1953 Special - Smoke from crank case ventilation tube

[Guest biodegraded]

Hi all,

 

I've been noticing a lot of smoke coming from the crankcase ventilation tube, especially when accelerating.  Is this normal?  Do I have bad rings?  Any other reasons this might be happening?  Would an oil treatment help at all? If so, what would you recommend?

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Corbin

[old-tank]

First treatment:  change the oil and take it out for long, long run on the highway.  Volatile gases and water get dissolved in the oil and will smoke like that.  If the fun run on the highway does nothing then compression checks to verify severely  worn piston rings.

[Guest biodegraded]

On 3/14/2017 at 3:52 PM, old-tank said:

First treatment:  change the oil and take it out for long, long run on the highway.  Volatile gases and water get dissolved in the oil and will smoke like that.  If the fun run on the highway does nothing then compression checks to verify severely  worn piston rings.

Thanks, Tank. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Guest biodegraded]

Sorry in advance for the incredibly long post. I have additional info (possibly) on this issue and I'm hoping maybe someone can help me trouble shoot. 

 

There is a long steep hill on my way to work that is about 5 min from my house. The last three times I've driven the Buick to work, it bogs down and loses power at exactly the same spot, right when I start up that hill. I have it floored but only creep up the hill at about 30 mph. At the top of the hill after a little ways it picks up again. It even alternating surged and hesitated one day all the way up the hill. It felt like it wasn't getting enough fuel. I couldn't even get the RPMs up. On the way home on level road or up smaller hills it runs smooth and strong. No problem accelerating. 

 

So I checked the fuel pump pressure and it was 5psi which I think is sufficient from what I could find. I checked compression and cylinder #8 had zero pressure. One other cylinder was at 90 psi but all others were at 120psi. 

 

I poured 1 Tb of oil in the two low cylinders to see if I could get the pressure to come up, but #8 stayed at zero. The other low cylinder did come up to 120 which the internet tells  me that means I'm getting a little blow by past the rings on that cylinder. The internet also suggests that # 8 staying at zero means it's a stuck valve or something similar. What do others think?

 

After checking all those things, I put new plugs in. The old ones were looking a little black like it's been running rich. Then I took her out for a test drive up the big hill. She pulled fine and strong. Accelerated all the way up. Considering all these things, I have a few questions. 

 

Would a stuck valve cause all my symptoms? My symptoms (original and new) are smoke out the crank ventilation tube under acceleration. Smoke out the tail pipe under acceleration. Soot and water out the tailpipe on startup. No power or RPMs when going up a steep hill (except for my last test drive after changing the plugs). 

 

Do I have multiple things going wrong or would they all be related?

 

I'm thinking the blow by on the one cylinder could be causing the smoke. I'm hoping the #8 cylinder with zero pressure is a valve instead of rings because I am guessing a stuck valve would be easier to deal with. But I don't have any experience with doing valve jobs. Can anyone give me advice on that front? 

 

I know this is a long post, but maybe there's a Dr. House of Buicks out there that can diagnose all my symptoms as caused by one thing and give me some good advice. 

 

Thanks for all the help. I'm learning but I've got a long way to go and you guys are helping me get there!

 

 

[EmTee]

Zero compression in #8 certainly sounds like a valve issue.  If you have access to an air compressor you could perform a leakdown test on that cylinder.  Really, all that is necessary is to adapt fittings to pressurize the cylinder through the spark plug hole.  Bring that cylinder to TDC on the power stroke (verify the rotor is pointing at #8 terminal on the distributor cap).  Then apply the air and listen for where it is escaping.  If the hiss is at the tail pipe it's a stuck or burnt exhaust valve.  If it's hissing through the carb, then it's an intake valve issue.  In either case, I would then pull the valve cover and see what's going on with the pushrod and rocker shaft.

[JohnD1956]

I'm sure you would feel that missing cylinder on that hill.  If it went away with a new plug, just check the compression on that cylinder again now.  If it's still 0 then I agree with Emtee's recommendation.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Kiljoy here!  Zero compression and a lot of crankcase vapors may be a piston with a hole. When you DO the test as EmTee suggested, if the hissing is from the crankcase vents, guess what?

