of finishing and not breaking down.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Patrick De]

38 minutes ago, edinmass said:

My local shop help set up a car for the same rally. If your serious about completing this thing, you need lots more than just a car. Extra wheels, tires, water pump, starter, generator, just to start. I would have extra springs all around, shocks, .......the list is endless. We upgraded known weak points on the early thirties straight Eight we helped out with. New shackles and pins, all new front end parts, rebuilt steering box, spare clutch and pressure plate, even extra glass all around. I would recommend buying two cars, one for spares and one to drive. It's not the make that is important, it's the preparation. Figure that if you start with a well restored car, your gonna need to spend fifty grand in upgrades, plus extras. Test miles, gearing, mpg, oil consumption should be all figured out ahead of time. At the end of the race, plan on throwing the car away, of doing a total restoration. I have seen people with very deep pockets fail in this endeavor, and also, plan on a master mechanic to ride with you , your gonna need him! 

 

I see you looking at "cheap" cars to make this run, very bad idea, cheap cars usually have not been maintained. If cost figures in on this trip, don't do it. I have seen a team with almost limitless money fail. Money won't fix a broken 90 year old car in the middle of nowhere. 

Hi,

I'm fully aware of what you write. 2 colleague car dealers here in Belgium drove it and ended in top ten. We had already some meetings. Only difference is that my pockets are not so deep as theirs.  Intention is to have the car ready by autumn next year and to do several 1000 of testmiles in 'offroad' rally's in Scottland, Africa and Eastern Europe so that we 'feel' and know the car as good as possible. Rally Preparation Services https://www.rpsrally.com/  have tons of experiences in this kind or rally's, and they will assist us.  

With 'cheap' I mean not small money but the best deal for my money, in a class lower than Bentley, Lagonda, etc..

 

As I'm already 30 years in the car business of premium German cars I know for 100% sure that a eg the first common rail Mercedes models are really not good, same for the Porsche 996 first series, same for the E60 model in BMW which is much more reliable than the E39, and I can go on for a while.

It is this knowledge I don't have with pre war cars and that I would like to learn on this forum

The cars which suit our requirements are not so easy to find. So we have to do with what is now on the market. 

 

The Chrysler I have reserved is most close to what we want. It has no use to talk about eg a Chrysler 75, because I don't find one. And we don't want to lose more time in looking for a car that we maybe wil never find.

If this one car is already hard to find, I will not dream of finding a second similar. Except if I should buy a Ford A eg, but this is not an option.

Only question mark is if we do it with the straight 8 or put a straight 6 in it. 

 

 

 

[Patrick De]

39 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

If I was planning an expedition like this my first thought would be finishing. I would not modify the engine for performance in any way, keep it all stock. Do not over stress the engine and do not go for extra power that will over stress the chassis, drive train and brakes. If you want a faster car start with a faster car which implies a newer, larger car.

 

I would also carry the minimum of parts and equipment (weight). Ed, all those extra parts imply a support vehicle to carry them is that right?

 

I hadn't thought of the level of preparation necessary but what Ed says makes sense.

 

The slower you go the better chance you have of finishing and not breaking down.

 

Weight is the enemy, preparation and testdriving is your friend. 

A support vehicle is not allowed. Big cars or jeeps may not carry spares for other cars. 

The winning team last year had 2 similar Chryler 75's and they have split the spare parts in both vehicles.

 

It's a race against time, it all begins and ends with how slow you dare to go....

 

[Mark Shaw]

I have a 1924 Master 6 Buick Pickup with a new radiator core that would work well with some modifications...

[Patrick De]

18 minutes ago, Mark Shaw said:

I have a 1924 Master 6 Buick Pickup with a new radiator core that would work well with some modifications...

 

Something I did not expect. Fix seats I see. Are you comfortable in it  for a 300 hours drive when you're more than 6 feet tall?  What brakes and engine power? Price?

[Mark Huston]

8 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

The Studebaker 8s had 9 main bearings and are fairly strong. If I remember correctly, a 1929 President was prepared for that trip or one similar.

 

 

Yes, a 1929 Studebaker FH Victoria participated in the Peking to Paris race.   I have attached a PDF of the May - June 2011 Antique Studebaker Review article regarding that race.   Please note:  When opening the PDF to read click on View, on your computer's toolbar, to adjust the page rotation for reading.   My scanner and the magazine format did not match.  

1929 Studebaker Peking to Paris.pdf

[alsancle]

Ouch,  what is the bicycle tire mounted to the sidemount for?

 

Re the Buick,  neat car for sure but wood wheels feels like a bad idea.

[Patrick De]

1 hour ago, Mark Huston said:

 

 

Yes, a 1929 Studebaker FH Victoria participated in the Peking to Paris race.   I have attached a PDF of the May - June 2011 Antique Studebaker Review article regarding that race.   Please note:  When opening the PDF to read click on View, on your computer's toolbar, to adjust the page rotation for reading.   My scanner and the magazine format did not match.  

1929 Studebaker Peking to Paris.pdf

 

Mark,

 

thanks a lot for this very interesting article!

[Rusty_OToole]

Wood wheels were used because they were better on the rough roads of the period. They absorbed shocks and vibration, and could bend away when they hit a rock and spring back. A steel wheel would bend permanently and a wire wheel would break spokes hitting rocks a wood wheel would shrug off.

 

I don't think I would trust near 100 year old wood wheels in a rally but if they could be rebuilt with new hickory, I would prefer them to wire or steel.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Why do you insist on a roadster  body and solid axles with leaf springs front and rear? These requirements severely limit your choices, raise costs and may force you to use an unsuitable car, when better cars can be found for less money.

[nzcarnerd]

I notice reading through this thread that the poster is more concerned about mechanical reliability. That is all very well but my concerns about the strength of the Carlton body have not been answered. It must be super rare car so it would be a pity if it was destroyed.

Edited March 20, 2017 by nzcarnerd (see edit history)

[1939_Buick]

8 hours ago, Patrick De said:

However, as we want our car and the spirit to be as close to the original 1907 Peking to Paris, we definitely want a open car with maximum the late 20s look. A Ford A would have been a good choice for the first 5000 miles, as those are very tough, but afterwards, when arriving in Western Europe on crowdy normal road, you get to much disadvantages.

The car will be trashed after the event, if it survives. Many do not. It is not a race, but a hard endurance event.

Have read the fuel grade/quality is poor in many places, so a low compression engine is better than a high compression.

A car with a wood framed body (coachbuilt) such as the Carlton is likely fall apart from the road conditions.

There is a big difference between a 1907 design & 1920's so your car will not be "close to the original" in "spirit"