CAUTION! Newer cars can be hacked and sabotaged remotely

[John_S_in_Penna]

Here's something that will make you appreciate your

older cars better:  Newly released reports have demonstrated

that new cars can be hacked and controlled remotely.

Anyone from afar with special knowledge can disable

your brakes, control your steering, unlock your car, etc.

In fact, the American C.I.A., it is reported, has been

developing these techniques to create car accidents

and "assassinate" people in a way that can't be detected.

 

Watch the video on this link: 

http://dennismichaellynch.com/video-hackers-take-vehicle-highway/

 

Here's a link to a British website with similar information:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/year-zero-series-wikileaks-cia-9982483?service=responsive

 

We don't get into politics in this forum, but this is certainly

a car-related topic with extremely important ramifications.

It makes one want to go out and buy a 1979 Chevrolet for

extra enjoyment and comfort.

Edited March 10, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[keiser31]

Let 'em hack THIS....

[dei]

WOW!

And my wife thinks I'm paranoid with internet banking....

[plymouthcranbrook]

God Bless my 1980 Volare. Finally, some respect!

[joe_padavano]

Why are people surprised by this? If the car has wireless connectivity, it CAN be hacked. Same with your phone, computer, NEST thermostat, connected appliances, etc, etc. Tell me why your fridge needs an internet connection. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

46 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

Why are people surprised by this? If the car has wireless connectivity, it CAN be hacked. Same with your phone, computer, NEST thermostat, connected appliances, etc, etc. Tell me why your fridge needs an internet connection. 

 

I guess you're right, Joe.  But more people are seeing

this for the first time, since Wikileaks came out recently.

And they said that the C.I.A. was planning to kill people

(or maybe actually doing it) by controlling their cars--

something I had never heard before.  And to date,

NOTHING that Wikileaks has ever released has been 

proven incorrect.

 

There were other illegal (and unconstitutional) warrantless

spying acts revealed  by that Wikileaks--on some of the topics

you mention, plus "smart" televisions--but they're not on our

forum's automotive topic.

Edited March 10, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

I'm involved in safety assessments of gov't systems. Cybersecurity is a BIG deal, especially for safety critical software. Tesla brags about being able to update software wirelessly. News flash: if they can do that, so can hackers. That is NOT a feature.

Edited March 10, 2017 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Joe, it sounds like you're very alert.

I hope other people start to realize this too.

[joe_padavano]

There's a reason why our missile silos still use floppy discs, and we should all be thankful for that.

[EmTee]

7 minutes ago, joe_padavano said:

I'm involved in safety assessments of gov't systems. Cybersecurity is a BIG deal, especially for safety critical software. Tesla brags about being able to update software wirelessly. Need flash: if they can do that, so can hackers. That is NOT a feature.

 

Simply disconnect the satellite antenna and install a 50 Ohm termination.  You'll lose functionality and wireless vulnerability.

[joe_padavano]

20 minutes ago, EmTee said:

 

Simply disconnect the satellite antenna and install a 50 Ohm termination.  You'll lose functionality and wireless vulnerability.

I don't know (not frankly do I care) how integrated these systems are to the rest of the operating system. On most newer cars, the loss of one system usually sets off alarms and triggers default modes in the rest of the system.

Edited March 10, 2017 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[EmTee]

1 minute ago, joe_padavano said:

On most newer cars, the loss of one system usually sets off alarms and triggers default modes in the rest of the system.

 

Well, if today's cars require continuous Internet connectivity to function, then we're in deeper trouble than I thought.  Probably explains that "why do I feel like I'm being watched" feeling, though... 

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, EmTee said:

Simply disconnect the satellite antenna and install a 50 Ohm termination.  You'll lose functionality and wireless vulnerability.

 

On many new cars, so many functions go through

the "touch-screen" on the dashboard, without actual

knobs or other controls.  Would disconnecting things

the way you say render other things inoperable?

 

It sounds like a good idea, though.

[60FlatTop]

I advertised on Craigslist for a programmer to cyber secure my truck on board devices and clear the fuel vapor canister light from my truck. I was contacted by an out of work German who said he used to work on diesel Volkswagens. Seems good so far, but I do drive a little to the right in case I have to ditch it.