 

  Where are you located?

 

  Ben

Edited April 9, 2017 by Ben Bruce aka First Born (see edit history)

[EmTee]

9 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Zero compression and a lot of crankcase vapors may be a piston with a hole.

 

Absolutely -- I've never experienced that one personally, but I have read in other threads on this site that piston failure is a possibility with nailheads.  So, yeah, like Ben said...

 

... as for the spark plug change, I'll guess that there may have been another cylinder with a fouled plug.  So, maybe the new plugs got you from 6 1/2 cylinders to 7.

Edited April 9, 2017 by EmTee (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Pull the head and keep repeating "I am only going to fix what I find wrong." NEVER stop saying that. Say it while you are working on the car, before you go to bed, when you get up in the morning, at lunch time at work, and tell your closest friends that you are only going to fix the problem at hand.

 

Do that and you have a few hours work to fix it.

 

Just once, thinking "As long as I'm in here...", you are in trouble.

Bernie

[NTX5467]

As long as the additional "work" will only take 15 minutes MAX and will make a better repair.  Only ONE "while I'm here" allowed, period!  If there are more, re-evaluation needed.

 

Sometimes, better to do a "while I'm here" than to later "Wish I'd done that while I was there" (as another repair is needed two weeks later).  In general, LESS is BEST . . . for many reasons . . . when possible.

 

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

I came back from a car show and decided to clean some black overspray off my engine compartment wires with lacquer thinner. Someone had buzzed it with a little black to brighten up the engine compartment.

At the point this picture was taken Zero $ and about 3 days had been expended.

 

"Well maybe this one little job."   Sure.

[NTX5467]

I've got a friend who was going to do a little spiffing-up of the underhood of his '69 Dart Swinger 340.  Then, two days before the car show he was getting ready for, we heard that he had the fenders off!  We KNEW the speed at which he worked, so we were concerned as the car had to be at the show by a certain time.  He finally got there, 15 minutes before the doors closed, with enough bolts holding things together to get there.  MUCH work (and our concerns) to make his mind feel better.  He hasn't lived that down yet (about 20 years later)!!

 

NTX5467

[Guest biodegraded]

On 4/8/2017 at 10:46 PM, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Kiljoy here!  Zero compression and a lot of crankcase vapors may be a piston with a hole. When you DO the test as EmTee suggested, if the hissing is from the crankcase vents, guess what?

 

  Where are you located?

 

  Ben

 

Ben, I thought of that, too. Especially if a stuck valve impacted the cylinder head.  But I was just trying to keep my head at least a little way in the sand.  But I wasn't sure how I would be able to tell other than if I fixed a stuck valve and still got zero compression.  Thanks for the suggestion about checking the vent tube for the hissing.

 

I'm in Maryland, just outside DC.

 

 

On 4/9/2017 at 10:47 AM, 60FlatTop said:

Pull the head and keep repeating "I am only going to fix what I find wrong." NEVER stop saying that. Say it while you are working on the car, before you go to bed, when you get up in the morning, at lunch time at work, and tell your closest friends that you are only going to fix the problem at hand.

 

Do that and you have a few hours work to fix it.

 

Just once, thinking "As long as I'm in here...", you are in trouble.

Bernie

 

I will take that to heart, Bernie.  I don't think it will be too hard for me seeing as how I'm pretty inexperienced and have to learn as I go.  That means I usually take a lot longer just to fix the one thing I started with and never even have time to contemplate adding things to the ToDo list. Little hands wanting to help do make it more memorable, but also add to the length of time required to finish a job (see pics). 

 

Thanks to everyone for all the advice and help.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by biodegraded
Added pics (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

If I lived closer I would help.

 

I would even introduce you to my barber. I stopped in yesterday, pulled out my smart phone, and said "Make me look like this guy."

 

My Wife said he did a good job.

Bernie

[Guest biodegraded]

I pulled off the valve cover and looked for signs of a stuck valve.  The rocker arms were moving as expected to my eye, although I didn't measure their movement (see attached videos).  The valves also seemed to be moving up and down appropriately.  I still need to adjust the valve lash according to the specs in the manual, but I also thought about doing a combustion chamber clean just to see if it helps.

 

So my question is, has anyone had luck with the Seafoam top engine cleaner?  Other sites also recommend using the Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner.  I understand how to use the Seafoam (just take off the air cleaner and pour it a little at a time into the carburetor.  But the Mopar product everyone says to spray it into a vacuum line.  Is that what I should do?  How do I do that on the 263?  Or can I just spray it into the carb like the Seafoam?

 

The Mopar is supposed to be a foam that expands.  That being the case, can I just spray it into the plug holes and let it sit without cranking the engine?  Then I would remove the plugs and crank a little to expel any liquid before replacing the plugs and running it.  Thoughts?

IMG_0170.MOV

IMG_0169.MOV

[old-tank]

Combustion cleaners are not necessary and are ineffective.

No stuck valves noted.

Time to get your hands dirty.

[NTX5467]

In other forums, the less alcohol a fuel additive has is preferred.  Seafoam is on that list.  Seafoam only reached the DFW area a few years ago and seemed to be highly-promoted (as indicated by the glowing reports in some forums) by the auto supplies which took on that product line (and the jobbers who sold it to them).  Not to say it doesn't work, but the suddenness of postings tended to indicate it was highly-promoted to the masses.  Kind of like some alternative types of spark plugs!

 

Many current cleaners are more designed to be used as "intake tract cleaners" and "combustion chamber cleaners" on fuel injected engines (which can explain the use of a vacuum line for introduction to the motor).  These can typically increase the heat of combustion to better "burn off" the accumulated carbon deposits in the combustion chamber.  It's a "quick fix", usually with varying results.

 

One thought . . . IF a valve is stuck, then something between the camshaft lobe and the rocker arm will bend or break!  Valve spring pressures can be greater than about100 pounds (seat pressure, valve closed) to several hundred pounds (valve open), so having a really stuck valve in that scenario seems (to me) unlikely.  As the piston moves up and down, there usually is some lateral movement in it, which means the piston rings can move in their respective groove.  Plus the pressure differentials between vacuum and combustion pressure can result in vertical movement in their respective groove.  So "up and down" and "side to side" happen with each engine revolution.

 

What CAN happen is the ring can lose its tension against the cylinder wall so that its particular effectiveness is decreased.  Whether it's the compression ring and/or the oil ring package.  Even so, some degree of effectiveness can still exist, but not at optimal levels.  What CAN also happen is that the oil holes behind the oil ring package can become clogged with time, so the oil ring pack's effectiveness can be decreased.  Similar with the other rings, too.  Related build-ups behind the rings can hinder things, too.

 

Trying to "fix" these things with an "overhaul in a can", IF the problem areas have been there or have been building up with time, can improve some aspects of things, but not totally "fix" things.

 

End result . . . old-tank's short answer above.

 

Please keep us posted on what you find.

 

NICE looking Buick!  Especially the Frenching of the portholes!  Lots of beaming pride in those photos!

 

NTX5467

Edited April 27, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Guest biodegraded]

Thanks for the advice.  I went ahead and tried the Seafoam.  I think it's obvious that I'm stalling on pulling the head.  As expected, Seafoam didn't do much. But all the mosquitoes in the neighborhood are dead now, so at least there's that.

 

I guess I'll eventually have to come to terms with removing the head, but I'm hesitant because it might be too big of a job for my experience level.  But it will be a learning experience for sure, so I think I'll just bite the bullet and do it.  Given that I'm nervous about my abilities to do everything right the first time, I was considering a reusable head gasket.  A friend recommended I use one in case I have to pull the head again for whatever reason.  

 

Do they make reusable head gaskets for the 263?  Anybody have any experience with them or info for online vendors?

[Guest biodegraded]

So I did the compressed air test that was suggested and bad news -- the air was coming out of the vent tube. So that means either a hole in the piston or very bad rings. 