Bernie

[Guest Skyking]

I had this figured out when the tire pressures in my new Equinox appeared on an email.  Scary crap!

[Guest BillP]

 

[Guest BillP]

This pervasive tech intrusion is certainly much more serious than we CAN imagine. As we who are now in our 60s, 70s and 80s fade out, a real danger to those following is that they have grown up with, and become not only accustomed to, but comfortable with having lost a large degree of personal autonomy and freedom. Frequently, what is embraced today as the cool new gadget or app or system becomes a method to influence if not control. To a large degree, this is by design.

To establish relevance with this forum, I am happy to report that I have several computer-illiterate vehicles in my small fleet. 

[60FlatTop]

HAL: "I know I've made some very poor decisions lately"

[MarrsCars]

Well, I hope none of you have drawn the ire of the CIA so much that they are targeting you, but if they really wanted to take you out they would simply aim a self-driving, fully-loaded, semi tractor into your vintage "unhackable" car. What about when we all have nothing but autonomous cars? They can just redirect the car and deliver you right to their doorstep.

 

I remember 10-tears ago when I was putting tape over my computer and later phone cameras and literally everyone I knew thought I was nuts. I would suggest leaving phones out of the room during sensitive business conversations, and holding them outside of spaces with smart TVs, etc., but yet I was looked at as a weirdo. To me it just made sense that if these machines have the capability, then it will be used, so I'm grateful that people are at least now finally becoming aware of these possibilities. At the end of the day however, as I started this post, unless you are a high value target, meaning a pretty bad dude, you will have nothing to worry about... for now. Maybe in the future a wild dictator will decide to punish all the people of an opposing ideology and drive them to prisons in their very own autonomous cars, but let's hope that's a futuristic science fiction vision more than a nearer-term prediction.

[joe_padavano]

3 hours ago, EmTee said:

 

Well, if today's cars require continuous Internet connectivity to function, then we're in deeper trouble than I thought.  Probably explains that "why do I feel like I'm being watched" feeling, though... 

My point wasn't that the vehicles need CONTINUOUS connectivity (though that IS coming with V2V systems that are being proposed).  My point was that the vehicle has built-in test functions that will detect a permanent loss of connectivity and react accordingly.  As others have noted, diagnostic (and presumably, driving history) data gets transmitted now without your knowledge (or at least without your explicit opting-out).  Tesla (and other vehicle manufacturers) requires the connectivity to upload software patches and updates. This will only become more pervasive.  What I don't understand is how can anyone who's ever used a Microsoft product think that computers are infallible?

 

As for the "being watched" feeling, I remain amazed by people who voluntarily use those Progressive Snapshot and similar data loggers.  Do you REALLY want your insurance company to have minute-by-minute records of everything you do behind the wheel?  Keep in mind the information that is available through the ALDL connector - vehicle speed, throttle position, engine RPM, and on newer vehicles, steering angle, brake force, ABS and traction control data, etc, etc.  That can't end well. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[28 Chrysler]

The auto industry is working on left turn assistance where the on board computer can over ride the driver,  ( 2020- 2022 target date)

[60FlatTop]

All the the new cars have adaptive learning features and some fuzzy logic installed. They learn.

Get one of these installed on the output of your 12 volt power source: http://www.ebay.com/itm/interVOLT-Rugged-12V-5A-DC-Voltage-Stabilizer-Regulator-Power-Conditioner-/252777612777

Condition your vehicle to receive a smooth supply of clean power to the ECM and related processors. Then, with your phone close by so it knows it's you, bypass the conditioner and feed it dirty power for a couple of days. Reconnect the conditioner. It will figure out, from your phone proximity, that it is you. Do it a few of times over a week or two. If a light flickers or you sense suspicious activity, bypass it. Once it knows who is Boss it will ignore the dark side. Computers have been an everyday part of my job since 1974. My dog knows the crackle of a fortune cookie wrapper and my computer knows when I am going to jump something with a resistor.

"Those whom subscribe to conspiracy theories give way to much credit to the supposed conspirators." quoting myself, oh, God. Bernie

[John_S_in_Penna]

36 minutes ago, MarrsCars said:

...To me it just made sense that if these machines have the capability, then it will be used, so I'm grateful that people are at least now finally becoming aware of these possibilities. At the end of the day however, as I started this post, unless you are a high value target, meaning a pretty bad dude, you will have nothing to worry about... for now. ...