 

The manual says to pull the head and remove pistons from the top when doing a ring job. It also says to remove any shoulder on the cylinder wall that may have been worn in as it could damage the piston when removing. I don't have a way to remove any shoulder on the cylinder wall.

 

Question 1: how likely is it that I will have to grind or ream down a shoulder if this engine has never been rebuilt?

 

Question 2: Is it possible to remove the piston from below to avoid this step?

[Roadmaster75]

Neat car!

If taking out from the top.......

No need to be afraid of taking out the ridge at the top of the cylinder.

 

Rent , borrow, or buy a small hand reamer.  You'll have that ridge leveled in minutes.

 

Getting the oil pan down so you can push out the offending piston remains will be covered in detail

by my Buick brothers here shortly, I'm sure.  

 

You will then get to pull out the busted piston pieces and scrape out

the thick layer of gray/black splooge from your pan.

 

No need to fear this job.......just good advice from the boys here, a good helper, good tools,

and good common sense.   And, lastly ..... if you can't see daylight through the other pistons on that bank....

leave 'em in there and enjoy driving that car.  Mr.  Bond got it right!

 

 

 

 

[avgwarhawk]

3 hours ago, biodegraded said:

So I did the compressed air test that was suggested and bad news -- the air was coming out of the vent tube. So that means either a hole in the piston or very bad rings. 

 

The manual says to pull the head and remove pistons from the top when doing a ring job. It also says to remove any shoulder on the cylinder wall that may have been worn in as it could damage the piston when removing. I don't have a way to remove any shoulder on the cylinder wall.

 

Question 1: how likely is it that I will have to grind or ream down a shoulder if this engine has never been rebuilt?

 

Question 2: Is it possible to remove the piston from below to avoid this step?

 

 

1. Use a hone stone for a drill to remove the shoulder in the cylinder.  

 

2. Removing from the bottom is probably tough.  Not to mention the piston rings should be installed with the piston from the top.  It would be  hell from the bottom with  crank in .  

 

This on a drill will remove the ridge at the top of the cylinder.  Need it to cross hatch the cylinder when ready to install the new rings.  Good tool you need for this job.  Plenty of youtube videos on how to use it.   

 

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[old-tank]

9 hours ago, Roadmaster75 said:

 

Rent , borrow, or buy a small hand reamer.  You'll have that ridge leveled in minutes.

 

6 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

 

1. Use a hone stone for a drill to remove the shoulder in the cylinder.  

 

 

This on a drill will remove the ridge at the top of the cylinder.  Need it to cross hatch the cylinder when ready to install the new rings.  Good tool you need for this job.  Plenty of youtube videos on how to use it.   

 

 

Remove the carbon on the upper cylinder with a scraper and scotchbrite.  If you can easily catch a fingernail on a ridge (meaning the it is over 0.010 wear in the cylinder), then the block should be bored.

If you own a ridge reamer, throw it away...if not then run!  Proper installation of the tool requires a straight cylinder bore; most are out of round  and tapered and will result over cutting and ruining the cylinder.

Hopefully a hone will clean it up, but the bore should be carefully measured since in the past it may have had a ridge previously removed.

[NTX5467]

The cylinder wall "finish" can relate to the rings used in it.  I know it sounds counter to all I've read, but I had a friend that was in the vehicle wholesale business.  Buying at one auction and taking to another distant auction for resale.  He had the somewhat common Chevy C-30 "2 car hauler" that was common in the later 1970s, with the requisite Chevy 454 V-8.  

 

Once, he was getting oil consumption issues, determined to be from the rings, so he pulled the engine apart and just put in new chrome-moly rings.  NO touch of any cylinder bore hone, just check the end gap and put everything back together.  It worked!  I asked my engine machine shop associate about that and he reminded me that a chrome-moly ring needs a smoother surface against which to work than a normal chrome piston ring.  Therefore, that "quick rebuild" worked just fine with that type of ring on a used engine with no cylinder wall scoring or "issues".  Then, it all made sense.  That particular engine had been rebuild by my associate a few years ago and had accumulated about 250K since then.  Everything "inside" was known-good, just with a little wear.  I suspect that as those 454s could run a little hotter in that use, with time, the tension of the rings might have decreased to allow for increased oil consumption.  Therefore, all that was needed new rings of the correct type.