 

While we're enjoying scenic drives in our old cars, taking

families on tours, bringing youth into our club, others aren't

up to such honorable purposes.

 

Mr. Marrs, your alertness is good.  However, the people using

this advanced technology are evidently a step ahead of you.

And I read that Joseph Goebbels said the same thing, claiming that

if you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

 

See this link and listen to the interview between newsman Sean Hannity

and an NSA "whistleblower" named Binney.  Forget any political tones,

and listen specifically to minutes 2:20 to 3:30 on the tape:

 

 http://dennismichaellynch.com/nsa-whistleblower-drops-bombshell-hannity-surveillance-practices/

 

“Are you saying that every American can be wiretapped against their will without any warning at any point?” Hannity asked.

“NO. I’m saying they ARE,” Binney replied.

“You mean I have been wiretapped” asked Hannity. “Repeatedly?”

“Yes,” Binney replied.

Hannity then asked, “And by wiretapping, that means what? Recording my phone conversations, taking my emails, my texts?”

Binney responded, “That’s correct, and also storing it for mining.”

 

Now, folks, tell us more how to disconnect modern cars!

Edited March 10, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

33 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

All the the new cars have adaptive learning features and some fuzzy logic installed. They learn.

 

And I'll never own one of those.  In fact, I'm just finishing up my new daily driver - a 1967 Delta 88.

 

As I like to tell people, my cars will still run after the EMP comes.

[JACK M]

Geez, This is one scary thread.

My decision as to whether I should buy a new pick up or not has so much more to consider.

Back a few years when you could get your car unlocked, or a wreck detected was scary enough. But to consider that your car could be hijacked while in it with the doors locked brings up a whole new set of worries.

I have often considered what kind of a world I (we) am leaving to my kids and grand kids, but now I am on overload.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Jack, it's important to be aware, but it's a bit comforting

to know that these abuses are being exposed.  Being

thrust into the light helps destroy them, more than their

existence in secret. 

 

Every era has its serious challenges.  Don't let these things

ruin your enjoyment.  Keep up the enjoyment of your hobby,

and maybe fix up your old truck!

 

May everyone be wiser than serpents, and harmless as doves!

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

... In fact, I'm just finishing up my new daily driver - a 1967 Delta 88.

 

Joe, do you have any pictures (before or after) to show

your 1967 Oldsmobile?  I think its grille is distinctive.

I never used to appreciate the grille's complexity, but now I do.

And that car doesn't have a computer to control it, but has

actual physical connections between the pedals and the

mechanics, between the steering wheel and the steering box.

Edited March 10, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

39 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

Joe, do you have any pictures (before or after) to show

your 1967 Oldsmobile?  I think its grille is distinctive.

I never used to appreciate the grille's complexity, but now I do.

And that car doesn't have a computer to control it, but has

actual physical connections between the pedals and the

mechanics, between the steering wheel and the steering box.

Here are the "before" pictures.  Paint and upholstery will probably not happen until later this summer.  FYI, the spots on the front fender are where the old paint peeled off and the prior owner sprayed clear to prevent rust.  Those fog lights were the first things to go!

 

The car now has had everything in the suspension, steering, and brakes replaced.  I also installed a correct factory style dual exhaust (the cobbled together one in it previously was less than satisfactory). Since pipes for this car are not readily available (and I wanted larger than the stock 2" tailpipes), I built my own tail pipes from mandrel bends.  I lucked into a set of manifold-to-muffler pipes on ebay. Just finishing up the exhaust and tune up/carb rebuild now. The car is amazingly rust free, especially since I bought it in Chicago! Truth be told, the seller actually had gotten it from Arkansas and hadn't driven it in winter.

 

 

Edited March 10, 2017 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Nice Oldsmobile, and one that isn't often seen!

Everyone else is busy with Cutlass 4-4-2's.

 

If enough people become aware of new cars' vulnerabilities,

they might demand cars that weren't outwardly connected.

And demand could mean actual production.

[JACK M]

22 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

Jack, it's important to be aware, but it's a bit comforting

to know that these abuses are being exposed.  Being

thrust into the light helps destroy them, more than their

existence in secret. 