 

Might not work that well for others, but in this case, it did.  Key thing, to me, was that when the engine was rebuilt, it was done by a machinist that could do Chevy engines and do them RIGHT without thinking about it.  Therefore, everything inside the engine was "known" with great machine work.  This might not be the case of an initial engine rebuild from factory condition, but worn.  Tommy knew how to build an engine that would last in that use, which was a huge asset!  Although it was a common "plus .030" rebuild, dead-on machine work and quality assembly made it work better than new.

 

NTX5467

[Guest biodegraded]

Finally pulled the head and found a piston with two holes burned through the edge. Any idea what could have caused this? I don't want to put a new piston in only to have it happen again. 

 

I've taken the head to a machine shop to have the valves done in case they had anything to do with it (although they didn't show any particular signs). 

 

Next I'll drop the pan and pull the piston to see what the rest of the damage is. But thought I'd ask for any help diagnosing before I proceed. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by biodegraded (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

Detonation would be my answer to hole in the edge of the piston.  I would be interested in seeing what the rings on this piston look like at or near the hole.

Edited May 27, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

Looks kind of strange, right on the edge and all.  Detonation, I believe, typically hits the weakest part of the piston, which is usually in the center of the crown (as there is less under-side support there) rather than on an edge, which should have some of the greatest metal strength under it.

 

I've seen some pistons with a small notch in the edge, to indicate the front of the engine, but haven't seen or heard of that causing any problems.  Don't see that on those pistons, though.  There would have had to have been a sustained "hot spot" there or repeated for a LOONG time to melt the metal, as the small bead around the edge might suggest.  Unusual!

 

NTX5467

Edited May 27, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Beemon]

It' looks like there's chipping around the edge of the first piston, too.

[60FlatTop]

You know the other head needs to come off and all those pistons looked at closely.

 

The location of that hole is interesting, right at the closest point to the adjacent cylinder. Just out of curiosity, are two exhaust valves side by side above that hole? If they are I would be tempted to put a dial indicator on the two cam lobes. Just thinkin'.

Bernie

[NTX5467]

Now that I opened that picture in "A New Tab" and got to enlarge it significantly, there appears to be LOTS of carbon on the piston crowns.  And carbon flakes everywhere.  I didn't see any issues with the adjacent piston, but some heavy "marks" from the top of that cylinder wall downward, for about 2 inches (from carbon flakes?).  Nothing that a little "dressing" won't take out, though.

 

What I'm now wondering about is the condition of the compression ring, as it appears the "hole" goes that deep into the top of the piston's edge.

 

From the carbon accumulation on the piston crowns, I suspect it might be best to go ahead and take the engine all the way "down", not vat it specifically, but do a thorough clean-up on the engine stand, including "wire brush action" to clean the piston crowns and head gasket surfaces (just a light cleaning, not a heavy "gouging" clean).  That way, you'll know what's really there and can then reassemble knowing for sure how things really are internally.

 

Be sure to keep all bearings with their correct journals and connecting rods!!!  IF there were not any lower-end noises, everything should be good down there.  IF you find any issues, though, things can change as to what is the next step.

 

Please keep us posted!

NTX5467

[Guest biodegraded]

Thanks everyone for the input. 

 

To clarify the pictures, both are of the same piston. It has two holes in it. Both on the edge about 130 degrees apart. There are also some serious gouges on the crown of the piston. Some are black, covered in carbon. Some are shiny metal. 

 

If the rings are broken it there was some other significant damage to the rings, could that produce these kind of holes? I was thinking if all the combustion pressure was escaping past the broken rings in one spot continuously, that might create enough of a convective hot spot to burn a hole like this. But this is truthfully the first piston I've ever examined in my life, so I'm just guessing. 

 

Bernie, this is the 263 straight 8, so there is no other head to pull. What would I be looking for on the cam lobes? Undersized lobes that would indicate valves not closing? 

 

Thanks for the suggestion about taking the block all the way down, NTX, but I think I will have to pass. I'm doing all this in my driveway (don't even have a garage). I think I'm going to visually inspect all the cylinder walls, do a ball hone on the one bad cylinder, put a new piston and rings in that one and just go for it. 

[Bob Engle]

I have to jump in and comment on the use of ridge reamers.  The ridge forms because the top ring can't wipe to the top of the cylinder.  If the reamer is set to only cut the ridge, you can't destroy the cylinder.  The purpose for removing the ridge is to allow the piston to come out the top without causing any damage.  You can use a hone, but care must also be used as the hone stones are spring loaded to conform to the full cylinder wall.  The ridge is a smaller diameter than the cylinder wall and so contact will initially be on the ridge and the bottom edge of the stone so cutting is done on the ridge and bottom edge on the cylinder wall.  

 

Millions of cylinders have been ridge reamed without any damage.  Improper use of either method can cause damage to the cylinder wall.  Since the piston is already damaged, we are not concerned with preventing damage to the piston.

 

Bob Engle

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

On 5/26/2017 at 10:57 PM, biodegraded said:

Finally pulled the head and found a piston with two holes burned through the edge. Any idea what could have caused this? I don't want to put a new piston in only to have it happen again. 

 

I've taken the head to a machine shop to have the valves done in case they had anything to do with it (although they didn't show any particular signs). 

 

Next I'll drop the pan and pull the piston to see what the rest of the damage is. But thought I'd ask for any help diagnosing before I proceed. 

 

 Corbin, I do not see an oversize marked on that piston, so one can assume standard size. I have one you can have if you will PM your address. If you REALLY want to go inexpensive {cheap?] just use the rings that are on it.

 

  Ben

[60FlatTop]

Somehow I got '56 V8 stuck in my head. Is that cylinder #8?

 

 Edit. Oh, that's the topic three down, just saw it.

Bernie

Edited May 28, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Guest biodegraded]

1 hour ago, Bob Engle said:

I have to jump in and comment on the use of ridge reamers.  The ridge forms because the top ring can't wipe to the top of the cylinder.  If the reamer is set to only cut the ridge, you can't destroy the cylinder.  The purpose for removing the ridge is to allow the piston to come out the top without causing any damage.  You can use a hone, but care must also be used as the hone stones are spring loaded to conform to the full cylinder wall.  The ridge is a smaller diameter than the cylinder wall and so contact will initially be on the ridge and the bottom edge of the stone so cutting is done on the ridge and bottom edge on the cylinder wall.  

 

Millions of cylinders have been ridge reamed without any damage.  Improper use of either method can cause damage to the cylinder wall.  Since the piston is already damaged, we are not concerned with preventing damage to the piston.

 

Bob Engle

Thanks for the advice, Bob. Since the piston is toast and the ridge doesn't actually feel very bad, I'm going to try to take out the cylinder without using the ridge reamer. I know there is still a risk of the new rings impacting the ridge and getting damaged, so I'll consider what to do about that and may still do a very light reaming if I think it's necessary. But first I'll try scotch brite and elbow grease to see if that's enough. As for the finger style hone, I get your point about the stones contacting the ridge and the cylinder wall. The machine shop recommended the ball style hone since they don't remove as much material as the finger style. So I think I'll do the ball style before putting the new piston in (not to remove the ridge). 

[Guest biodegraded]

1 hour ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 Corbin, I do not see an oversize marked on that piston, so one can assume standard size. I have one you can have if you will PM your address. If you REALLY want to go inexpensive {cheap?] just use the rings that are on it.

 

  Ben

Thanks very much for the generous offer, Ben. I will PM you my address. Since I'm not exactly sure what happened to this piston, I'm thinking I should go ahead and spring for new rings. Looking at oldbuickparts.com. Planning to follow the manual to check for proper clearances on the rings. Anything else I need to look out for when putting new rings in? 

 

Corbin

[Guest biodegraded]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

Somehow I got '56 V8 stuck in my head. Is that cylinder #8?