 

Every era has its serious challenges.  Don't let these things

ruin your enjoyment.  Keep up the enjoyment of your hobby,

and maybe fix up your old truck!

 

May everyone be wiser than serpents, and harmless as doves!

 

The old Ford Powerstroke is a 1995 and has 140,000 miles on it.

Always garaged and I only use it on road trips (usually towing).

I get a lot of comments on it and the kids are always asking if I would sell it.

Other comments are that is just getting broken in.

The main reason I want to step up is that I don't much care for the mirrors.

My advice to myself when I got it was that I probably wont ever have to buy another tow rig.

 

Here it is, don't look at the canopy, I only put that on there if I have to keep something dry and I am to cheap to get one that wasn't free...LOL

 

[MarrsCars]

On 3/10/2017 at 9:53 AM, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

“Are you saying that every American can be wiretapped against their will without any warning at any point?” Hannity asked.

“NO. I’m saying they ARE,” Binney replied.

“You mean I have been wiretapped” asked Hannity. “Repeatedly?”

“Yes,” Binney replied.

Hannity then asked, “And by wiretapping, that means what? Recording my phone conversations, taking my emails, my texts?”

Binney responded, “That’s correct, and also storing it for mining.”

 

 

We are on the same page here. We had a friend who worked on the civilian side of these very things and he, too, left his job, I'm told due to ethical objections. I have understood for many years that every digital communication, which is virtually all these days, is "recorded" and stored in vast centers that keep getting built to accommodate all the information we produce on any given day. The point seems to be less of simply listening in on everyone, there just aren't that many employees who could even handle the workload, but that all these emails, texts, phone calls, and even everyday conversations we produce are stored so that someone can go back and look for supporting data if they ever need it on you. Let's say you get arrested for a misdemeanor, they can check all these records to backtrack and see what you did in the past that they may have missed, and you can see how quickly this can of worms gets opened. Let's say you've become a thorn in your Congressman's side, maybe he has a buddy in intelligence who can dig through your files and find something that's just enough to contact the authorities to investigate you, and it's been proven already that prosecutors around the country have been given secret info on defendants where they not only fail to disclose this is how it was obtained, illegally I might add, but often they even lie and cover this information totally so it never gets out. There was just an article locally about a man who had child molestation charges dropped against him by the government prosecutors because they weren't willing to reveal how they obtained the info on this guy. You know if they are willing to let an alleged sex offender walk free that they have something worth keeping hidden. 

 

They are even able to do word searches within your phone conversations as they have all been transcribed automatically by computer software so pretty much anything you've said, written or typed can be searched in a database. Want to be even more freaked out? Well, even your conversations held person to person in rooms with smart TVs, computers, phones that are turned off, are still transcribed via their internal microphones and stored no matter if you're in your own home, or out in public. Facial recognition software allows tracking of you from other people's phone cameras as they simply hold them up to talk, not to mention all the closed circuit security cameras surrounding us daily. So you can leave ALL of your devices at home and ride a bike and you can still be tracked and recorded. There's a new system being put in place over some cities that has always-on camera capabilities that would allow for something like tracking a bank robber by simply rewinding the footage to the moment when they left the bank and following the vehicle from there to it's current location. Obviously any car or person can be electronically "tagged" and followed in the same way. The news is talking about Samsung TVs but we have a Vizio and one day I noticed it was transmitting wifi signals, yes transmitting! I unplugged it, still transmitting. I moved it downstairs, still transmitting. The signal it put out was even stronger than the one from my own router. In short, these things we buy today are high tech surveillance devices as well as entertainment sources. Once you know that, and begin to adjust your behavior accordingly, you're able to gain a small part of your freedom back. It wasn't too long ago that one of the former intelligence heads said something along the lines of, "we never would have thought that we could spy on every person in America, and that they would be willing to pay for the surveillance devices themselves" meaning our smart phones and TVs. You can actually do a deep search and find articles discussing the probability of most of these capabilities as far back as 2012, so imagine what the state of the technology actually is today. We probably can't even comprehend the ways we are being watched. (To all those who are paranoid by default, sorry I ruined your day!)

[CarlLaFong]

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

2 hours ago, MarrsCars said:

... I have understood for many years that every digital communication, which is virtually all these days, is "recorded" and stored in vast centers... 