 

 Edit. Oh, that's the topic three down, just saw it.

Bernie

Bernie, it's the cylinder closest to the radiator. Is that #1 or #8?

[NTX5467]

The rings are "spring loaded", so to speak so they hold tension against the cylinder wall.  The "ridge" is created as the piston rocks a little as it attains TDC and then starts a downward motion. The top of the ridge would be the "standard bore" size (or whatever bore size the engine might be now), but from below the ridge, it might be .010" oversize (or similar).

 

As for "sizing" the rings,  other than to match the size of the cylinder bore, you can use a Allen wrench socket to push the ring down into the open cylinder bore and check the resulting end gap with a feeler gauge.  Do this with each ring set so the end gaps all match, or at least are not tighten than specs.  If too tight of a gap, file between the edges (there is a special tool to gently do this with, which machine shops that do that work use . . . cut and try until correct.  In many cases, the supplied rings will have "the gap" within the specified range, but check it to be sure.

 

The "dingleberry" flex hone is mainly to put the crosshatch back on the cylinder wall, not for metal removal (as the "stone hone" can do.  The dingleberry hone is specific to the diameter of the bore itself AND they do wear out (the "balls" becoming flat on one side or breaking off).

 

Please keep us posted on what yo find.

 

NTX5467

[avgwarhawk]

12 minutes ago, biodegraded said:

Bernie, it's the cylinder closest to the radiator. Is that #1 or #8?

 

Interesting. Has this engine over heated at one time starting a issue on this cylinder that progressively got worse?   Sometimes head gaskets survive extreme overheating but mechanical parts take the brunt. I fried the valve closest to the radiator on my 231. 

[Guest biodegraded]

28 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

Interesting. Has this engine over heated at one time starting a issue on this cylinder that progressively got worse?   Sometimes head gaskets survive extreme overheating but mechanical parts take the brunt. I fried the valve closest to the radiator on my 231. 

Hasn't overheated on my watch that I know of (which has only been about 8 months). I didn't notice anything weird on the head gasket either. I did have some exhaust leaks at the manifold. I didn't think they were near this cylinder, though. I didn't think an exhaust leak could affect the pistons, but I'm having the machine shop check the manifold for warpage anyway. 

 

But speaking of over heating, I tried real hard to carefully remove the temp bulb without breaking it, but ended up breaking off the thin copper capillary tube. The car is modified so I'm not too concerned about keeping everything correct and I'm willing to replace with something modern. The sensor tube is still stuck in the head. Any advice on how to get the sensor tube out of the head and what to replace it with that's readily available?

Edited May 28, 2017 by biodegraded (see edit history)

[Guest biodegraded]

28 minutes ago, NTX5467 said:

The rings are "spring loaded", so to speak so they hold tension against the cylinder wall.  The "ridge" is created as the piston rocks a little as it attains TDC and then starts a downward motion. The top of the ridge would be the "standard bore" size (or whatever bore size the engine might be now), but from below the ridge, it might be .010" oversize (or similar).

 

As for "sizing" the rings,  other than to match the size of the cylinder bore, you can use a Allen wrench socket to push the ring down into the open cylinder bore and check the resulting end gap with a feeler gauge.  Do this with each ring set so the end gaps all match, or at least are not tighten than specs.  If too tight of a gap, file between the edges (there is a special tool to gently do this with, which machine shops that do that work use . . . cut and try until correct.  In many cases, the supplied rings will have "the gap" within the specified range, but check it to be sure.

 

The "dingleberry" flex hone is mainly to put the crosshatch back on the cylinder wall, not for metal removal (as the "stone hone" can do.  The dingleberry hone is specific to the diameter of the bore itself AND they do wear out (the "balls" becoming flat on one side or breaking off).

 

Please keep us posted on what yo find.

 

NTX5467

Thanks for the tips on sizing the rings, NTX. I really appreciate everyone's help. My first time getting into an engine and everyone's advice has given me enough confidence to keep going. 

 

I'll keep folks updated.  

Edited May 28, 2017 by biodegraded (see edit history)