 

They are even able to do word searches within your phone conversations as they have all been transcribed automatically by computer software so pretty much anything you've said, written or typed can be searched in a database. Want to be even more freaked out? Well, even your conversations held person to person in rooms with smart TVs, computers, phones that are turned off, are still transcribed via their internal microphones and stored no matter if you're in your own home, or out in public.... 

 

Thanks for the detail, Marrs.  I wrote only what I read,

and I appreciate more information from someone like you.

Of course, such recording is illegal, unconstitutional,

unconscionable, and immoral--and let's hope someone

cleans house in those parts of government, U. S. and otherwise.

 

So, is it only cellular phone calls that are being recorded,

or regular phones too?  And are regular desktop computers

spying on their owners, or listening to their owners,

beyond what is visible on the computer screen?

 

Also, for those who have the newest cars, how does one

disconnect a "connected" car?

[Bud Tierney]

Disconnect???  You really sure you want to do that??? You don't think that when the signal stops a computer somewhere will look for accident/wrecking reports etc, and if it finds no valid termination of the vehicle will note it in "suspicious vehicles"??

To intelligence people, if you disconnect you obviously have something to hide...it's like putting lots of bars on your windows: everyone wonders what  valuables you're protecting...and your insurance company may well have questions...as well as probably immediately cancelling any factory  guarantees as they can't tell you're not abusing the vehicle

Welcome to the land of the paranoid (even if you're paranoid it doesn't mean they aren't really watching/listening...

[Digger914]

Disconnecting does depend on manufacturer and model. Some are easier than others and you can void factory warranty depending on what you disconnect, if you can disconnect it yourself. It takes some pretty pricy tools to replace the broken radio in your 10 year old car with one from the junk yard and that doesn't require upper level CAN access. If you have those tools you're only a couple hundred bucks away from having some privacy inside your car.

 

"Newest cars" disconnect pretty much the same way as 10 year old cars and depending on make and model, 20 year old cars. Yes, On Star has been around long enough to qualify for collector plates and just because that old On Star analog service is no longer commercially supported doesn't mean it can't be used, it only means that you can't use it. So if you want to have real privacy in your old car, unplug your old On Star and leave your smart phone on the charger at home.

 

Doesn't take a lot of money to protect your new car from the kind of "hacking" a car thief will use to steal it, but it does take time.

 

 

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

Got my tin foil hat on, to funny.

 

[MarrsCars]

16 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

So, is it only cellular phone calls that are being recorded,

or regular phones too?  And are regular desktop computers

spying on their owners, or listening to their owners,

beyond what is visible on the computer screen?

 

Virtually all communications today are digital, meaning that even your landline is transmitted via fibre optics in most cases, and sent via satellite uplinks, etc., so they have all been digitized and thus, more easy to capture/store/parse electronically. Yes, I would say that all computers that are connected to the internet (even wirelessly) have the potential for activating the camera, microphone, and even tracking what you type via a keystroke logging program or simply observing where you navigate to online similar to a browser history. My personal belief it these are in an "always-on" state on many devices but this is debated and some thing they are only activated when needed.

[Ghg]

It's time to buy a horse!

[60FlatTop]

2 hours ago, MarrsCars said:

even tracking what you type via a keystroke logging program

 

A couple guys from the NSA stopped by and disabled mine. They said, maybe, if I learned to type with two fingers at the same time they would hook it up again. I guess they were worming through a port in the high 1000's and the delay in my typing was giving a handshake error that locked up their server while trying to verify the session. I told them I had a similar problem back in '03 right before the northeast power outage, but I thought that was port 403 or 406. That didn't make them happy and they asked who owned the Tahoe like theirs. I said "My Wife." They told me to take a typing class and left. On the porch I heard one of them call me the same thing I call my neighbor.

Bernie

[padgett]

What is scary ? The capability (been around for a while) or the lack of security (making everything risk based when they don't know what the risks are is part of the reason I retired). Do reprogram my cars (lots easier than aircraft flight controls) but so far have not had to disconnect any antennas. OTOH the IOT is big business.

 

Do have one car that will run on alcohol and another that can survive EMP.

 

ps common ports are those below 1024, not familiar with 403 (Oldsmobile) or 406 (Ford), thought the world was on 80 and 443.

 

pps had friends at FANX.

Edited March 12, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)